Old Reloading Books "SCORE"!!

jdscholer · February 9, 2010, 11:02 PM

My good friend brought me a bunch of his old books to add to my library. They'll go good with the old powder that he had previously dropped off. jd

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Uncle Buck · February 9, 2010, 11:19 PM

Just out of curiosity, have you checked the books against the modern loading manuals that have been produced in the last ten years?

I wonder how much has changed in the load department. Nice catch, I would love to find some of the older manuals. We have a used book store here in town and I have a standing order to call if they get any type of reloading manual in.

kraigwy · February 10, 2010, 12:09 AM

The new manuels arnt near as informative as the older books in my opinion.

Yes the powders have changed but not the science. I'm not talking Speer, Lyman, Hornady etc,...............I'm talking about the Masters

FC Ness............Practical Dope for the Big Bores
JR Mattern.........Handloading Ammuntion
Col Wheland.......Why Not Load Your Own
CoL Phil Sharp.....Complete Guide to Reloading

and many others, Cpt Crossman, MG Hatcher, Ingels, etc etc

PCJim · February 10, 2010, 12:11 AM

Good score. I still refer to my Speer #8 & 10 on occasion.

jimkim · February 10, 2010, 08:02 AM

Some of my powder is as old as those manuals. I have Speer #'s 9, 10, and 11. I hope to get Speer 8, and 12 next. Gotta have em all. lol

**Mike Irwin** · February 10, 2010, 08:48 AM

Nice. I have several of those manuals, as well.

Word to the wise, be VERY careful of the plastic spine. They become quite brittle over time. I shattered the spine on my Speer No. 7 a few years ago.

Sevens · February 10, 2010, 09:22 AM

Make sure you definitely cross reference anything you make from the older manuals to new ones. I wouldn't worry about small differences... but some of the big differences are, ummm, B-I-G. .357 Mag in particular used to be loaded quite a bit higher back in the day than these days.

Also, if there's any chance you would be willing to look up one long-gone powder for me in all of these calibers, I'd appreciate it. The powder is Winchester 473AA. The calibers are .380, .38 Special, .357 Mag, 9mm, .44 Mag, and .45 Auto. I know there is some limited data in .38 and .45, but not sure about the others. 473AA is a shotgun powder.

Uncle Buck · February 10, 2010, 09:28 AM

If you do break the plastic spines, take them to an office supply store (like Office Depot or Kinkos) that does custom binding. They can usually replace the spine with one that looks like the original.

SL1 · February 10, 2010, 12:24 PM

Some of the data in those old manuals were NOT pressure-tested. I have an old Lyman spiral-bound manual that lists factory ammo velocities and handload velocities, with one handload given as a "factory duplication load" for each cartridge. In the .357 Magnum section, for some reason this manual chose to use Herco powder to duplicate the factory velocity, and gave what appeared to me to be a MAJOR overload. When I run it in QuickLOAD, I get 70,000 psi! The later Lyman manuals that I have list a much reduced max load for Herco. In the same manual as the 70,000 psi Herco load, the maximums with other powders give pressures in the 45,000 psi range, and lower velocities.

So, be VERY careful if you find a high velocity load in your old manuals that seems to be "to good to be true."

SL1

mkl · February 10, 2010, 12:42 PM

I see you have a copy of Speer #8.

I can tell you from experience that the 38 Special loads on page 367 approach and a few equal .357 Mag pressures.

Compare those loads with modern ones that were developed with accurate pressure measuring equipment.

The third paragraph on page 108 details how they used "pressure signs" to develop the loads in the manual.

Great reference if used with caution and loads are referenced against modern manuals.

zxcvbob · February 10, 2010, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Also, if there's any chance you would be willing to look up one long-gone powder for me in all of these calibers, I'd appreciate it. The powder is Winchester 473AA. The calibers are .380, .38 Special, .357 Mag, 9mm, .44 Mag, and .45 Auto. I know there is some limited data in .38 and .45, but not sure about the others. 473AA is a shotgun powder.

I think I have an old Winchester load book with 473AA in it. I'll check when I get home tonight.

jdscholer · February 10, 2010, 10:33 PM

Believe me, I've got powder to match the age of these books. Here's a picture of a few of them. There are dozens of one pound cans, many of which are still sealed. My favorite ones (which I don't have dozens of) are the old Hercules cans that are shown. That AL-7 is a peach of a pistol powder, but there is only about two pounds left in that can.

Sevens, I haven't found anything yet for your Winchester powders, but I haven't checked everything yet. Generally, these older books show a lot less powders being used than our new books do. jd

zxcvbob · February 10, 2010, 10:45 PM

I have some shotgun data for 473AA, but no pistol data. Sorry.

Sevens · February 10, 2010, 11:19 PM

Those cans are just plain COOL! I'd love to run across some of these somewhere. Not for the powder... sure, it could still be good. Just to sit them down in my man cave. Way cool.

No biggie with the 473AA, guys, I just typically ask... in case anyone has some. I have some limited data in .38 and .45, but it really is a shotgun powder so I don't expect there's much more data out there. I have about four pounds of it that I haven't done anything with in 20 years. I know it's still good.

hangfirew8 · February 11, 2010, 12:17 AM

Col Phil Sharpe? When did he get promoted, posthumously?

-HF

jimkim · February 11, 2010, 09:54 AM

They have some W-473AA data in Speer 11.

9mm Parabellum
88gr HP
6.7-7.1gr

95gr TMJ
5.8-6.5gr

100gr HP
6.1-6.8gr

125gr SP
5.1-5.7gr

125gr RN
3.9-4.4gr

38 Special
148gr BBWC
4.3-4.9

158gr SWC
4.4-4.8gr

110gr HP
5.8-6.5 +P

140gr HP
5.4-6.3gr +P

146gr HP & 150gr TMJ
5.3-6.2gr +P

158gr HP & SP
5.2-5.8gr +P

357 Magnum
140gr HP
8.8-9.8gr

158gr HP & SP
8.3-8.8gr

160gr SP
7.9-8.9gr

41 Magnum
220gr SP
9.0-10.0gr

44 Magnum
240gr SWC
6.5-7.5gr

200gr Magnum HP
14.8-15.8gr Mag Primer

240gr SP, magnum HP, and Magnum SP
13.0-14.0gr Mag Primer

45 ACP
200gr SWC
4.6-5.1gr

230gr RN(lead)
5.9-6.4gr

185gr TMJ Match
5.0-5.5gr

200gr HP
6.2-6.8gr

230gr TMJ
6.0-6.5gr

260gr HP
5.1-6.1gr

45 Colt(Ruger or Contender only)
200gr HP
10.0-11.5gr

225gr HP
10.3-11.3gr

260gr HP
9.6-10.1gr

Sevens · February 11, 2010, 10:07 AM

Thanks a heap, Jim!

kraigwy · February 11, 2010, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Col Phil Sharpe? When did he get promoted, posthumously?

Sorry, just rattling off names from my bookshelf, you are correct, hewas a Capt.

February 9, 2010, 11:19 PM	#2
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Just out of curiosity, have you checked the books against the modern loading manuals that have been produced in the last ten years? I wonder how much has changed in the load department. Nice catch, I would love to find some of the older manuals. We have a used book store here in town and I have a standing order to call if they get any type of reloading manual in. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

February 10, 2010, 12:09 AM	#3
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	The new manuels arnt near as informative as the older books in my opinion. Yes the powders have changed but not the science. I'm not talking Speer, Lyman, Hornady etc,...............I'm talking about the Masters FC Ness............Practical Dope for the Big Bores JR Mattern.........Handloading Ammuntion Col Wheland.......Why Not Load Your Own CoL Phil Sharp.....Complete Guide to Reloading and many others, Cpt Crossman, MG Hatcher, Ingels, etc etc __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

February 10, 2010, 08:48 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Nice. I have several of those manuals, as well. Word to the wise, be VERY careful of the plastic spine. They become quite brittle over time. I shattered the spine on my Speer No. 7 a few years ago. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 10, 2010, 09:22 AM	#7
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Make sure you definitely cross reference anything you make from the older manuals to new ones. I wouldn't worry about small differences... but some of the big differences are, ummm, B-I-G. .357 Mag in particular used to be loaded quite a bit higher back in the day than these days. Also, if there's any chance you would be willing to look up one long-gone powder for me in all of these calibers, I'd appreciate it. The powder is Winchester 473AA. The calibers are .380, .38 Special, .357 Mag, 9mm, .44 Mag, and .45 Auto. I know there is some limited data in .38 and .45, but not sure about the others. 473AA is a shotgun powder. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 10, 2010, 10:45 PM	#13
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	I have some shotgun data for 473AA, but no pistol data. Sorry. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

February 10, 2010, 12:11 AM	#4
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	Good score. I still refer to my Speer #8 & 10 on occasion.

February 10, 2010, 09:28 AM	#8
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	If you do break the plastic spines, take them to an office supply store (like Office Depot or Kinkos) that does custom binding. They can usually replace the spine with one that looks like the original. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

February 10, 2010, 12:24 PM	#9
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Some of the data in those old manuals were NOT pressure-tested. I have an old Lyman spiral-bound manual that lists factory ammo velocities and handload velocities, with one handload given as a "factory duplication load" for each cartridge. In the .357 Magnum section, for some reason this manual chose to use Herco powder to duplicate the factory velocity, and gave what appeared to me to be a MAJOR overload. When I run it in QuickLOAD, I get 70,000 psi! The later Lyman manuals that I have list a much reduced max load for Herco. In the same manual as the 70,000 psi Herco load, the maximums with other powders give pressures in the 45,000 psi range, and lower velocities. So, be VERY careful if you find a high velocity load in your old manuals that seems to be "to good to be true." SL1

February 10, 2010, 12:42 PM	#10
mkl Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Location: DFW area, Texas Posts: 494	I see you have a copy of Speer #8. I can tell you from experience that the 38 Special loads on page 367 approach and a few equal .357 Mag pressures. Compare those loads with modern ones that were developed with accurate pressure measuring equipment. The third paragraph on page 108 details how they used "pressure signs" to develop the loads in the manual. Great reference if used with caution and loads are referenced against modern manuals.

February 10, 2010, 11:19 PM	#14
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Those cans are just plain COOL! I'd love to run across some of these somewhere. Not for the powder... sure, it could still be good. Just to sit them down in my man cave. Way cool. No biggie with the 473AA, guys, I just typically ask... in case anyone has some. I have some limited data in .38 and .45, but it really is a shotgun powder so I don't expect there's much more data out there. I have about four pounds of it that I haven't done anything with in 20 years. I know it's still good. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 11, 2010, 12:17 AM	#15
hangfirew8 Junior Member Join Date: January 30, 2010 Location: Central Maryland Posts: 8	Col Phil Sharpe? When did he get promoted, posthumously? -HF

February 11, 2010, 09:54 AM	#16
jimkim Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2008 Location: middle GA Posts: 326	They have some W-473AA data in Speer 11. 9mm Parabellum 88gr HP 6.7-7.1gr 95gr TMJ 5.8-6.5gr 100gr HP 6.1-6.8gr 125gr SP 5.1-5.7gr 125gr RN 3.9-4.4gr 38 Special 148gr BBWC 4.3-4.9 158gr SWC 4.4-4.8gr 110gr HP 5.8-6.5 +P 140gr HP 5.4-6.3gr +P 146gr HP & 150gr TMJ 5.3-6.2gr +P 158gr HP & SP 5.2-5.8gr +P 357 Magnum 140gr HP 8.8-9.8gr 158gr HP & SP 8.3-8.8gr 160gr SP 7.9-8.9gr 41 Magnum 220gr SP 9.0-10.0gr 44 Magnum 240gr SWC 6.5-7.5gr 200gr Magnum HP 14.8-15.8gr Mag Primer 240gr SP, magnum HP, and Magnum SP 13.0-14.0gr Mag Primer 45 ACP 200gr SWC 4.6-5.1gr 230gr RN(lead) 5.9-6.4gr 185gr TMJ Match 5.0-5.5gr 200gr HP 6.2-6.8gr 230gr TMJ 6.0-6.5gr 260gr HP 5.1-6.1gr 45 Colt(Ruger or Contender only) 200gr HP 10.0-11.5gr 225gr HP 10.3-11.3gr 260gr HP 9.6-10.1gr __________________ Jan. 4, 2007 gasoline $2.10 gal....HMMM?

February 11, 2010, 10:07 AM	#17
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Thanks a heap, Jim! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.