Uberti Colt 1851 Navy issues with handspring

Vintage · July 8, 2007, 04:46 AM

My father just got this gun from Taylor and Company through a local retailer. They didn't have one and stock and ordered it for him. It is a sweet gun with a square back trigger, steel frame with brass back strap.

When we took it out on the range we had issues with two things, caps, which actually fell into the action due to the design of the Navy's slope that the hammer rests on. The second was the cylinder not turning after being fired a couple of times. We had to "prod" it abit to get it to turn.

The first issue I think we can resolve with Thunder Ridge Nipples, which I ordered for him, the second on was caused by I believe two things:

Shards of the caps falling back into the gun's action and the barrel tense that is adjusted by the wedge. I believe he had the wedge driven all the way in.

Due to these issues, he was frustrated with the gun and was ready to "junk" it. But after watching a show on Wild Bill and how versatile he was with this model and how he never converted it to cartridge, I knew that allot of this was due to our "user" error.

The handspring broke. Taylor and Company is actually sending us a replacement of the handspring since the gun is under a year warranty. After describing the issue, their gunsmith knew what it was. When we point the gun down at the ground the cylinder would turn, pointing it level it would not.

I noticed a thread about Colt actions? Are there any modifications one could make to insure that this won't happen again and my next question is how far do most of you drive the wedge in for the barrel/cylinder tension?

I am sure both the cap issue and the barrel/cylinder tension attributed to the demise of the handspring, plus it was probably on a self for some time and could have gotten brittle.

It, like I said is a sweet little gun and I think it would do my dad well. He is in his late 70's and new to black powder. He likes the Navy model for its sqarre back trigger because his fingers are so thick and the Remington tends to hurt his knuckle when he fires.

Any suggestions about the handspring and other modifications would be welcome. We have considered converting it to a .38 conversion cylinder but he isn't at the point he wants to spend that kind of money yet.

mec · July 8, 2007, 06:57 AM

This is a "sticky" on thehighroad
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=137102

The hand spring seems to be the most likely to break on current revolvers. It used to be the cylinder/bolt spring but the heat treatment has gotten better now and those springs have been modified to avoid sharp corners that contribute to breakage. Often, when the hand spring breaks it happens early as with your gun. You're spare part may very well hold up for a long time.

One navy sized revolvers, they generally sell the hand and spring assembly together. It is likely that that is what you will get from Taylors. The hands are usually a bit oversized and have to be fitted. (see sticky}

These revolvers are often a bit tight when new but smooth out with a little shooting and handling. If the wedge is too tight it will interfer with cycling the revolver. There's no set rule about how far to shove in the wedge but It should be loose enough for the cylinder to spin freely. A little back and forth movement of the cylinder is not harmful.

Holdng the gun at a barrel-down angle generally allows the caps to ride past the breach and fall out of the capping window.Twisting the gun to the right encourages the fragment to fall free. Some people raise the gun over head and give it a flip to dislodge the cap. When I do that, I get more caps bouncing down the hammer and into the action. There was a guy on "Tails of the Gun " who was adept at speed shooting. He was working two navies fast and you could see him dip the barrels when he cocked the revolvers.

Vintage · July 9, 2007, 06:56 AM

Thanks for the info. Went over the sticky and it has much useful and needed info.

My father is going to have to handle the gun more like a time piece than like the workhorse remmies we have. He was thumbing the hammer back hard and with the shards in the action and us digging them out I imagine we didn't help the situation much.

I think the nipple replacements will help allot.

Gunfixr · July 12, 2007, 05:08 PM

I've done some action work on a few percussion revolvers for Cowboy Action shooters, and fitting from gun to gun can be quite different. Generally, rotating the gun to the right will fix this problem. Also, after about the second cylinder full, enough fouling has built up on the face of the hammer to make it sticky, so it will pull the fired caps back with it when cocked, whereupon half the time they then fall into the action. A pin installed into the frame that goes into the split of the hammer face ends this problem once and for all. As mentioned, the wedge should be snug, but a small amount of end play on the cylinder is helpful. Usually they are way too tight from the factory. I usually fit them to the point to where you can push them in until the spring hook just comes out the other side, and then remove it by thumb pressure as well.

James K · July 12, 2007, 09:01 PM

One way to set the wedge is to insert a feeler gauge between the rear of the barrel and cylinder, then tap the wedge in until you can just get the feeler gauge out. .010 should work OK. If you don't want to use or carry a good feeler gauge, you can make one of about that thickness out of scrap steel like an old piece of strapping.

I have successfully made wire hand springs for those guns, but I don't think I can easily describe how to do it.

BTW, springs don't get brittle from sitting on the shelf; they are brittle because they aren't made right.

Jim

Malamute · July 26, 2007, 12:22 AM

I recently saw mentioned converting the flat spring (hand spring) to a coil and plunger like Ruger uses. I think Ruger parts would work. It requires the frame be drilled from the rear, under the grip strap. It seems like a fairly simple modification.

mec · July 26, 2007, 08:08 PM

Even the Premium USFAs occasionaly break a hand spring. The above is what Uberti/cimarron is doing with the Model P. No reason it wouldn't work with a percussion revolver. The blue hand works with the coil spring/plunger while the "in the white" one is the standard set up. The alternative I use is to keep pre fitted hand /spring assemblies on hand. Once fitted, they work with both my 60 army and 61 Navy. Havn't had to change but two of them. Real early on the Navy and after a few hundred rounds with the army.

July 8, 2007, 04:46 AM	#1
Vintage Junior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Posts: 5	Uberti Colt 1851 Navy issues with handspring My father just got this gun from Taylor and Company through a local retailer. They didn't have one and stock and ordered it for him. It is a sweet gun with a square back trigger, steel frame with brass back strap. When we took it out on the range we had issues with two things, caps, which actually fell into the action due to the design of the Navy's slope that the hammer rests on. The second was the cylinder not turning after being fired a couple of times. We had to "prod" it abit to get it to turn. The first issue I think we can resolve with Thunder Ridge Nipples, which I ordered for him, the second on was caused by I believe two things: Shards of the caps falling back into the gun's action and the barrel tense that is adjusted by the wedge. I believe he had the wedge driven all the way in. Due to these issues, he was frustrated with the gun and was ready to "junk" it. But after watching a show on Wild Bill and how versatile he was with this model and how he never converted it to cartridge, I knew that allot of this was due to our "user" error. The handspring broke. Taylor and Company is actually sending us a replacement of the handspring since the gun is under a year warranty. After describing the issue, their gunsmith knew what it was. When we point the gun down at the ground the cylinder would turn, pointing it level it would not. I noticed a thread about Colt actions? Are there any modifications one could make to insure that this won't happen again and my next question is how far do most of you drive the wedge in for the barrel/cylinder tension? I am sure both the cap issue and the barrel/cylinder tension attributed to the demise of the handspring, plus it was probably on a self for some time and could have gotten brittle. It, like I said is a sweet little gun and I think it would do my dad well. He is in his late 70's and new to black powder. He likes the Navy model for its sqarre back trigger because his fingers are so thick and the Remington tends to hurt his knuckle when he fires. Any suggestions about the handspring and other modifications would be welcome. We have considered converting it to a .38 conversion cylinder but he isn't at the point he wants to spend that kind of money yet.

July 12, 2007, 05:08 PM	#4
Gunfixr Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2007 Location: East Coast, USA Posts: 360	I've done some action work on a few percussion revolvers for Cowboy Action shooters, and fitting from gun to gun can be quite different. Generally, rotating the gun to the right will fix this problem. Also, after about the second cylinder full, enough fouling has built up on the face of the hammer to make it sticky, so it will pull the fired caps back with it when cocked, whereupon half the time they then fall into the action. A pin installed into the frame that goes into the split of the hammer face ends this problem once and for all. As mentioned, the wedge should be snug, but a small amount of end play on the cylinder is helpful. Usually they are way too tight from the factory. I usually fit them to the point to where you can push them in until the spring hook just comes out the other side, and then remove it by thumb pressure as well. __________________ NRA Life, Glock Advanced Armorer Gunsmith for Unique Armament Creations, 07/SOT

July 26, 2007, 08:08 PM	#7
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	Even the Premium USFAs occasionaly break a hand spring. The above is what Uberti/cimarron is doing with the Model P. No reason it wouldn't work with a percussion revolver. The blue hand works with the coil spring/plunger while the "in the white" one is the standard set up. The alternative I use is to keep pre fitted hand /spring assemblies on hand. Once fitted, they work with both my 60 army and 61 Navy. Havn't had to change but two of them. Real early on the Navy and after a few hundred rounds with the army. Last edited by mec; August 28, 2010 at 09:21 PM.

July 8, 2007, 06:57 AM	#2
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	This is a "sticky" on thehighroad http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=137102 The hand spring seems to be the most likely to break on current revolvers. It used to be the cylinder/bolt spring but the heat treatment has gotten better now and those springs have been modified to avoid sharp corners that contribute to breakage. Often, when the hand spring breaks it happens early as with your gun. You're spare part may very well hold up for a long time. One navy sized revolvers, they generally sell the hand and spring assembly together. It is likely that that is what you will get from Taylors. The hands are usually a bit oversized and have to be fitted. (see sticky} These revolvers are often a bit tight when new but smooth out with a little shooting and handling. If the wedge is too tight it will interfer with cycling the revolver. There's no set rule about how far to shove in the wedge but It should be loose enough for the cylinder to spin freely. A little back and forth movement of the cylinder is not harmful. Holdng the gun at a barrel-down angle generally allows the caps to ride past the breach and fall out of the capping window.Twisting the gun to the right encourages the fragment to fall free. Some people raise the gun over head and give it a flip to dislodge the cap. When I do that, I get more caps bouncing down the hammer and into the action. There was a guy on "Tails of the Gun " who was adept at speed shooting. He was working two navies fast and you could see him dip the barrels when he cocked the revolvers.

July 9, 2007, 06:56 AM	#3
Vintage Junior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Posts: 5	Thanks for the info. Went over the sticky and it has much useful and needed info. My father is going to have to handle the gun more like a time piece than like the workhorse remmies we have. He was thumbing the hammer back hard and with the shards in the action and us digging them out I imagine we didn't help the situation much. I think the nipple replacements will help allot.

July 12, 2007, 09:01 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	One way to set the wedge is to insert a feeler gauge between the rear of the barrel and cylinder, then tap the wedge in until you can just get the feeler gauge out. .010 should work OK. If you don't want to use or carry a good feeler gauge, you can make one of about that thickness out of scrap steel like an old piece of strapping. I have successfully made wire hand springs for those guns, but I don't think I can easily describe how to do it. BTW, springs don't get brittle from sitting on the shelf; they are brittle because they aren't made right. Jim

July 26, 2007, 12:22 AM	#6
Malamute Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2004 Location: Rocky Mts Posts: 859	I recently saw mentioned converting the flat spring (hand spring) to a coil and plunger like Ruger uses. I think Ruger parts would work. It requires the frame be drilled from the rear, under the grip strap. It seems like a fairly simple modification.