Thompson full auto

[soryu]

I have got a chance to buy this Full auto Thompson. It charger is on the side so I assume it was built for WW2 use. I don't know what else to look for other than cosmetic acceptability and function. They want 20 K.

[T. O'Heir]

"...assume it was built for WW2 use..." Thou shalt not assume! However, that one appears to be an M1A1, standardized in October 1942. 20 grand appears to be 'cheap'. Choppers rum upwards of 25 grand on Gunbroker.
Buy the gun, not the story too. Get proof of transferability first.

[Jim Watson]

Agree, it is much the most likely to be an M1A1. It might be an M1 with hammer and firing pin but those are less common, especially since a lot of them got M1A1 fixed firing pin bolts when overhauled.
As T says, the main thing is to be sure its papers are correct.

[soryu]

Thank you all for your replies. That help in sealing my decision.

[JT-AR-MG42]

As mentioned, 20 is on the light side, so you should travel to see the gun and papers soon!
Pay attention to the paperwork as pertaining to the manufacturer.
It should be Auto-Ordnance.
If the listed maker is anything else (say, for instance ABC gunsmiths LLC), chances are the gun is a re-weld.

Take along a bronze bristle brush, rags, bore light, and either a loupe or magnifying glass on the plane with you.
I would also take along the required payment for if the gun checks out. At 20, it will move quick on the open market.
When you land, you can pick up a can of cleaner/oil for use when checking the gun out.

Field strip the gun.
Check for absolutely smooth bolt travel with the bolt laying inside the oiled, inverted receiver. Should feel like the bolt is sliding on glass.
Then use the loupe/glass to examine the cleaned and wiped dry interior of the receiver and the rails for evidence of a re-weld.
Also check around the rear of the ejection port for a weld, as some were cut there as well.

I would personally do this check even if the paperwork trail shows amnesty registration.
The upper receiver is what the money is for, so that would be the focus of my inspection.

JT

[soryu]

Originally Posted by soryu

Thank you all for your replies. That help in sealing my decision.

All of the conditions were fulfilled upon inspection. I'm enclosing some pix. Papers are all in order. So, to transfer to me let me run it by you guys the step I think
It's a local transfer between two individuals
1. File form 1(?)
I pay him and he holds the gun until stamp comes
He will draw up a contract do that guarantees my rights to the gun in case he dies
I have a trust .


Do we get a FFL involved in this transaction?

[soryu]

Originally Posted by soryu

All of the conditions were fulfilled upon inspection. I'm enclosing some pix. Papers are all in order. So, to transfer to me let me run it by you guys the step I think
It's a local transfer between two individuals
1. File form 1(?)
I pay him and he holds the gun until stamp comes
He will draw up a contract do that guarantees my rights to the gun in case he dies
I have a trust .


Do we get a FFL involved in this transaction?

[rkbanet]

A Form 1 is used for manufacturing an NFA weapon, a Form 4 is used for a taxable transfer. No SOT (Special Occupational Taxpayer ie "Class III Dealer") is needed. If you do go through an SOT you will have to pay them a fee and TWO $200 transfer fees. One to transfer the weapon to the SOT and another to transfer the weapon to you. MAKE SURE THE WEAPON IS NOT A REWELD!!! They are a lot out there. In THEORY the manufacturer of a reweld should be on the current ATF forms, and of course that would not be AO (Auto-Ordnance, Bridgeport) however many do not. Examine the inside of the receiver for signs of welding!

[DavidAGO]

completely off the track of the thread, but I got to handle a Thompson for the first time ever two weeks ago. that thing is HEAVY and that is before the magazine was inserted. I cannot imagine lugging it through Europe or in the south pacific during combat.

David

[James K]

IIRC, an M1928A1 with a loaded 50 round drum weighs 17 pounds; a lot of mass to lug around to fire a pistol cartridge!

Jim

[dogtown tom]

rkbanet A Form 1 is used for manufacturing an NFA weapon,

Form 1- taxable making, not manufacturing a Title II firearm.
Form 2- tax free notice of manufacturing of a Title II firearm by an 07FFL/SOT.
Form 3- tax free transfer of a Title II firearm between FFL/SOT's.
Form 4- taxable transfer from FFL/SOT to buyer/transferee (or to an FFL who does not pay SOT)
Form 5- tax exempt transfer to a government agency or lawful heir.

[rkbanet]

The argument of making vs manufacturing is an interesting one, but it is academic. The BATFE uses either term on various forms. In fact there is a section on BATFE form 1 that wants the "Name and Address of Original Manufacturer and/or Importer of Firearm (if any)". Which implies of course that there is another "manufacturer"... who could that be? Here is a quote from the "Definitions/Instructions" section of BATFE form 1...

Make. The term “make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall
include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such
business under the NFA), putting together, altering, any combination of
these, or otherwise producing a firearm.

[soryu]

Originally Posted by JT-AR-MG42

As mentioned, 20 is on the light side, so you should travel to see the gun and papers soon!

Pay attention to the paperwork as pertaining to the manufacturer.

It should be Auto-Ordnance.

If the listed maker is anything else (say, for instance ABC gunsmiths LLC), chances are the gun is a re-weld.



Take along a bronze bristle brush, rags, bore light, and either a loupe or magnifying glass on the plane with you.

I would also take along the required payment for if the gun checks out. At 20, it will move quick on the open market.

When you land, you can pick up a can of cleaner/oil for use when checking the gun out.



Field strip the gun.

Check for absolutely smooth bolt travel with the bolt laying inside the oiled, inverted receiver. Should feel like the bolt is sliding on glass.

Then use the loupe/glass to examine the cleaned and wiped dry interior of the receiver and the rails for evidence of a re-weld.

Also check around the rear of the ejection port for a weld, as some were cut there as well.



I would personally do this check even if the paperwork trail shows amnesty registration.

The upper receiver is what the money is for, so that would be the focus of my inspection.



JT

All above has checked out great. My question is the serial numbers on the uppers and lowers are different? Would that matter?

[dogtown tom]

rkbanet The argument of making vs manufacturing is an interesting one, but it is academic.

Being that the Form 1's actual name is "Application to Make and Register a Firearm" and the Form 2's actual name is "Notice of Firearms Manufactured or Imported"..........it's not academic, but literal.

The BATFE uses either term on various forms.

Nope. "Make" does not appear in regards to a definition of manufacturing or assembly of firearms on any other ATF Form.

In fact there is a section on BATFE form 1 that wants the "Name and Address of Original Manufacturer and/or Importer of Firearm (if any)". Which implies of course that there is another "manufacturer"... who could that be?

Really?
How about Remington? You know, like when you go to MAKE a short barreled shotgun from an existing Remington 870 shotgun.
Or you are going to SBR your Glock pistol or Colt rifle?

Here is a quote from the "Definitions/Instructions" section of BATFE form 1...

Make. The term “make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall
include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such
business under the NFA), putting together, altering, any combination of
these, or otherwise producing a firearm.

So......note that this definition specifically EXCLUDES a licensed manufacturer from the definition.

Further, read the next definition: "Maker. A person applying to make an NFA firearm."
Doesn't say "manufacture" does it?


Or question 4b. "Type of Firearm to be made" Doesn't say "manufacture" does it?


Or 4h. "Additional Description (Include all numbers and other identifying data to include maker's name, city and state which will appear on the firearm) (use additional sheet if necessary)"
Doesn't say "manufacture" does it?


Or 4 i. "State Why You Intend To Make Firearm" Doesn't say "manufacture" does it?



Wait, there's more on page 2!
"MAKER'S CERTIFICATION"
and
"Information for the Chief Law Enforcement Officer
This form provides notification of the applicant's intent to make and register a National Firearms Act (NFA) firearm. No action on your part is required. However, should you have information that may disqualify this person from making or possessing a firearm,......"
and
"Maker's Questions (complete only when the maker is an individual)"
"A maker who is an individual must complete this Section."



In fact, ATF goes out of their way to make a distinction between "making" and "manufacturing". Read the Form 2 and you'll note that nowhere does ATF mention "make" in regards to firearms.

And why is this important? First, using the correct form. Second, using the correct language. It's no different than clips vs magazine or assault weapon vs semiautomatic rifle.

[JT-AR-MG42]

soryu,

My question is the serial numbers on the uppers and lowers are different? Would that matter?

To answer your question.
No.
M1A1s have been through too many conflicts for many of them to have matching number uppers and lowers.

Some original Thompson M1 an M1A1s entered the registry in '68 thru private hands but
most have come from various police agencies over the years that were either given the guns outright or purchased them at
low cost from the Dept. of the Army (whose rebuild and refurbish programs had no parts accountability).
Most police guns were registered to them on form a 10 IIRC that allowed the Depts. to later move them to dealers for more modern designs.
So, way too many hands on them over the years for many to have stayed matched up.

And remember, at 20, you are getting an original gun
(NOT talking about re-welds, and I sure hope you are clear on just how many have been put back together!)
at a 'shooter' price anyway.

The receiver was made by Savage under contract to AO, as indicated by the 'S' on the bottom of the receiver.
Savage did not mark their name or address on Thompsons.
If the lower frame is a Savage, the 'FULL AUTO' wording by the fire control selector will be in two lines. AOC used one line.

In my opinion, at 20, if the receiver is a straight war 2 that has not been messed with, the gun would be a nice move.

But, it is not my money and I can't see the gun.

I've got a 28 that is my favorite auto. It just runs and runs.
If this one checks out and comes through, you are gonna make a lot of new friends.

Good luck with your decisions, JT

[4V50 Gary]

There's also a 100 round drum.