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Old March 30, 2015, 01:46 PM   #1
condor bravo
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Interesting Federal M-1 Garand Ammunition

Recently acquired ten 20-round boxes of Federal American Eagle '06 ammunition "FOR M1 GARAND USE", 150 gr FMJ, with headstamp FC 13 (or 18) 30 - M1, and crimped primers. There is no question about the quality or shootability of the ammunition. It's all first class. The box indicates "Made in...FEDERAL CARTRIDGE CO., ANOKA, MN...USA." Is anyone familiar with the history or background of the ammunition? For instance, left over military rounds but not delivered to the military, or left over brass more recently loaded for commercial use.
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Old March 30, 2015, 02:02 PM   #2
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FC is Federal Cartridge and 13 means made in 2013. New stuff (relatively). Federal has always made lines with cases made to military specs that have the FC headstamp on them. Their brown box 5.56 is like that. Federal's regular commercial cases are too soft for the extraction effort made by the Garand, IMHO, and would get pretty beat up by it. I suspect that's the reason they chose to do it this way for this ammo line. Whether they also made some for a military order at the same time or not, I don't know. I don't think the military uses much '06 these days. Certainly not in the Garand, specifically. So I think this was more geared toward CMP competition shooters.
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Old March 30, 2015, 02:20 PM   #3
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Right on; I should have realized the headstamp date was 13 since 18 isn't quite here yet. This is great ammunition but would have preferred that the primers had not been crimped. Do not like to swage or ream the pockets since the results are not uniform and there is still some primer shearing during seating.
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Old March 30, 2015, 02:46 PM   #4
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The criterion that makes these rounds suitable for the M1 had to do with propellant burn rate (and, hence, keeping port pressure below the 7,000 psig recommended max). I doubt that brass hardness has anything to do with it.

A lot of modern factory '06 rounds intended for hunting are loaded with slow burning propellants, for real or perceived enhancement of ballistic properties. As a result, M1 owners are routinely cautioned to to fire commercial ammo unless it is marked suitable for the M1.
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Old March 30, 2015, 03:26 PM   #5
condor bravo
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Yes the proper port pressure for the Garand must be maintained with medium burning powders like 4895 and 4064, so it must seem odd to those not familiar with the functioning of the Garand that the slow burners result in excessive pressure, a situation not well tolerated sometimes by the operating rod.
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Old March 30, 2015, 05:17 PM   #6
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Its nice stuff but I prefer PPU garand ammo more.
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Old March 31, 2015, 09:46 AM   #7
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I stumbled into this with a Garand I got in the early 90's. I had been shooting my bolt gun reloads with IMR4350 since I got it. I never saw any warnings in reloading manuals or on commecial 30-06 ammo. I just assumed that it shot 30-06 because it said so on it. When I ran out of 4350 last year, and I couldn't find more, I bought some RE17, the Alliant near equivilant.

When I was lopking for load data, I ran across all the warnings on the internet, and simlar ones for my M14 in .308 as well. It was enough to greatly concern me, even though I am skeptical and believe it may be exaggerated.

I did buy one of the aftermarket plugs for the Garand to allow you to shoot "commercial" ammo, but haven't loaded more ammo for it. I'ms till struggling with the "Never use anythng slower than 4064" even with the plug. Similar for the M14. All I find is that "RE17 is too slow" but can't find why too slow is problem with the new gas plug. I'm not sure how many .308s I've shot through my M14, or why this would damage it.

I was going to invest in some more powder (to mix up on my bench), but I'm inclined to continue with RE17 and just back off to the minimum where the action functions.
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Old March 31, 2015, 03:50 PM   #8
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1) Win748 works fine in M1s and M14s. It meters like water and is quite accurate.

2) You might want to take a look at http://www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html
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Old March 31, 2015, 09:29 PM   #9
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RKG,

The reason the hard brass is preferable in this instance has nothing to do with pressure, just durability. Federal's commercial brass is exceptionally soft, as commercial brass goes. Look around and you'll find complaints about their higher pressure factory magnum loads having primers fall out on extraction because the head has expanded in just that one firing. Other problems, like sticky bolt lift with loads that work fine in other, similar capacity brass, or excessive pressure ring expansion also are periodically mentioned. Board member Bart B. has suggested this is because they get better accuracy results with less springy brass. Whatever the rationale, some consider Federal commercial brass unsuitable for reloading (Dan Newberry of OCW fame, for one), while others are perfectly happy with it, but at moderate pressures.

I expect part of Federal's thinking behind using mil-spec brass for the Garand loads was simple authenticity, as that mimics M2 Ball, and a lot of Garand shooters are CMP as-issued match shooters, and they make other mil spec brass anyway, so this wasn’t really a special challenge for them. But I also suspect they wanted to avoid concerns and complaints from users finding the Garand had bent the rims or who reloaded and couldn’t get good case life who didn’t have that happen with other makes of brass. Hornady's Garand ammo, for example, doesn’t need different brass, but their regular brass is harder than Federal’s.


TimSr,

If you look up John Clarke's Garand load data from the 80's, you'll find 4350 used with very heavy bullets. That's because, in order not to produce excessive pressure, heavy bullets require charges small enough that the total gas made is not great and doesn’t produce excessive near-muzzle pressure. But with charges large enough to get normal Garand velocities from lighter bullets, it just shoves the op-rod too hard.

BTW, Reloader 17 is not really a 4350 equivalent. It's a slower burning, higher energy double-base powder with higher bulk density. In QuickLOAD, if I load both powders into .30-06 behind the 175 grain MatchKing to the same peak pressure, I get:

55,000 psi peak
4350: 9102 psi muzzle, 2740 fps muzzle, 100.3% case fill (slightly compressed)
RE17: 9683 psi muzzle, 2858 fps muzzle, 96.4% case fill (QuickLOAD default RL17 file)
RE17: 9175 psi muzzle, 2832 fps muzzle, 92.1% case fill (QuickLOAD adjusted RL17 file)

The QuickLOAD model and reality don't always track exactly, but it usually gives you a good general idea of relative performance. The match to Hodgdon's data with the default IMR 4350 is good enough for the error to be in the normal noise (within. For Reloader 17 I put up two sets of numbers, the first being QL defaults and the second with the burn rate adjusted to produce Alliant's published load results. Chances are the difference is due to lot changes or supplier changes over the time between when a sample was tested for QL's database and the last time Alliant did measurements.

What actually affects the op-rod is the size of the gas impulse. It is pressure on the barrel side of the gas port multiplied by how long that pressure is present. That's what determines how much gas is driven into the cylinder. There isn't actually a fixed pressure number because if the bullet moves fast enough, the pressure can be higher and the impulse still comes out about right because the faster bullet's base moves from the gas port to the muzzle in a shorter time, allowing the impulse to end sooner and thereby limiting how much gas the higher pressure moves into the cylinder.

If you bought the Garand Gear cylinder plug, rather than venting gas to limit the impulse, as the others do, it is hollowed out. That extra volume drops the entering gas pressure and requires a larger amount of gas to reach a given piston pressure. That's why it lets you use commercial loads. Gas impulse measurements are posted at that link for commercial loads, which I know do include 4350-like powders. Write Eric and ask, and he probably has some 4350 test results. See what he says.
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Old April 1, 2015, 05:25 AM   #10
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Only place I've ever seen this for sale was through the CMP, I'm sure others have it too just never noticed it.

Federal and Hornady both have commercial ammo loaded up for the Garand. My understanding is they are current production components loaded to specs of the ammo from when the gun was designed, and to not beat the hell out of op rod/gas system and potentially damage it.

I know you used to be able to snag surplus M2 ammo that worked well in those guns, but I'm sure those supplies have almost dried up by now, hence the new manufacture ammo.
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Old April 1, 2015, 07:00 AM   #11
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Question out of curiosity [for those who might know], does this Federal Garand ammunition use Federal primers ?
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Old April 1, 2015, 07:04 AM   #12
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Good info Unclenick.

I was reading Alliant's description of RE17
Quote:
•Similar burn speed to IMR 4350
, and their recommendation to use reloading data from IMR4350 with a 10% reduction as a reference. You are right though in that it works in a very different way.

I have the Shuster plug from Midway. I haven't even installed it yet, but warm weather is coming!
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Old April 1, 2015, 08:32 AM   #13
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Federal Cartridge plant in Anoka, MN. (North West of the twin cities, Minneapolis/St. Paul) is a fairly large facility, and it's been there for a LONG time.

They used to have top notch PEOPLE and very good equipment, but since being bought out by the
'The Blount Sporting Equipment Group'
CCI, Speer, Weaver, Simmons, Redfield, Outers, Ramline, ect.
Blount got into ENORMOUS debt while corporate raiding and did some really silly/extensive cutbacks at the Anoka plant...

Then it got sold again to Alliant Techsystems (ATK), maker of Alliant Reloading powders, and is basically a rocket engine maker with a side line of ammunition.

Some of the best people have moved, and the place is not what it used to be.
Conglomerate profit rules where top quality products used to be the priority in my opinion.

I used to go there regularly since Federal was one of my sponsors, and the people/place wasn't as new as Remington out side of Little Rock, but it was so friendly, and the people so bright and energetic about input and new ideas it wasn't funny!

Between two wars, the DHS buying up 3 billion rounds the place has been cranking out government/military contracts like crazy, and civilian ammunition is a back burner operation.

Personally, I liked and used Federal ammunition in general before the corporate takeovers,

But the 'Premium' ammo is really the only thing I'll shoot from Federal now, and they aren't keeping up with other ammo manufacturers, just cranking out what they had perfected in the late 90s/early 2000s before all this corporate greed got in the way of a clearly superior product production.

All the 'Strange' guys in the research and development department are gone,
The guys that would try ANYTHING, any idea that might even remotely make a better product...

I've fired the M1A version of that round, and it works just fine. It's not hyper accurate, but it's reliable and safe as far as I know.
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Old April 1, 2015, 09:35 AM   #14
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^^^^
You've just described a huge chunk of what's happened to American industry/businesses.
Short-term quarterly earning Über Alles/and when the goose dies -- move on....

Sad.

But again, are they using the classic/softer Federal primers in this Garand-rated ammunition... or something else?
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Old April 1, 2015, 12:30 PM   #15
Bart B.
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The USN Rifle Teams shot thousands of rounds of .308 Win commercial match ammo in their 7.62 NATO converted Garands; Hornady, Remington, Western Ctg Co. and Federal. Federal would shoot most accurate; about 4 inches at 600 yards.
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Old April 1, 2015, 01:00 PM   #16
JeepHammer
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Federal made a GREAT round, it was the people not accepting anything less than a great round,
And an AMMO company that would allow the employees to produce that great round.

Now it seems like Federal is an 'Also Ran' round,
I can't see any real changes since the buy out in the early '00.

The premium 'Match' rounds are still pretty good,
But the general ammo seems to be more like government production over run than sporting ammo,
And that is a crying shame...
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Old April 1, 2015, 04:09 PM   #17
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This is the first time I've seen anything mentioned about commercial .30-06 ammo, M1 Garand and soft brass being an issue.

Everything I've ever read concerning the use of commercial ammo with a Garand revolves around pressure and bent op rods as a result - especially when you start pushing heaver than 150 grain pills. But it has always been about the higher pressure developed in commercial hunting rounds over the M2 ball ammo and the subsequent damage to op rods.
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Old April 2, 2015, 07:43 AM   #18
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I was going through some mixed 30-06 cases, & as the OP, ran across some... FC ( sorry, don't remember the year ) 30 - M1 head stamp cases...

I separated them out... after they came out of the wet tumbler... I only have 10 or so... that are going into the sell box for the next gun show... would these be something that someone would purchase before they'd buy a box of mixed 30-06 brass, or is the quantity too low???

anyway... I guess I bought PPU M-1 ammo & plan on reloading those cases... if the cases are too soft, I guess that will limit how many reloads...

BTW... RKG... thanks for posting that link... I found it interesting
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Old April 2, 2015, 08:23 AM   #19
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I don't know about the Fed. '06 stuff, haven't tried them. I have shot a lot of CMP Hornady '06 match ammo and it worked quite well. I will admit load a more moderate load (slower) in the Hornady cases w/168 A-max was a bit more accurate in my M1904a4 used in vintage sniper match.

Fed. Match 308 brass left a bad taste. The last few years in the NG, we bought quite a bit of the federal match. It shot quite well. When I retired I ended up with several hundred rounds of once fired brass. It was too soft and my M1A would pull the necks off on a lot of first re-loadings.

Havent used Fed Brass since.

The Hornady brass works good for reloading but I shoot a lot of HXP Greek surplus in my Garand, M1903A3, and M1917. I load that brass with 168 A-max and found it to be just as accurate as the Hornady Match ammo.

I have a goodly supply of A-Max and SMKs. I just sort the HXP and use it for my match '06 ammo.

Just can't see buying the Fed Match. I don't trust the brass for reloading. I also have a supply of Fed 223 brass that I'm leery of reloading, maybe for my bolt guns but not for my ARs
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