legal question

pirogoeth · July 21, 2007, 05:42 AM

is its legal to own the auto sear, rate reducer, and full auto disconnecter for an AK47 as well as own a complete rifle?

Hkmp5sd · July 21, 2007, 05:45 AM

If you own a registered, fully automatic AK-47, then those are merely spare parts and perfectly legal to own. If you only own a semi-auto AK-47, possession of those parts constitutes "constructive possession" of an illegal (unregistered) machinegun. Mere possession is illegal and will get you 10 years in club Fed. They do not have to be installed.

pirogoeth · July 21, 2007, 05:56 AM

and if i cut the tail off that FA disconnecter and render it semi only?

Hkmp5sd · July 21, 2007, 06:04 AM

Semantics. You are still in possession of full auto parts with a semi-auto firearm. There is no legal reason to have them.

pirogoeth · July 21, 2007, 06:06 AM

is the part legal to own with the tail cut off?

and if they are not legal to own why was i sold the kit with all the FA parts?

Hkmp5sd · July 21, 2007, 06:29 AM

Because it is not illegal to "sell" full auto parts. You may be able to get away with keeping the full auto parts and never get in trouble because it still requires machining and drilling the receiver in order to use them. However, you also may not get away. It is recommended to those purchasing a parts kit to displose of the full auto parts to avoid any trouble. It simply isn't worth the hassle if some ATF/LEO decides they want to go after you.

pirogoeth · July 21, 2007, 06:31 AM

just throw them out or should i break out the torch and destroy them first?

Hkmp5sd · July 21, 2007, 06:37 AM

You can just throw them away.

MisterPX · July 21, 2007, 09:48 PM

"Readily convertable". I can have FA trigger packs as cufflinks, as long as I don't have any AK's. You could have M16 DIAS's as earrings, as long as you don't have a rec.

shaggy · July 21, 2007, 10:29 PM

Quote:

You could have M16 DIAS's as earrings, as long as you don't have a rec.

...and you can prove by clear and convincing evidence that they were made prior to 1981.

James K · July 22, 2007, 03:13 PM

Interesting about spare parts. I had a registered selective fire carbine (M1 with a GI kit). I was told by what was then ATTD that I could have any spare parts as long as I did not have the full set of six parts that make up the "kit" (hammer, sear, disconnector, disconnector lever, selector, slide). If I had a spare for everything, I was in possession of another machinegun and it had to be registered as such.

Jim

pirogoeth · July 24, 2007, 01:14 AM

called and spoke to an agent at the ATF, as long as that receiver wasn't drilled for the 3rd hole it was legal.

bit late now.

Hkmp5sd · July 24, 2007, 02:59 AM

Word of warning about speaking to ATF agents. If you are seeking an interpretation, write to ATF and get a written response. Their rulings change faster than the weather, and individual agents aren't always aware of the latest and greatest. For example, they recently ruled a 10/22 rifle stock to be a machinegun.

pirogoeth · July 24, 2007, 05:27 PM

yea, the Atkins accelerator, wish i had gotten one of those.

shame they changed their minds on it

dmxx99 · July 24, 2007, 06:47 PM

the gray bar hotel is better than it once was 10 years will go by fast and besides you will make friends there and you will have a new experiance in being a man and you will be a hero with all your friends and family even some people here.I mean seriously in my opinion its a joke to go 10 years in a prison for owning a auto sear or some full auto gun even though you have a clean record a Rapist gets less time in prison than that.
All I have to say is that our justice system is severely flawed and corrupt.

James K · July 24, 2007, 09:52 PM

Well, you can cry and moan about the nasty old law, and rant to your lawyer, and to the judge if you get a chance, but that's the way it is. I have little sympathy for people who know what they are doing is against the law and do it anyway just because it is "cool" or they want to tweak the cops. That is pretty juvenile behavior, but the consequences can be rough, especially when a conviction means not only a fine and possible jail time, but also means no more guns, ever. Want to give up guns for the rest of your life just to have the "thrill" of owning a couple of pieces of steel you won't and can't use anyway?

Jim

dmxx99 · July 25, 2007, 08:31 AM

I still think its one of the most worthless and stupidest gun law in our entire country going to prison for owning a peice of steel that can make the gun shoot faster.I personally wont take that risk because I am not about to be Bubbas Girl friend because of it.But some people have balls and do it anyway and I give them a toast otherwise I am not taking such a big unneccesary risk.I dont know why the Government does not focus on the violent criminals instead of bothering normal people and trying to intimidate them the whole time.Anyways full auto is overrated though it costs alot of money for the ammo you shoot and its less accurate because of the spray and pray tactic alot of people use and its expensive as hell to own a full auto gun the politically correct way.I think there should not be any gun laws everyone good should own any gun they want and they should have no problems with self defense either.

A guy using a semi-auto rifle is more effective because he actually aims at the target and does not waste as much ammo as someone with full auto rifle.
But semi-auto will be banned if a socialist president is in power then all thats left is Elmer fuddite guns and registration.I will keep my semi-auto rifle no matter what and you should too for real.

9mmHP · July 25, 2007, 11:57 AM

Wait, if you have all the parts to convert an AK, you have a MG even without an AK. If you have any FA parts installed that cause your AK to fire FA then you have a MG, or if your AK fires FA even w/o the parts. If you have some parts, but not all, and they're not installed and your AK doesn't fire FA then it's not a MG. It is illegal to sell a "collection of parts" to convert to a MG unless sold as spares to someone who has a registered FA firearm.

James K · July 25, 2007, 03:06 PM

"I think there should not be any gun laws"

Don't hold your breath waiting for that day.

Jim

aardq · July 26, 2007, 12:13 AM

Are you a gambler? You're betting your future on whether or not you get caught with a few parts. Ever piss anyone off that might know about the parts? Ever talk to anyone about the parts? How many people out there could drop a dime on you?

Even if there's no prison time, it will still be a conviction of some sort, probably felony, and many thousands of dollars for your defense. If it is a felony conviction you loose all your guns, and will you still have a job? In some states you loose voting rights, and you'd be barred from most government jobs at any level, and you'd loose the ability to be bonded. All that over a few parts!?

Your decision to make.

Wish you well.

9mmHP · July 26, 2007, 09:06 AM

It is not illegal to have FA parts unless it is a "collection of parts" designed solely to convert a firearm into a machinegun. A kit containing ALLthe FA parts would be a "collection of parts" designed solely to convert a firearm into a MG and would be illegal in itself, so I don't think he has all the FA parts.

Hkmp5sd · July 27, 2007, 01:49 AM

Possessing the FA parts for a firearm without possessing a semi-auto firearm in which they can be installed is legal. It is the same as having a 10" barrel for a Remington 870. As long as you do not possess a Remington 870, it is legal to possess the short barrel without any registration. By possessing both the short barrel and the shotgun, you have constructive possession of a SBS and it is illegal if not registered. You have to have the parts to assemble an illegal weapon to be illegal. Without the host weapon, the other stuff is just pieces of metal (excluding suppressors, of course).

The exception to the rule is the post 1981 DIAS. ATF has ruled that these are machineguns by themselves, whether or not you actually have a host gun to put it in. That is what Shaggy was referring to.

9mmHP · July 27, 2007, 10:21 AM

Wrong. If you have the complete "combination of parts" to convert then you have a machinegun, even with nothing else.

27 C.F.R § 479.11

Machine gun. Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

---
For example, all the parts to convert an AR-15 to an M-16 configuration, or all the parts to convert an M-1 carbine to M-2 configuration.

uzimon · July 27, 2007, 02:18 PM

stash it at moms

raymond- · July 27, 2007, 06:52 PM

- some states make it illegal merely to FA parts which can only fit a FA firearm,
so in the above scenarios, it may be illegal just possessing a FA (only) bolt
carrier, etc

- "stash it at mom's"....does not withstand legal test of possession. why?
because it has been determined that you still have dominion over her place
of residence, exceptions notwithstanding. most people can come and go
over at mom's just as easily as your own. check it out. specific cases cited
over on Bardwell's site.

July 21, 2007, 05:42 AM	#1
pirogoeth Junior Member Join Date: July 21, 2007 Posts: 6	legal question is its legal to own the auto sear, rate reducer, and full auto disconnecter for an AK47 as well as own a complete rifle?

July 21, 2007, 05:45 AM	#2
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	If you own a registered, fully automatic AK-47, then those are merely spare parts and perfectly legal to own. If you only own a semi-auto AK-47, possession of those parts constitutes "constructive possession" of an illegal (unregistered) machinegun. Mere possession is illegal and will get you 10 years in club Fed. They do not have to be installed. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

July 21, 2007, 06:04 AM	#4
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	Semantics. You are still in possession of full auto parts with a semi-auto firearm. There is no legal reason to have them. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

July 21, 2007, 06:29 AM	#6
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	Because it is not illegal to "sell" full auto parts. You may be able to get away with keeping the full auto parts and never get in trouble because it still requires machining and drilling the receiver in order to use them. However, you also may not get away. It is recommended to those purchasing a parts kit to displose of the full auto parts to avoid any trouble. It simply isn't worth the hassle if some ATF/LEO decides they want to go after you. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

July 21, 2007, 06:37 AM	#8
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	You can just throw them away. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

July 21, 2007, 05:56 AM	#3
pirogoeth Junior Member Join Date: July 21, 2007 Posts: 6	and if i cut the tail off that FA disconnecter and render it semi only?

July 21, 2007, 06:06 AM	#5
pirogoeth Junior Member Join Date: July 21, 2007 Posts: 6	is the part legal to own with the tail cut off? and if they are not legal to own why was i sold the kit with all the FA parts?

July 21, 2007, 06:31 AM	#7
pirogoeth Junior Member Join Date: July 21, 2007 Posts: 6	just throw them out or should i break out the torch and destroy them first?

July 21, 2007, 09:48 PM	#9
MisterPX Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2006 Location: Amerika's Doyleland Posts: 809	"Readily convertable". I can have FA trigger packs as cufflinks, as long as I don't have any AK's. You could have M16 DIAS's as earrings, as long as you don't have a rec.

July 22, 2007, 03:13 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Interesting about spare parts. I had a registered selective fire carbine (M1 with a GI kit). I was told by what was then ATTD that I could have any spare parts as long as I did not have the full set of six parts that make up the "kit" (hammer, sear, disconnector, disconnector lever, selector, slide). If I had a spare for everything, I was in possession of another machinegun and it had to be registered as such. Jim

July 24, 2007, 01:14 AM	#12
pirogoeth Junior Member Join Date: July 21, 2007 Posts: 6	called and spoke to an agent at the ATF, as long as that receiver wasn't drilled for the 3rd hole it was legal. bit late now.

July 24, 2007, 02:59 AM	#13
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	Word of warning about speaking to ATF agents. If you are seeking an interpretation, write to ATF and get a written response. Their rulings change faster than the weather, and individual agents aren't always aware of the latest and greatest. For example, they recently ruled a 10/22 rifle stock to be a machinegun. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

July 24, 2007, 05:27 PM	#14
pirogoeth Junior Member Join Date: July 21, 2007 Posts: 6	yea, the Atkins accelerator, wish i had gotten one of those. shame they changed their minds on it

July 24, 2007, 06:47 PM	#15
dmxx99 Junior member Join Date: July 22, 2007 Location: Somewhere in FL Posts: 169	the gray bar hotel is better than it once was 10 years will go by fast and besides you will make friends there and you will have a new experiance in being a man and you will be a hero with all your friends and family even some people here.I mean seriously in my opinion its a joke to go 10 years in a prison for owning a auto sear or some full auto gun even though you have a clean record a Rapist gets less time in prison than that. All I have to say is that our justice system is severely flawed and corrupt.

July 24, 2007, 09:52 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Well, you can cry and moan about the nasty old law, and rant to your lawyer, and to the judge if you get a chance, but that's the way it is. I have little sympathy for people who know what they are doing is against the law and do it anyway just because it is "cool" or they want to tweak the cops. That is pretty juvenile behavior, but the consequences can be rough, especially when a conviction means not only a fine and possible jail time, but also means no more guns, ever. Want to give up guns for the rest of your life just to have the "thrill" of owning a couple of pieces of steel you won't and can't use anyway? Jim

July 25, 2007, 08:31 AM	#17
dmxx99 Junior member Join Date: July 22, 2007 Location: Somewhere in FL Posts: 169	I still think its one of the most worthless and stupidest gun law in our entire country going to prison for owning a peice of steel that can make the gun shoot faster.I personally wont take that risk because I am not about to be Bubbas Girl friend because of it.But some people have balls and do it anyway and I give them a toast otherwise I am not taking such a big unneccesary risk.I dont know why the Government does not focus on the violent criminals instead of bothering normal people and trying to intimidate them the whole time.Anyways full auto is overrated though it costs alot of money for the ammo you shoot and its less accurate because of the spray and pray tactic alot of people use and its expensive as hell to own a full auto gun the politically correct way.I think there should not be any gun laws everyone good should own any gun they want and they should have no problems with self defense either. A guy using a semi-auto rifle is more effective because he actually aims at the target and does not waste as much ammo as someone with full auto rifle. But semi-auto will be banned if a socialist president is in power then all thats left is Elmer fuddite guns and registration.I will keep my semi-auto rifle no matter what and you should too for real.

July 25, 2007, 11:57 AM	#18
9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Indiana/Indpls Metro Area Posts: 318	Wait, if you have all the parts to convert an AK, you have a MG even without an AK. If you have any FA parts installed that cause your AK to fire FA then you have a MG, or if your AK fires FA even w/o the parts. If you have some parts, but not all, and they're not installed and your AK doesn't fire FA then it's not a MG. It is illegal to sell a "collection of parts" to convert to a MG unless sold as spares to someone who has a registered FA firearm.

July 25, 2007, 03:06 PM	#19
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	"I think there should not be any gun laws" Don't hold your breath waiting for that day. Jim

July 26, 2007, 12:13 AM	#20
aardq Junior Member Join Date: September 26, 2004 Posts: 1	Are you a gambler? You're betting your future on whether or not you get caught with a few parts. Ever piss anyone off that might know about the parts? Ever talk to anyone about the parts? How many people out there could drop a dime on you? Even if there's no prison time, it will still be a conviction of some sort, probably felony, and many thousands of dollars for your defense. If it is a felony conviction you loose all your guns, and will you still have a job? In some states you loose voting rights, and you'd be barred from most government jobs at any level, and you'd loose the ability to be bonded. All that over a few parts!? Your decision to make. Wish you well.

July 26, 2007, 09:06 AM	#21
9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Indiana/Indpls Metro Area Posts: 318	It is not illegal to have FA parts unless it is a "collection of parts" designed solely to convert a firearm into a machinegun. A kit containing ALLthe FA parts would be a "collection of parts" designed solely to convert a firearm into a MG and would be illegal in itself, so I don't think he has all the FA parts.

July 27, 2007, 01:49 AM	#22
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	Possessing the FA parts for a firearm without possessing a semi-auto firearm in which they can be installed is legal. It is the same as having a 10" barrel for a Remington 870. As long as you do not possess a Remington 870, it is legal to possess the short barrel without any registration. By possessing both the short barrel and the shotgun, you have constructive possession of a SBS and it is illegal if not registered. You have to have the parts to assemble an illegal weapon to be illegal. Without the host weapon, the other stuff is just pieces of metal (excluding suppressors, of course). The exception to the rule is the post 1981 DIAS. ATF has ruled that these are machineguns by themselves, whether or not you actually have a host gun to put it in. That is what Shaggy was referring to. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

July 27, 2007, 10:21 AM	#23
9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Indiana/Indpls Metro Area Posts: 318	Wrong. If you have the complete "combination of parts" to convert then you have a machinegun, even with nothing else. 27 C.F.R § 479.11 Machine gun. Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. --- For example, all the parts to convert an AR-15 to an M-16 configuration, or all the parts to convert an M-1 carbine to M-2 configuration.

July 27, 2007, 02:18 PM	#24
uzimon Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2007 Location: houston texas Posts: 115	stash it at moms __________________ "the dogs wouldn't be playing with the guns that didnt have the rope on them" FRED MAXWELL from www.gunsnet.net

July 27, 2007, 06:52 PM	#25
raymond- Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 179	- some states make it illegal merely to FA parts which can only fit a FA firearm, so in the above scenarios, it may be illegal just possessing a FA (only) bolt carrier, etc - "stash it at mom's"....does not withstand legal test of possession. why? because it has been determined that you still have dominion over her place of residence, exceptions notwithstanding. most people can come and go over at mom's just as easily as your own. check it out. specific cases cited over on Bardwell's site. __________________ raymond- 47.5N 122.2W

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