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Old July 8, 2020, 02:17 AM   #51
jmstr
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I have taught a few people and have a routine.

I spend day 1 in garage with them and firearms, with snap caps and no live ammo.

I actually introduce them to EVERY type of semi-auto and EVERY type of revolver that I own, so that they know how to load/unload and handle anything they might pick up.

I work with them on loading/unloading, grip, sight alignment, trigger squeeze and avoiding flinching.

It is about getting them comfortable with all of them, so there is no stress. And, all of this is without live ammo- and without the ability to 'rush' things to go shoot them.

I start them with .22lr and move up through different calibers to the largest they can hold on target with the sights aligned.


Day two we go to the range and repeat, with live ammo, in each caliber and type.


I have moved everyone through: 22lr, .380acp, .38sp, 9mm, .45acp, .40S&W, .45LC, .357mag, .44mag.

Heck, the 11 year old girl went all the way up to .44 mag and fired that twice, hitting the target both times. Then she decided it was more than she wanted to do. She wanted to keep shooting, so picked my 5" 1911 in .45acp to keep having fun, as it felt 'best' in her hand.

This is all about familiarity and confidence.

Second range trip we focus on one or two firearms and spend time becoming proficient with them. First time is just safe use, familiarity and confidence.

That is how I do it, but I am lucky in that I've inherited a lot of options, and bought some of my own.

Yet, everyone starts with my .22lr revolvers, then go to semi-autos.
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Old July 8, 2020, 11:09 AM   #52
Pahoo
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Quote:
Yet, everyone starts with my .22lr revolvers, then go to semi-autos.
I agree and there is a benefit for starting out with SA/DA revolvers that I forgot till I spoke with a fellow instructor. He asked the question;

"Have you ever asked a female students to load her own magazines?"

Be Safe !!!
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Last edited by Pahoo; July 9, 2020 at 10:32 AM.
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Old July 9, 2020, 12:35 AM   #53
peacefulgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pahoo View Post
I agree and there is a benefit for starting out with SA/DA revolvers that I forgot till I spoke with a fellow instructor. He asked the question;

"Have you ever asked a female students to load her own magazines?"

Be Safe !!!
I've never seen any adult female that could not load a magazine with just their hands.
Heck, I've seen 13 year old girls load magazines with just their hands.
They might not load it to full capacity (maybe 1 or 2 shy), but they definitely can load it.
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Old July 9, 2020, 12:43 AM   #54
peacefulgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmstr View Post
I have taught a few people and have a routine.

I spend day 1 in garage with them and firearms, with snap caps and no live ammo.

I actually introduce them to EVERY type of semi-auto and EVERY type of revolver that I own, so that they know how to load/unload and handle anything they might pick up.
I don't know that this is the best method.

I am a radiologic technologist (aka X-Ray Tech) and I work with students every week.
I would never start them off by instructing them on every X-ray machine we have in the entire hospital (from portables, to trauma ER rooms, to C-Arms in surgery, to 3D spin C-arms, to mini C-arms, to fluoro tables, to pantomograms, to head units).

It would be sensory overload.
the typical person is just not going to retain enough knowledge to competently use all of those machines.

Better to start them off on say 1 portable X-ray machine and 1 diagnostic routine X-ray room.
Once they have shown competence with those, then you can teach them the other different machines.

Last edited by peacefulgary; July 9, 2020 at 12:52 AM.
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Old July 9, 2020, 08:19 AM   #55
HiBC
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Quote:
I've never seen any adult female that could not load a magazine with just their hands.
One way to jump to inaccurate conclusions is to paste on a monolithic label and then put all individual samples in the same box.

We have "Magazines" and we have "Adult women"

"Adult Women" is a pretty broad brush. Many are not nearly as weak and frail as they are alleged to be.
I've known 3 women who are tire busters. Some are machinists. I know of one welder. One woman chef I know has man-like strong hands.Farming,gardening,and horse women tend to have strong hands. A baker who kneads dough all day might be pretty strong.
My 40 year old daughter trains crossfit. I've seen her do pullups where she then brings her feet up to touch the bar.
And there are men who get their hand strength in a chair at a keyboard.

Arthritis,carpal tunnel,etc can hit anyone.

Magazines? A 1911 and most other single stacks are pretty easy.
But my S+W M+P 9C magazines are difficult to load without a Magula for myself. I have not tried a Shield,but I would not assume they are easy.
I'm not a Ninja Gladiator, but I'm not lacking in hand strength.

I'll agree with
" Many Women and teens have adequate hand strength to load some magazines.Other magazines are just difficult to load,even with good hand strength.A tool like the Magula helps Some folks,such as the elderly,might have better luck with a revolver"

We have to start with whatever is true for the shooter.

[QUOTEIt would be sensory overload.
the typical person is just not going to retain enough knowledge to competently use all of those machines.

Better to start them off on say 1 portable X-ray machine and 1 diagnostic routine X-ray room.
Once they have shown competence with those, then you can teach them the other different machin][/QUOTE]

This,I agree with. Overwhelming someone with new information is not an effective way to teach. Maybe in any one lesson you will be successful teaching three new things. Up that to nine new things,a lot will get lost.

However,I've had a few great range sessions where I brought a large variety of firearms and ammo.

Mostly kids.,young folks ,or new shooters.

My rule was one student would be paired with one responsible,experienced adult who would supervise and coach that individual at all times on the firing line.

Any student could point to any gun and say : "May I try that one?"

There were no imbecile moves...if a kid pointed at the 44 Magnum Super Black hawk,they would be steered toward a Single Six in 22 or 32 H+R.
But it would be no problem if they tried an M-1 carbine,an SKS,an AR,and an FN-FAL on the bipod that day.
The thing is,its just an experience. It IS immersion,but there is no expectation that anything is retained.

The lessons in marksmanship would return to the one familiar firearm,probably a bolt 22. IMO,its not wrong to follow the old NRA Junior 50 foot progression....shooting bullseye for a while.

If you want to become a musician,you might start with piano lessons and reading music.
A basketball player might start with dribbling ,then dribbling and moving.And shooting baskets.

There is a certain amount of drill on the basic fundamentals to establish a foundation. Jumping ahead of that plan establishes bad habits that have to be unlearned to progress.

Last edited by HiBC; July 9, 2020 at 11:24 AM.
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Old July 9, 2020, 09:25 AM   #56
seanc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmstr View Post
I have taught a few people and have a routine.

I spend day 1 in garage with them and firearms, with snap caps and no live ammo.

I actually introduce them to EVERY type of semi-auto and EVERY type of revolver that I own, so that they know how to load/unload and handle anything they might pick up.
I'm not a certified NRA trainer, but I agree with peacefulgary: 1 gun at a time.

Guns, by design, are dangerous. A new shooter needs to digest the 4 rules 1st, THEN be introduced to the gun and what those rules mean for THAT gun, going over the 4 rules again. Then sight alignment, grip, body position, trigger pull. Lots of trigger pull. Each gun has it's own trigger pull to learn. That's a fine motor skill I want them to master and appreciate. I can't imagine breezing through those steps just to show off my vast collection.
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Old July 9, 2020, 10:19 AM   #57
Pahoo
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I don't teach to promote either; Just present options !!

Quote:
I've never seen any adult female that could not load a magazine with just their hands.
And I know a "few" women that defer that task to someone else. You won't have a big problem with younger females and that's fine but on the older ones, it "can" be a minor problem that is not present with revolver. When I teach, I bring both but start out with a revolver. ......

Be Safe
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Old July 9, 2020, 10:49 AM   #58
aarondhgraham
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"I've never seen any adult female that could not load a magazine with just their hands"

I have however seen many who say they "can't",,,
Because that final 2-3 rounds hurts their fingers.

Heck, even I don't like stuffing those last few into my CZ-75B magazines,,,
But that's why Uplula loaders were invented.

I am a "trainer" by profession,,,
Trained by the USAF and 7 years of university.

Personally I take short shrift with anyone who says,,,
"That's too hard."

I usually stop right there and say,,,
"If you say so, who am I to argue with you."

Shame rarely works with children,,,
But is often very effective with adults.

Bottom line is if they can't/won't load their own mags,,,
They are forced to stay with revolvers.

Most of the time they buck up and learn to load their own mags.

Aarond

.
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Old July 9, 2020, 02:21 PM   #59
stinkeypete
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“Necessity is the mother of invention” is true in many ways.

Research shows clearly that it’s very hard (some say impossible) to learn things with the need or motivation to. After all, why learn to load magazines when someone else will do it for you?

It’s hard to stand back and let people struggle but the goal of teaching is learning, not teaching. Many people fall in to the number one teacher’s trap of having so much fun demonstrating their expertise they forget that people watching them don’t learn much more than “the teacher is really good at it.”

Many years ago I was riding my bicycle out in the country. A woman was on the side of the road with a flat bike tire. “Hi! Do you have everything you need?” I asked.
“Yes!” She replied cheerfully, making no moves to change her tire.
“Uh, if you need help I’d be happy to teach you how to change out your tube..”
“Oh no! Whenever I get a flat some attractive man stops and does it for me!”
“... well, good luck” and off I went, continuing my ride.

I would teach any cyclist on the side of the road or stop and see if anyone needed an extra tire lever or third hand for some of the really tight tires... but my wife can change her own tires like a pro because that’s what I feel keeps her safe and she got tired of guys stopping and doing it wrong and blowing her spare tube.

Point is, everyone loads their own magazines and “you shoot it, you clean it.”

It’s how people learn and knowledge is power.
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Old July 9, 2020, 03:52 PM   #60
stuckinthe60s
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I teach. I train. Im certified. I write my own curriculum too.

this is my way....

person walks in.
say they want to learn to shoot.
ok.
1. what do you want to shoot?(paper,animal.human)
2. what do you want to hit it with?(size bullet)
3. how far away will you be?
4. do you own a gun?
6. how simple do you want one to be?(revolver,semi,single shot)
7. how good are your eyes?
8. lets try some grip sizes(balance, pointability)
9. bench it. (breathing drills)
10. lift it. (6 second drills)
11. stand with it. (do dudd drills.)
12. test.

as you can see, type gun is a very small segment of the learning process. many factors will determine the correct answer.
hope this helps.
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Old July 9, 2020, 08:19 PM   #61
tallball
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22 bolt action rifle (if possible)
22 SA revolver
22 DA revolver
22 automatic
32 revolver
32 automatic (Colt 1903)
380 automatic (Colt Government)
38 special revolver
9mm automatic
etc.

I've taught quite a few people to shoot. Some of my low-recoil handguns I bought specifically to help my daughter learn.
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