Considering Switching from .45 Auto to 9mm

[T. O'Heir]

The difference between 9mm and the .45 out of like pistols(barrel lengths) isn't enough to matter. I do find there's more muzzle blast with 9mm out of my Inglis BHP vs my Colt with 1" barrel length difference.
"...master it..." Exactly. Shot placement is far more important.
"...Arthritis in my wrists and thumb joint..." Using 9mm isn't going to help.

[jr24]

While I still can and occasionally do carry a 1911 in .45 I made the switch to 9mm a while back for a couple of simple reasons.

1. I am not convinced, given proper shot placement, the .45 offers significant enough advantage ballistically to justify the greater recoil and lower capacity.
2. I shoot my 9mms over 30% faster, with better rapid fire accuracy over my .45s. Given the need of my gun (unlikely at best) I will likely be shooting rapidly, I want as many rounds on target as fast as I can.
3. My Sig 226 is the same size (roughly) as my bobbed 1911, yet carries 10 more rounds before reload. I recognize I will likely not need them, but I'd rather have them.

I think both are good carry calibers (as are .40 and .357 sig) but the 9mm works well for me.

Yes, 9mm is cheaper, but since I reload it's a difference of 3-5 cents a round so its definately not my primary, secondary or even tertiary motivator.

[dwhite]

YES!

More and more people dumping their .40's and .45's for 9mm. LOVE IT.

Last year I picked up 3000 .40 cases for $40 because the guy couldn't move them.

When the next ammo crunch comes got a feeling I'll be able to feed my .40's and .45 because everybody switched to 9mm.


Muwahhahahaha!!!

All the Best,
D. White

[30-06 Rifleman]

Thanks for the replies so far. The FBI's bad day in 1986 definitely had more to do with other factors than using 9mm. I also understand that today's 9mm ammo is lightyears ahead of the old Winchester Silvertip 115gr. Sounds like even FMJ would've had a better outcome for that particular shot.

And here's where we get into why I think a lot of people like 9mm.

No doubt that's a reason, but it's directly tied to having a favorable outcome in self defense situation. Cheaper ammo means you can practice more (no matter what your personal ammo budget is), and more practice improves your odds of a successful outcome when it counts. Couple that with the larger calibers giving no significant advantage (something I'm still trying to wrap my head around and don't necessarily buy at this moment), and it is a compelling argument for 9mm.

Does anyone have a source on any of these PD's saying that their 9mm in officer involved shootings is performing on par with their larger calibers?

[SIGSHR]

Limited to hardball, I think Cooper is right. Bill Jordan said the 38 Special is the most powerful round the average man-i.e. most of us-can master, the 9MMP is the semiauto version of the 38 Special. A 9MM in a steel frame is a pleasure to shoot. Bill Jordan also said that speed and power are fine, but accuracy is final. And Cooper noted that the Combat Mindset is all important.
Anyway, who says you are limited to just one caliber ?

[HighValleyRanch]

This came up in a thread about .380 a while back, but you might find this article interesting about various caliber stopping power:
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power

[TunnelRat]

How do you gauge though if one caliber is performing on par with another? You can't go back in time, replace the caliber, and try again. That's the problem. Every situation is unique and the shot placement on the target varies, with that shot placement having a high implication on the outcome.

There are any number of stories of officers surviving multiple hits with a 45 ACP, (Officer Reston https://youtu.be/ArDRg5SkuT0, http://m.policemag.com/article/1678/...ida-01-26-2008), and there are stories of officers needing a lot of rounds to stop an attacker (Sergeant Gramins https://www.policeone.com/police-her...mo-on-the-job/). But these are, to be fair, anecdotal. I don't know how to generate meaningful statistics from this that accurately reflect all of the factors in the terminal effect of handgun rounds.

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[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by SIGSHR

Limited to hardball, I think Cooper is right. Bill Jordan said the 38 Special is the most powerful round the average man-i.e. most of us-can master, the 9MMP is the semiauto version of the 38 Special. A 9MM in a steel frame is a pleasure to shoot. Bill Jordan also said that speed and power are fine, but accuracy is final. And Cooper noted that the Combat Mindset is all important.
Anyway, who says you are limited to just one caliber ?

Except a 9mm out of even smaller semiautos will have significantly more muzzle energy than a 38 Special, even +P, from a snub. 357 magnum is a different story, but like you say that isn't particularly controllable.

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[IdaD]

I threw the Lucky Gunner gel tests into Excel for kicks. If you delete the 7 (for 9mm and 40) or 9 (for 45) rounds that had no expansion, mostly these were lower end loads, here are the average penetration and expansion numbers:

9mm - 17.3" penetration, .54" expansion

40 - 17.2" penetration, .65" expansion

45 - 16.1" penetration, .69" expansion

Or if you include the loads that failed to expand, so all of the Lucky Gunner data:

9mm - 17.4" penetration, .51" expansion

40 - 18.6" penetration, .61" expansion

45 - 18.4" penetration, .62 expansion

In terms of hollow point expansion, 13% of the 9mm failed to meaningfully expand versus 18% for 40 and 26% for 45. This probably is directly related to average velocities - 1100 for 9mm, 1020 for 40 and 906 for 45.

I look at these numbers and see three awfully similar performers. Not quite like choosing between a 243 and a 300 Weatherby to go after a mulie.

[tlm225]

T. O'heir wrote:

The difference between 9mm and the .45 out of like pistols(barrel lengths) isn't enough to matter. I do find there's more muzzle blast with 9mm out of my Inglis BHP vs my Colt with 1" barrel length difference.
"...master it..." Exactly. Shot placement is far more important.
"...Arthritis in my wrists and thumb joint..." Using 9mm isn't going to help.

And you base this on, what? Keeping gun weights equal a 230 grain .45 at 850 FPS generates just slightly less than twice the recoil energy of a 124 grain 9mm at 1150. I've shot both and there is a distinct difference. Now if you have something more....

[RickB]

Carried a "compact", 6+1 .45 for many years, and am now carrying a 7+1 9mm that is literally half the size and weight.
I don't think I'll ever be convinced that 9 is a better defense round than .45, but ammo development has made the 9 good enough; marksmanship is still the most important factor.

[kdrf636]

9mm is cheaper, lighter, allows for more firepower and has a milder recoil.

.45 makes a slightly bigger hole.

Currently, I only use 9mm and .38 special.

I got rid of the .357 and never owned a .45.

[DukeConnor]

9mm is boring.

[Mike Irwin]

"9mm is boring."

Yep! And EVERYONE knows that one's choice of a personal protection round should be driven primarily by how much entertainment it provides!

Clowns! Bells! Fireworks! Dancing Bears!

That's what's important!

Jesus wept... really?

[mgulino]

OP - Caliber is not as important as being able to put the bullet where you want. The bad guy won't be able to tell the difference if hit in the vitals with a .35, 40, or .45 caliber round.
Carry and use whichever you are most comfortable with, can shoot the best, and can practice with the most.

[Dave T]

I've been watching the crowning of the 9mm as the self-defense, concealed carry cartridge of choice for a number of years now. Since it's easier to shoot and cheaper, the guns are lighter and hold more rounds, it's no wonder everyone is so convinced it's just as good as the 40 or 45. Makes you feel better about your choice.

Since I'm an old fart who spent my LEO career and 30 years since then carrying one kind of 45 ACP or another, I'm just gonna go on doing so. If I'm wrong and they burry me because of it...well, they're gonna bury me before long anyway.

Argue away boys and girls. It's entertaining to read, if a bit silly at times.

Dave

[TunnelRat]

Thanks for your addition to the conversation. Enlightening.

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[Spats McGee]

I can’t do math. That’s why I went to law school. With that said, I am fairly convinced that.45 acp is better than 9mm, when compared round-for-round. That’s one of the reasons I carried a 1911 in .45 for several years. When I decided to look for something lighter than my 1911, I started looking at all kinds of things. I realized that if I was willing to switch to 9mm:

• Practice ammo would be about half the cost of .45.
• I could carry twice as much ammo in a lighter pistol (1911 vs G19). Or
• I could carry the same amount of ammo in a substantially lighter pistol (1911 vs. Shield).

After I thought about that, the question morphed from “is .45 better than 9mm?,” into “is a fairly uncomfortable 15 rounds of .45 better than 30 rounds of moderately comfortable 9mm, or 25 rounds of very comfortable 9mm?”

[Ruger45LC]

I think there are advantages to the .40 and .45 over the 9mm, but that's lost to most people. Sure the 9mm will kill, but will it stop the treat as fast as a bigger bullet? Everyone is different, I'm a huge .40 fan yet many seem to hate it. I shot a Gen4 19 beside a Gen4 23 and there wasn't a big difference in recoil, but the .40 pokes bigger holes, as does the .45. I don't doubt for a second the .40 and .45 are better at stopping threats than the 9mm is, but at the same time, I'm not implying the 9mm is bad, it's just not as good. It's all a trade off really, but I'm not willing to give up effectiveness in favor of an ever so slightly faster follow up shot.

I've had a Gen4 21 and to me, it shoots very softly. But I guess that's the rub, are you willing to give up effectiveness for speed? Does higher speed mean more effective? To me, you can shoot all of them fast enough that it's not going to matter in real life, in other words defending yourself successfully isn't going to come down to a few milliseconds difference between shots. If you're a competitive shooter, maybe it matters, but otherwise, give me fast and more effective over slightly faster and less effective.

[AK103K]

How many rounds of ANY of them, does it take to stop any problem?

And yes, its a trick question.


The answer is very simple, but seems lost on many.

[Cosmodragoon]

It's true that ammo technology has improved over the years. I think 9mm in particular has benefited from these advances. In terms of effectiveness versus .45, it's still the classic argument of big and slow versus small and fast. Since 9mm also has advantages with respect to cost, capacity, recoil, and size for concealment; I'd choose it over .45 any day of the week for EDC.

I think .40 S&W offers an excellent balance of velocity, mass, and capacity. However, I find it unpleasantly snappy in smaller guns. That means liking it in larger pistols and that can be tough for EDC.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Ruger45LC

I think there are advantages to the .40 and .45 over the 9mm, but that's lost to most people. Sure the 9mm will kill, but will it stop the treat as fast as a bigger bullet? Everyone is different, I'm a huge .40 fan yet many seem to hate it. I shot a Gen4 19 beside a Gen4 23 and there wasn't a big difference in recoil, but the .40 pokes bigger holes, as does the .45. I don't doubt for a second the .40 and .45 are better at stopping threats than the 9mm is, but at the same time, I'm not implying the 9mm is bad, it's just not as good. It's all a trade off really, but I'm not willing to give up effectiveness in favor of an ever so slightly faster follow up shot.

I've had a Gen4 21 and to me, it shoots very softly. But I guess that's the rub, are you willing to give up effectiveness for speed? Does higher speed mean more effective? To me, you can shoot all of them fast enough that it's not going to matter in real life, in other words defending yourself successfully isn't going to come down to a few milliseconds difference between shots. If you're a competitive shooter, maybe it matters, but otherwise, give me fast and more effective over slightly faster and less effective.

The goal isn't to poke holes. The goal is to end a fight. The fastest way to do that is by disabling or destroing the central nervous system or causing massive blood loss. That to me isn't accomplished by making holes that are ~0.10" wider than other options. It's accomplished by hitting the organs or systems of the human body that relate to those functions and doing so with enough mass and velocity to cause the requisite damage. That's shot placement. I already posted a few stories and I can find basically countless others of people surviving multiple shots with handgun calibers. These aren't the hammer of Thor and the differences we're discussing aren't anywhere near what they are for certain rifle cartridges.

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[DukeConnor]

Mike Irwin, I feel that post is a little harsh. I find shooting 9mm boring. I also find 9mm chambered guns boring. I own them, I shoot them, I carry them. I just don't feel any joy shooting them. I meant no harm. Just my opinion


I am a little confused about the Jesus and clowns reference.

[Hawg]

.45 ACP, putting down bad guys since 1905. Good enough for me. I've had several 9 MM's over the years. Never kept one for long.

[jmr40]

Go with the 9mm. It's an upgrade.

The military was disappointed in the performance of 45 ACP at the end of WW-2 and spent considerable time in 1946 testing 9mm vs 45 side by side. They concluded back then that 9mm was the clear winner and wanted to dump both the 1911 and 45 ACP in favor of a modern high capacity 9mm pistol then.


Budget cuts, and warehouses full of perfectly functional 1911's and 45 ammo meant the project was shelved and forgotten for 40 years until those 1911s were worn out and replaced with the Beretta 9mm in 1985.

Most of what we think we know about the 45 is based on the highly fictional writings of Jeff Cooper after the war. Still today his hyperbole is taken as gospel over facts by many.

Modern advancements have made all ammo much better, not just 9mm. You can go back over 100 years and look at all of the data, test results, and research and see that as long as comparable ammo is used 9mm and 45 ACP have always netted near identical results. But 9mm has, and always will cost less, recoil less, have more ammo capacity in comparable size guns, (or allow smaller guns to be carried), and most people shoot 9mm more accurately.