GSG-5P with stock NOT SBR???

AdamWebber · February 21, 2010, 02:21 PM

I've got a question regarding SBR laws. I currently have a GSG-5 rifle with the fake suppressor and 16 inch barrel. I recently bought a GSG-5P Pistol with the 9" barrel and no stock. During my purchase, the gun store owner suggested that I buy the retractable stock and convert my pistol to a short-barreled rifle using the $200 tax fee. I currently have two stocks for my GSG-5 Rifle and considered using one of them for the pistol after getting the tax stamp. I also began reviewing laws including the national firearms act regarding the short-barreled rifle.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 title 18, United States Code, Chapter 44 states that a short-barreled rifle is a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

If I were to add my second stock to my GSG-5P, the total length of the pistol would be 28 inches, two inches greater than the law states. Would this make my GSG-5P exempt from the tax stamp since the overall length exceeds the length requirements of short-barreled rifle? At this point, would it be considered just a plain old rifle? I visited the ATF website and viewed their FAQs.

Q: If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm?

Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser “Broomhandles” and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors’ items.

[26 U.S.C. 5845, 27 CFR 479.11]

This Q&A seems to conflict with the law. They state that it must be over 26 inches AND have a 16 inch barrel to legally be a rifle. The Gun Control Act states that a SBR must have a 16 in barrel IF the weapon is under 26 inches in overall length.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but I sure would like to know. If there is anyone out there with perfect clarity on this subject, please let me know.
Thanks

Venom1956 · February 21, 2010, 02:25 PM

No your GSG is a PISTOL not a RIFLE serial number. Thats how its registered.

Your comparing laws for rifles to laws of pistols.

adding a stock to a GSG-5P makes it an AOW I believe. I know adding a foregrip to a pistol definitely does.

If you have a pistol with a sixteen inch barrel it is legal to add a stock if it brings the overall length more then 26" because it then conforms to the laws of non-SBR rifles.

If you want my suggestion order a second pistol barrel after you get the tax stamp and install it on your rifle thats your safest course of action IMHO.

AdamWebber · February 21, 2010, 04:02 PM

So let's say that we forget that I even have the pistol and I install a shorter barrel on my rifle (or lop off a few inches) yet still maintain the requirement for having an overall length of greater than 26 inches. Would it now become a short-barrel rifle considering the aforementioned questions or will it just become a rifle with a shorter overall length?
Honestly, I would like to see the written and documented law specifically stating definitions and clauses. If you've seen anything, please post it.

Venom1956 · February 21, 2010, 04:11 PM

Nope as soon as the barrel is reduced to under 16 inches or when the overall length is under 26 total inches, it then becomes a SBR.

That is what the FIRST part of your OP pertains to... RIFLES

The second pertains to PISTOLS.

Your kinda comparing apples to oranges. I don't have the actual citation on hand but I'm sure someone will come to confirm or correct it.

but you have the regulations right there in your OP

David Hineline · February 21, 2010, 04:33 PM

Your rifle becomes a short rifle if you shorten the barrel shorter than 16" or if when you remove the stock the overall becomes less than 26". So depending upon the length of your receiver your lower barrel length might be 18 or 20" long if the receiver was short enough that with a 16" barrel and stock removed it does not make 26". Federal law allows the measure to be with the folding stock open, some states require the 26" to be stock folded so a longer barrel is needed.

Your pistol becomes a short rifle, if a stock up put on it and you don't also add a barrel extension to take it up to the 16" and 26" overall requirement.

So you could put the buttstock on your pistol and weld a silencer onto the barrel long enough to make the length ok and not have to register the pistol as a short rifle.

Having an extra stock that will fit the pistol is going to be a tough road to convince the legal system that you had no intent to create an illegal weapon with it.

On to the topic did you know that your fake silencer is not a real silencer and must be returned to the importer for replacement for a fake silencer.

AdamWebber · February 21, 2010, 10:29 PM

I did know that the fake silencer on the GSG was against NFA regulations (for what reason nobody knows) but that is only on the GSG-5 SD model. Mine is the plain 'ol carbine GSG-5. If I could guess as to why the ATF would call it illegal, I would think that since it can be added onto a shorter barrel, replacing the flash suppressor, the hollowed-out portion could be utilized as a make-shift silencer. But that's just a guess.

As for short rifles, from what I gather from your post, if the overall length is greater than 26 inches AND the barrel is at least 16 inches, it is a rifle. Any shorter length on either one constitutes a short rifle.

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to get the SBR tax stamp for the rifle regardless. I guess that I am reading into the Gun Control Act a little too closely as well. I keep going back to it and it clearly states that regardless of how long the barrel is, as long as the overall length is greater than 26 inches, it is not a short barrel rifle. I would be absolutely fine with the whole definition if they had used the word "OR" instead of using the word "AND".

w_houle · February 21, 2010, 10:53 PM

Quote:

I recently bought a GSG-5P Pistol with the 9" barrel and no stock.

If I were to add your second stock to your GSG-5P, it becomes a rifle with a 9" barrel. If your GSG-5P had a 16" barrel, it would just become a rifle, but would then become an SBR the second the stock came off due to no longer complying with the OAL rule.
It's the reason people don't actually like the 1911 carbine conversion kits, because technically when you put the 1911 receiver onto the carbine kit it becomes a rifle and when you return it to being a 1911: Technically it's an SBR.

Willie Lowman · February 22, 2010, 10:59 AM

Quote:

I keep going back to it and it clearly states that regardless of how long the barrel is, as long as the overall length is greater than 26 inches, it is not a short barrel rifle.

Where does it say "regardless of how long barrel is"?

I don't think you are reading close enough. Overall length requirements are for the length of the gun. (26") Barrel length requirements are for the barrel (16") You must satisfy both requirements to not be regulated by the NFA.

David Hineline · February 22, 2010, 11:12 AM

It's just the way the man is reading it and hoping it was the way he wants it to sound.

The way it should read is any rifle with less than 16" barrel and any rifle with an overall length less that 26" is a short barreled rifle.

He is reading the sentence as a combination of less than 16" barrel and less than 26" overall.

They are describing 2 different guns he reads it as one combination gun.

Won't matter how he reads it the upto $250,000 fine and upto 10yrs in prison is pretty clear per violation whether it is two separate guns or one combination gun.

paull · February 22, 2010, 01:37 PM

^^^As above^^^

Look at it this way...
If it has a stock AND is less than 26" in TOTAL length = SBR, needs stamp.

if it has a stock AND a barrel less than 16" in length = SBR, needs stamp.

if it has a stock, it is a rifle...
if it is a rifle with a short barrel or short overall length, it's NFA stuff.

p

Many SBR's have a short barrel and a short OAL.

Venom1956 · February 23, 2010, 10:38 PM

+1 to David Hineline.

WoofersInc · February 24, 2010, 01:59 PM

Don't get so worked up over this guys. Remember you are trying to interpret regulations by an agency that determined that a shoestring is a machine gun. And recently made the determination that a hollow tube is a silencer after they said it wasn't a silencer.

It's ATF. It's not always going to have common sense applied to it.

February 21, 2010, 02:21 PM	#1
AdamWebber Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2010 Posts: 3	GSG-5P with stock NOT SBR??? I've got a question regarding SBR laws. I currently have a GSG-5 rifle with the fake suppressor and 16 inch barrel. I recently bought a GSG-5P Pistol with the 9" barrel and no stock. During my purchase, the gun store owner suggested that I buy the retractable stock and convert my pistol to a short-barreled rifle using the $200 tax fee. I currently have two stocks for my GSG-5 Rifle and considered using one of them for the pistol after getting the tax stamp. I also began reviewing laws including the national firearms act regarding the short-barreled rifle. The Gun Control Act of 1968 title 18, United States Code, Chapter 44 states that a short-barreled rifle is a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. If I were to add my second stock to my GSG-5P, the total length of the pistol would be 28 inches, two inches greater than the law states. Would this make my GSG-5P exempt from the tax stamp since the overall length exceeds the length requirements of short-barreled rifle? At this point, would it be considered just a plain old rifle? I visited the ATF website and viewed their FAQs. Q: If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm? Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser “Broomhandles” and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors’ items. [26 U.S.C. 5845, 27 CFR 479.11] This Q&A seems to conflict with the law. They state that it must be over 26 inches AND have a 16 inch barrel to legally be a rifle. The Gun Control Act states that a SBR must have a 16 in barrel IF the weapon is under 26 inches in overall length. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but I sure would like to know. If there is anyone out there with perfect clarity on this subject, please let me know. Thanks

February 21, 2010, 02:25 PM	#2
Venom1956 Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2008 Location: WI Posts: 3,656	No your GSG is a PISTOL not a RIFLE serial number. Thats how its registered. Your comparing laws for rifles to laws of pistols. adding a stock to a GSG-5P makes it an AOW I believe. I know adding a foregrip to a pistol definitely does. If you have a pistol with a sixteen inch barrel it is legal to add a stock if it brings the overall length more then 26" because it then conforms to the laws of non-SBR rifles. If you want my suggestion order a second pistol barrel after you get the tax stamp and install it on your rifle thats your safest course of action IMHO. __________________ E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that. I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug Last edited by Venom1956; February 21, 2010 at 02:35 PM.

February 21, 2010, 04:11 PM	#4
Venom1956 Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2008 Location: WI Posts: 3,656	Nope as soon as the barrel is reduced to under 16 inches or when the overall length is under 26 total inches, it then becomes a SBR. That is what the FIRST part of your OP pertains to... RIFLES The second pertains to PISTOLS. Your kinda comparing apples to oranges. I don't have the actual citation on hand but I'm sure someone will come to confirm or correct it. but you have the regulations right there in your OP __________________ E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that. I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug Last edited by Venom1956; February 21, 2010 at 04:17 PM.

February 23, 2010, 10:38 PM	#11
Venom1956 Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2008 Location: WI Posts: 3,656	+1 to David Hineline. __________________ E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that. I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug

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February 21, 2010, 04:02 PM	#3
AdamWebber Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2010 Posts: 3	So let's say that we forget that I even have the pistol and I install a shorter barrel on my rifle (or lop off a few inches) yet still maintain the requirement for having an overall length of greater than 26 inches. Would it now become a short-barrel rifle considering the aforementioned questions or will it just become a rifle with a shorter overall length? Honestly, I would like to see the written and documented law specifically stating definitions and clauses. If you've seen anything, please post it.

February 21, 2010, 04:33 PM	#5
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	Your rifle becomes a short rifle if you shorten the barrel shorter than 16" or if when you remove the stock the overall becomes less than 26". So depending upon the length of your receiver your lower barrel length might be 18 or 20" long if the receiver was short enough that with a 16" barrel and stock removed it does not make 26". Federal law allows the measure to be with the folding stock open, some states require the 26" to be stock folded so a longer barrel is needed. Your pistol becomes a short rifle, if a stock up put on it and you don't also add a barrel extension to take it up to the 16" and 26" overall requirement. So you could put the buttstock on your pistol and weld a silencer onto the barrel long enough to make the length ok and not have to register the pistol as a short rifle. Having an extra stock that will fit the pistol is going to be a tough road to convince the legal system that you had no intent to create an illegal weapon with it. On to the topic did you know that your fake silencer is not a real silencer and must be returned to the importer for replacement for a fake silencer.

February 21, 2010, 10:29 PM	#6
AdamWebber Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2010 Posts: 3	I did know that the fake silencer on the GSG was against NFA regulations (for what reason nobody knows) but that is only on the GSG-5 SD model. Mine is the plain 'ol carbine GSG-5. If I could guess as to why the ATF would call it illegal, I would think that since it can be added onto a shorter barrel, replacing the flash suppressor, the hollowed-out portion could be utilized as a make-shift silencer. But that's just a guess. As for short rifles, from what I gather from your post, if the overall length is greater than 26 inches AND the barrel is at least 16 inches, it is a rifle. Any shorter length on either one constitutes a short rifle. I'm pretty sure that I'm going to get the SBR tax stamp for the rifle regardless. I guess that I am reading into the Gun Control Act a little too closely as well. I keep going back to it and it clearly states that regardless of how long the barrel is, as long as the overall length is greater than 26 inches, it is not a short barrel rifle. I would be absolutely fine with the whole definition if they had used the word "OR" instead of using the word "AND".

February 22, 2010, 11:12 AM	#9
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	It's just the way the man is reading it and hoping it was the way he wants it to sound. The way it should read is any rifle with less than 16" barrel and any rifle with an overall length less that 26" is a short barreled rifle. He is reading the sentence as a combination of less than 16" barrel and less than 26" overall. They are describing 2 different guns he reads it as one combination gun. Won't matter how he reads it the upto $250,000 fine and upto 10yrs in prison is pretty clear per violation whether it is two separate guns or one combination gun.

February 22, 2010, 01:37 PM	#10
paull Junior member Join Date: November 9, 1999 Location: SE Texas, 'tween Houston & Galveston Posts: 157	^^^As above^^^ Look at it this way... If it has a stock AND is less than 26" in TOTAL length = SBR, needs stamp. if it has a stock AND a barrel less than 16" in length = SBR, needs stamp. if it has a stock, it is a rifle... if it is a rifle with a short barrel or short overall length, it's NFA stuff. p Many SBR's have a short barrel and a short OAL.

February 24, 2010, 01:59 PM	#12
WoofersInc Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 224	Don't get so worked up over this guys. Remember you are trying to interpret regulations by an agency that determined that a shoestring is a machine gun. And recently made the determination that a hollow tube is a silencer after they said it wasn't a silencer. It's ATF. It's not always going to have common sense applied to it.