Kicked off range for not having NFA paperwork...

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by gyvel

....some LEO, going on the basis of prima facie evidence, actually arrests (NOT detains) you for possessing the weapon, and you do not have your stamped paperwork with you, which, BY LAW you are NOT required have in your immediate possession, wouldn't you have a whopper of a case for false arrest once you go to court and produce said documentation?...

Nope. It would be a lawful arrest. Prima facie evidence constitutes probable cause, and an LEO is entitled to arrest on probable cause.

See posts 91 and 112.

Originally Posted by gyvel

....The only parallel I have for this is a former acquaintance who was stopped by a Chandler, AZ LEO one night while walking with his girlfriend...

Not at all parallel. You've stated nothing that could be probable cause for arrest. Walking at night is not, in and of itself, a crime. Possession of an unregistered NFA weapon is a crime, and the only way a person in possession of such a weapon can demonstrate he's in lawful possession is by producing a copy of the NFA paper work.

[Powderman]

Now, assuming there are no state or local ordinances to the contrary and some LEO, going on the basis of prima facie evidence, actually arrests (NOT detains) you for possessing the weapon, and you do not have your stamped paperwork with you, which, BY LAW you are NOT required have in your immediate possession, wouldn't you have a whopper of a case for false arrest once you go to court and produce said documentation?

Suggestion: See Terry v. Ohio, cert. to the Supreme Court of OH, 392 US.

[Hkmp5sd]

Here is my take on the issue. Under Florida law, a machinegun is only legal if registered under federal guidelines.

790.221 Possession of short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or machine gun; penalty.--

(1) It is unlawful for any person to own or to have in his or her care, custody, possession, or control any short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or machine gun which is, or may readily be made, operable; but this section shall not apply to antique firearms.

(2) A person who violates this section commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(3) Firearms in violation hereof which are lawfully owned and possessed under provisions of federal law are excepted.

If you are stopped by a Florida LEO with a machinegun, you must show proof that the machinegun is owned under federal law. If you want to do that at the police station in the presence of an ATF agent, go for it. If you want your $20,000 machinegun bouncing around in the trunk of a patrol car for the trip, go for it. If you think you can hit the lottery on a false arrest lawsuit, go to it. If you have any common sense, put a copy of your forms in the case with your machinegun.

[Powderman]

And, with that in mind, let's take this to another level.

Suppose that you are at home. You have just moved into a nice, quiet neighborhood. You also live in a State like Alaska or Vermont--open carry/concealed carry/etc.

Now, you're standing outside and you notice that a guy is standing by a vehicle. He is carrying a firearm that you KNOW is a submachine gun. At the same time, I come cruising through in my patrol unit. I also see the weapon; you see me stop and make contact with the guy.

Would you still say that I was wrong is asking the guy to produce his NFA paperwork?

[Hkmp5sd]

Would you still say that I was wrong is asking the guy to produce his NFA paperwork?

No, I would not say you were wrong.

Unlike common, Title 1 weapons, machineguns are restricted. They are totally illegal unless registered. You can cry 2nd Amendment, invasion of privacy or false arrest until the cows come home, but keep a copy of your forms handy.

[Johnny Guest]

Friends, I believe each and every permutation of the law has been discussed at least once. Yeah, we can keep coming up with off-the-wall scenarios, but it wouldn't much alter the facts. Even the OP, cptsplashdown, has repeatedly stated that the question has been answered.

We can all agree that the laws concening NFA items are imperfect, and surely imperfectly administered. Unless and until you --WE, actually-- can convince a majority of voters that such federal laws should be voided or massively modified, we have little or no chance at making things better. THEN, you'll notice, NFA-weapons enthusiasts will need to go the individual states and work to have THEIR laws changed.

This last is not truly beyond hope. I personally remember when federal law allowed for registration of machine guns, but TEXAS law forbade personal ownership. After considerable hassle, state law was changed to allow for possession/ownership IF federal registration was accomplished.

Anyhow, rather than see this entire topic beaten to death again and again, the thread is - -
CLOSED.

Johnny