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Old September 11, 2019, 01:27 PM   #101
F. Guffey
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I have never had a problem with what folks think and or assume; I have no problem explaining to them I had rather feed it and watch it eat than to shoot it. There was a most interesting story about one of my grandsons and the first day of deer season, I would love to share but you guys are too fast to go widely indigent so I will spare you.

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Old September 11, 2019, 02:23 PM   #102
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Sure
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Old September 11, 2019, 02:53 PM   #103
Bart B.
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Originally Posted by F. Guffey View Post
I have never had a problem with what folks think and or assume.

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Except whenever "headspace" is mentioned.
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Old September 11, 2019, 07:03 PM   #104
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Headspace , I can't even say benchrest shooter.
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Old September 11, 2019, 07:08 PM   #105
F. Guffey
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Except whenever "headspace" is mentioned.
And then there are things I can not change, I have no problem accepting that. SAAMI does not list head space for the case in their drawings. That leaves me with cases that do not have head space. I did not call SAAMI, I am not that hard headed. I did not invest a lot of time pushing the ideal, I did not try to convince anyone the case had head space before I knew the case did not have head space.

MY case gages are not case head space gages; a reloader that has been around for anytime should know the case gage has been with us sense 1938.

And then newbies were introduced to the head space gage with the Larry Willis Digital head space gage. At best it could qualify as a comparator and it was nothing more than a dial indicator stand, and in my opinion his comparator stand was a cheap one.

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Old September 12, 2019, 12:35 AM   #106
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So I'm reading though this thread and I get to page 4 and realize I don't remember what the original topic was - lol , I'll go back and look just to refresh my memory .

EDIT :
LMAO , this is about neck sizing or FL sizing and what are the pros and cons .

I think the pros and cons are more opinion then facts . There are likely just as many doing both and either side will tell you there are no cons while telling all the pros .

For me I never saw a difference in neck sizing only but should add I did not do a whole lot of testing with only neck sizing . Since accuracy was not effected and if I'm going to do a full stroke with my press I figured I might as well FL size every time .

Now it is important to minimally FL size if there is such a thing . Yes I know here we go AGAIN I've been asking this in other forums lately and that is , What's your definition of FL sizing , It sounds like a stupid question but after years of being on these forums I've realized FL sizing does not mean the same to everyone . Some say you can only FL size if you are using a standard die and shell holder and they make firm contact at the top of the stroke . That definition means you have FL sized it to minimum spec and have in fact fully sized every portion of the case because there is no more sizing to be done if your standard die and shell holder are making hard contact .

But wait , what if you're using competition shell holders , more specific the #10 comp shell holder and still making hard contact between the die and shell holder . With the #10 holder you are sizing your case .010 longer from head to datum then you are with a standard shell holder . So are you still FL sizing ?? I mean you really have .010 of sizable space so really you are partially sizing the case even though you are making hard contact ??

What if you have a really out of spec chamber Like I do with one of my 308" to where I'm sizing my cases to pretty much a field gauge length . Even my #10 shell holder still bumps the shoulder .003 more then I really want . So now I'm not even making contact between the die and shell hold but still am using my FL die to size my case to fit my chamber ??? Is that FL sizing ???

Then there's the using a FL sizing die to partially size the neck about half way down . What the heck do you call that ? IMHO that would be the definition of partial FL sizing and everything else above would be FL sizing .

OP , How do you "FL size" your cases ?
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Old September 12, 2019, 01:44 AM   #107
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This thread has become yesterdays soup warmed over, or yesterdays hash, rewarmed (rehashed). Think I'll go clean the lint out of my sock drawer.
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Old September 12, 2019, 06:58 AM   #108
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Some years ago, I asked several reloading die companies what full length sizing means.

In so many words, they all said it means reducing all the fired case outside dimensions except case head to mouth length and the case head area behind the pressure ring the die doesn't touch. Doesn't mean returning the fired case to some minimum specification. Only .0005 inch less is enough to qualify.

Their reasoning was based on the fact that there are tolerances in dimension specs for dies and new cases. And the dies we use are not identical in chambers o those that shaped the original new case dimensions.

Last edited by Bart B.; September 12, 2019 at 09:09 AM.
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Old September 12, 2019, 11:11 AM   #109
F. Guffey
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Some years ago, I asked several reloading die companies what full length sizing means.
You have trouble remembering from one day to the next. It could have been last week you were singing the praises of measuring the die and shell holder with a go-gage. You got it wrong but that did not slow you down. You could have done a cut and paste of a conversation Unclenick and I had 10 years ago.

I remember you asking SAAMI about case head space or were you telling them they made a mistake? My cases do not have head space because SAAMI does not include case head space in their case drawings.

So now you asked several reloading die companies? You assumed they were not reloaders that learned to reload on the Internet. I am sure had I called them the answer would have been different.

If you do not have minimum length/full length sizing you do not have anything. It is not beyond me to use a feeler gage, I am not too proud. When sizing a case I have want to know 'what won', the case or the press. If I make an attempt to return a case to minimum length by full length sizing the case I can verify. All 'I' have to do is measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder, if the press won there will not be a gap, the die will be setting on the shell holder.

If the case won because it has more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome there will be a gap. If 'I' want to know how much the case won by I can measure the gap.

And then there are a few reloaders that got a good early start. Again (I do not want to confuse you) I think nothing of removing the die from the press with the case still in the die to determine the amount of case head protrusion. If the shell holder deck height is .125" and the die made it to the top of the shell holder the case head protrusion will be .125".

I went for a visit to help an old friend, he had his A2 RCBS press locked up. I unlocked the press and then removed the case with die, the case head protrusion was .037, I understand that is in a foreign language to most but he had a press with .017" cam over and the rest of it was 'leaver lock'.

And before I left the house he instructed me to leave my 'no-name' case lube because there was nothing better than Dillon in the can or bottle or the other can.

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Old September 12, 2019, 11:24 AM   #110
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Their reasoning was based on the fact that there are tolerances in dimension specs for dies and new cases. And the dies we use are not identical in chambers o those that shaped the original new case dimensions.
I have dies that go back to the '50s, I have some very fine dies that were manufactured in the '60s. Because of my ability with dies and measurements I think nothing of choosing a 50 year old die set over a new set.

And then one day a shooter, reloader, collector from Bradford, Pa. sent me a set of dies with a case stuck securely in the sizing die. The die was not at the beginning of the production, it was not at the end of the production but it looked familiar, so I went to dig, finally I found it. My die is a very small base die, it keeps ever case that is pushed up into it. I offered to trade him for another set but the dies belonged to his father. I sent the dies back to him with a home made puller, he had already purchased another set.

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Old September 12, 2019, 12:02 PM   #111
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In so many words, they all said it means reducing all the fired case outside dimensions
That's pretty much how I think of it as well except for those that use a FL die but only size the neck about half way .
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Old September 12, 2019, 12:22 PM   #112
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I think if you resize the whole case at all, you FL size. Maybe not back to min spec. but you moved it all. If you neck size only with the FL die you are going to hit a situation where the case must be FL sized or you can't chamber it again. I call that partial sizing. You cannot bump the shoulder without resizing the whole case, can't be done. If it were possible the case you just bumped the shoulder on still would not chamber! The directions that come with die set's I've got over the years suggest the FL sizing will be to min spec. Has to be other wise they could leave you with a case that has been FL sized but still won't fit the chamber. I think I've mentioned my 243's. I have separate dies for each and the dies are set to partial size the case's. Partial is FL sizing to make the case fit a certain chamber. Well one of the set's will FL size the case's and the case's will work in both chamber's. The other set will also FL size the case's but the case's will only work in one of the chambers. Yet case's from both dies are FL sized, the entire case in each die is moved enough to allow the case to work is a specific chamber and in neither will the shoulder rub in the chamber closing other than the set for the larger chamber won't allow the bolt to close on one rifle, Both FL size for the rifle they are adjusted for.

Using manufacturer instruction's to set your dies insure's that the case will fit any chamber for that cartridge, sized to min spec.
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Old September 12, 2019, 12:27 PM   #113
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If you neck size only with a FL die, take the case out of the die and look at the neck and you can see where the case quit going into the die. My first round's with once fired case's get sized down the neck somewhere between half way and maybe 3/4 way. That is so the case body and shoulder will move to fill the chamber after which the bolt will no longer close on that case. That is the start of partial sizing or making the case fit that chamber.
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Old September 12, 2019, 12:44 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Metal god View Post
That's pretty much how I think of it as well except for those that use a FL die but only size the neck about half way .
That's typically called partial full length sizing. It often ends up moving the case shoulder forward some thousandths, sometimes binding the bolt closure, as the case body gets squeezed down a little bit.
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Old September 12, 2019, 02:19 PM   #115
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Posts # 113 and 114 provide a very good summation of this entire thread.

Guffy, why don't you start a thread for Reloading Anecdotes?
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Old September 12, 2019, 02:21 PM   #116
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Ok I can't resist stirring the pot


what about bump sizing?

https://www.forsterproducts.com/prod...t-sizing-dies/
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Old September 12, 2019, 02:23 PM   #117
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Wish your wife would break your wooden spoon.
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Old September 12, 2019, 03:39 PM   #118
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hey if you click on the "read more" it will have a neat little graphic showing a pair of cases with one labeled "after sizing" and showing how the die will give your case the "optimum headspace". Forster's choice of words not mine
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Old September 13, 2019, 08:19 AM   #119
F. Guffey
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Hey if you click on the "read more" it will have a neat little graphic showing a pair of cases with one labeled "after sizing" and showing how the die will give your case the "optimum headspace". Forster's choice of words not mine
Forster's choice of words: I understand you do not have a clue; you are too desperate for someone to agree with you.

Before you had no clue, meaning you did not know what 'it' is called it was called clearance. That would be the difference in length between the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face and the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head.

Again; I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the shoulder to case head. My cases do not have head space, the difference in length between the case and chamber when measured from the shoulder is not head space, meaning I can not have optimum head space because the head space in my chamber is measured from the datum to the bolt face. The head space of my chambers is not adjustable, clearance is different. I control clearance with the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head.

You should not allow this stuff to 'lock you up’; or drive you to the curb. Do not become infatuated with head space. And then there is that think called vanity; too many reloaders believe they invented this stuff. You are spending too much time trying to prove you were.

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Old September 13, 2019, 09:00 AM   #120
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Quote:
Forster's choice of words: I understand you do not have a clue; you are too desperate for someone to agree with you.

Before you had no clue, meaning you did not know what 'it' is called it was called clearance. That would be the difference in length between the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face and the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head


As soon as someone resorts to ad homs in a debate you know they have lost and are in a corner with no way out so they resort to schoolyard insults. You have no idea what I know and what I do not. I do know enough to get 1/3 to 1/2 MOA accuracy from my home built rifles and have posted many a target on these forums to prove it. Maybe you should post some pics of your targets.


Also I suggest you call up those people at Forster and just set them straight Guffy, tell them how you are the only reloader. Lets see how they respond
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Last edited by hounddawg; September 13, 2019 at 09:05 AM.
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Old September 13, 2019, 09:45 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
That link says sizing part of the case neck better centers it in the chamber neck. That's true when there's no external force (except gravity) on the cartridge and it lays in the bottom of the chamber.

That changes when an external force pushes the case forward centering its shoulder in the chamber shoulder raising the case neck and bullet centering both in the chamber neck with virtual equal clearance all around both before the round fires. If the case neck is well centered on the case shoulder to start with.

One external force is the ejector in the bolt face, if used. The other is the few ounce firing pin hitting the primer at over 15 fps pushed by a 20+ pound spring.
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Old September 13, 2019, 10:20 AM   #122
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well Bart maybe you and Guffy both need to call up Forster and set them straight since it is obvious that both of you think the Forster people know nothing about firearms.

or maybe both of you should just order this book from them


https://www.forsterproducts.com/prod...s-fred-zeglin/

according to the writeup

The subject is written in a way that any professional or hobbyist gunsmith can understand.

who knows maybe even a couple of old dogs could learn a new trick or two
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Old September 13, 2019, 10:34 AM   #123
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As soon as someone resorts to ad homs in a debate you know
Debate? I learned more about people by training dogs than I have learned from trying to live with people. My son left a dog for my wife to raise, train feed etc. It was not long before my friends would call to ask if I still had 'the dog', they quit coming, the same went for my relatives.

I put a sign on the front door, it was in Latin and went something like "Love me, Love my dog". The sign worked for St. Bernard, problem, my friends and relatives could not read Latin.

A friend suggested I contact "ALABAMA BLUEPIT", they suggested I contact Alabama Sally. They seem to think my wife's dog was an Alabama Leg Dog. And I wondered how it got to Texas.

I contacted her, she understood my dilemma, to save money she gave me instructions on the phone. She said Alabama Leg dogs are like a lot of people we know, she said the remedy is 100% fool proof. She said the Alabama Leg Dog was like a lot of people we know, they can dish that stuff out but they can not take it.

I have no ideal what is so difficult for you to understand, my cases do not have head space and the difference in length between the chamber and case is called clearance. And I ask over and over and over; "Where did the .002 clearance from". I am the one with the long 30/06 chamber, this stuff does not drive me to the curb. to off set the length of the chamber I add .014" to the length of the case between the shoulder of the case and case head by placing a .014" feeler gage between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die when adjusting the die and shell holder. Why .014"??? Because the chamber is field reject length + .002".

I have dealt with angry people for most of my like. And now you want me to call Forester? I have called die manufacturers, I called one because of reloaders on reloading forums taking what I thought were liberties. The question had to do with moving the shoulder back and bumping. My question: "How do they do that?" and then I blamed them for the confusion because the reloaders were confused by the name of the die'.

He explained to me they do not have a die that matches the reloaders description of the die, he said he understood what they are describing is impossible to do, 'BUMP DIE' designed to move the shoulder back, it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support. A die that does not have case body support will cause the case to bulge like a seating die when applying to much crimp whole the bullet is moving down when seating.
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Old September 13, 2019, 10:40 AM   #124
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Hounddawg, you misinterpreted what I said about Forster's comments. I think they know a lot about firearms. They didn't explain the rest of what happens before the round fires and where rimless bottleneck case necks and bullets are when the round fires.

Do you disagree with me on that issue?

Last edited by Bart B.; September 13, 2019 at 10:53 AM.
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Old September 13, 2019, 10:51 AM   #125
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Hounddawg, you misinterpreted what I said about Forster's comments. I think they know a lot about firearms. They didn't tell the rest of what happens when the round fires and where case necks and bullets are when the round fires.

Do you disagree with me on that issue?
I have no idea where the case is sitting when it fires. Don't really care. All I know is I like the POI's on the paper to be as close together as I can possibly get them. I'll let you and others worry about the angels dancing on the head of the pin issues
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