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Old May 15, 2017, 05:14 PM   #51
maestro pistolero
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Fox reporting on this now. . .

Some experts painting a pretty optimistic outlook for a cert grant. I would breath just a little easier if there were a second Trump appointee already on the bench.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/05/15...eme-court.html
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Old May 15, 2017, 05:24 PM   #52
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I won't hope that a decision would bring on the gun rights utopia. You could easily see a decision that looks good but has ambiguous or poison pill language.

If they go negative, then we get the result that the NRA feared when you go to the court. It's still 4 to 4 with Kennedy being the pivot. I agree that having another progun justice would have been better than pushing this now.
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Old May 16, 2017, 08:05 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Glenn
If they go negative, then we get the result that the NRA feared when you go to the court. It's still 4 to 4 with Kennedy being the pivot. I agree that having another progun justice would have been better than pushing this now.
As it stands, right now, it is perfectly fine for a state (within the 9th Circuit) to make concealed carry as difficult as it wants, even to the point of banning the practice entirely, because concealed carry is not a right.

That part of the Peruta decision comports with every other Federal Circuit Court of Appeals with the outlying exception of the 7th Circuit.. So there would appear, on the surface, to be no real judicial disagreement on the federal level.

The problem with the En Banc decision of the 9th Circuit is that they, like the original panel, had the option to kick the case back to the District Court. Why? Because in the interim of the decision of the District Court and the original appeal to the 9th Circuit, the CA law on open carry had changed. Dramatically.

Such a change in law is almost always kicked back to the originating court to be litigated.

Here, the appeals panel decided the case as if that change had been fully litigated. The result was a decision that was well within the bounds of the second amendment and comported very well with the 7th Circuits decision in Moore.

This decision resulted in an En Banc panel being called. At this point, the State of CA (who had declined to be heard at the District Court, because the lawsuit did not affect any CA law) wished to become a party, because they rightly saw that their open carry law could be overturned. Rightly or wrongly, the 9th Circuit allowed the State to become a party to the case(s).

After everything was said and done, the En Banc decision said that concealed carry was not a right within the bounds of the second amendment. The decision did not touch on the issue of a right to carry in some form or manner, outside of the front door of your house. The court simply ignored that part of the question before it.

Yes, it technically leaves the door open for a future case in deciding if a citizen has a right to carry openly. Yet at the same time, because the 9th circuit failed to kick the case back to the District court, and the court ignored that portion of the case tied to some form of carry, it has pretty much signaled how it would decide such a future case.

The effect of that decision is that within the 9th Circuit (9 states and 2 territories), carry anywhere outside of your house may be banned and leaves the second amendment a virtual toothless right. You may "keep" your arms, but you may not "bear" them.

So we are left with the possibility that the SCOTUS will not grant cert, thereby leaving the decision of the 9th circuit intact. That will have the affect of emboldening the other circuits to modify future decisions to employ the same results.

Or, the SCOTUS may grant cert and we let the marbles fall where they may.

That scares a lot of folks, Glenn. But I want to know, once and for all, whether or not the highest Court in the land says I can not protect myself against lethal threats outside of my domicile. That is what this case is about.
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Old May 16, 2017, 01:05 PM   #54
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We have to remember that although Gorsuch has replaced Scalia, nothing has really changed on the Court. Kennedy is still the swing vote, and may have expressed his unwillingness to extend 2nd Amendment rights outside of the home.

The fact that we have four solidly pro-2nd Amendment justices on the Court means that at least one of them is, indeed, "kicking the can down the road" until the Court again changes with another conservative/strict constructionist justice replacing Kennedy or one of the liberals.

Their continued relisting indicates to me that they want to take up the case, but are afraid they don't have the votes for the outcome they desire.
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Old May 16, 2017, 02:56 PM   #55
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Al , that was a very good take on the case and is exactly how i understand it . I live in San Diego where the case originated . I was one of many that went down and applied for a CCW permit after the 9ths three judge panel ruled in are favor



After the en-banc panel ruling they quickly denied all applicants that were on that waiting list
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Old May 17, 2017, 11:30 AM   #56
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Quote:
That scares a lot of folks, Glenn. But I want to know, once and for all, whether or not the highest Court in the land says I can not protect myself against lethal threats outside of my domicile. That is what this case is about.
Well, knowing that the 2nd Amend. is toothless except for owning a ducky-wucky gun is useful, I guess. if SCOTUS supports state bans on carry and the state AWB, mag bans - then IMHO, the amendment has been rendered worthless for protecting pragmatic SD issues beyond Joe Biden's shotgun tactics.
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Old May 18, 2017, 09:40 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Glenn
... then IMHO, the amendment has been rendered worthless for protecting pragmatic SD issues beyond Joe Biden's shotgun tactics.
It would be a watershed moment. I can see many states pushing back on the federal government, in the form of legislation that further affirms the rights of its citizens, as stated in their own Constitutions.

Consider the following,
Before the Heller decision, there were 6 states that had no constitutional provisions to bear arms: California, Iowa, Maryland, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York.1

Before the Heller decision, there were two states where the individual right to bear arms was not expressly characterized as individual, and their courts had not passed on the question: Hawaii, Virginia.1

Before the Heller decision, there were two states where the courts had treated the right as collective: Kansas, Massachusetts.1
Even assuming that those ten states remained as they were after the Heller decision, that still leaves forty state constitutions, or 80%, that an adverse Supreme Court decision would affect.

In sum, there are a lot of different outcomes that the Justices will have to think on, before they decide to grant or not grant cert.

1Data taken from "State Constitutional Rights to Keep and Bear Arms", Eugene Volokh, Texas Review of Law and Politics, 2007.
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Old May 18, 2017, 09:47 AM   #58
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The problem with state pushback is that Federal legislation could void all state laws. IIRC, Frank has pointed out that state laws offer little protection against a Federal law.

I also think it is quite important to break the hold that states like NY or CA have on their citizens. Those are major center of antigun activism and politicians. Rendering their restrictive laws null and void would be a major proactive step as compared to the current: Well, we are not Hillary - do nothing proactive strategy of the GOP.
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Old May 18, 2017, 11:29 AM   #59
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Okay, so I'm really late to this discussion and I'm not a lawyer or even terribly good at understanding laws (I went to Boy's State in high school, but that really doesn't help).

I cannot find what the actual original case was (presumably Peruta vs. County of San Diego?) and can only find the appeal (from the 9th circuit on upwards). I understand that at this point the SCOTUS is deciding whether or not to actually hear this appeal and make a decision (today, actually).

Can someone help me out here? I think this has a big deal to do with the laws of the country (even though I'm in CO).

I also read some of your comments on the laws in NY and being a former resident, I can't more agree. The problem comes that many of the laws and taxes and legislation that occurs in NY is due to the little corner that juts into the sea. Whilst not all of the rest of NY is conservative/Republican/pro-gun, when the voting is broken up by county, the rest of the state is *usually* more red than blue. Which I'm sure you already know, but to make anything move in that state, it has to affect or appeal to the residents of NYC, or it doesn't happen. Over half the population is in those 5 boroughs and it makes it difficult to make anything happen because many of those citizens don't even know that Niagara Falls is in NY(well part of it at least). Or that NY isn't the capitol.

EDIT: Felt the need to clarify a statement that NYC holds greater than 50% of the total population; it doesn't. HOWEVER "Down state" as it's coloquially known, DOES (a look at the most populated counties in New York State add up to over 50% of the total populus.)

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Old May 18, 2017, 02:57 PM   #60
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Go to youtube and search Edward Peruta v. County of San Diego . This will bring up the en-banc proceeding . Im on my phone and can't figure out how to link it
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Old May 18, 2017, 03:28 PM   #61
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Awesome, thanks.
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Old May 18, 2017, 11:35 PM   #62
Metal god
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The original 9th circuit three judge panels opinion This was a great win for us to only be overturned on en-banc
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOUR...10-56971-0.pdf

Incase anyone wants to watch the en-banc , here it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anKfVru1des&t=18s
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Old May 19, 2017, 10:02 AM   #63
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The Peruta case at the District Court level is documented on the Internet Archive. The link will take you to the archived docket information and all the filings that were archived. The judgment is item #64.
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Old May 19, 2017, 03:23 PM   #64
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SCOTUS orders for 18 May, 2017 will be available Monday morning:

http://www.scotusblog.com/
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Old May 22, 2017, 09:01 AM   #65
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No cert yet for Peruta.

http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files...ute-inc-v-lee/
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Old May 22, 2017, 10:08 AM   #66
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Metal God and Al Norris, thanks for the reading. I had no idea judges/lawyers were so long winded, yet elegant. The initial decision by the 9th circuit seems EXTREMELY bulletproof (ha what a pun), so I am shocked that it was overturned in en banc, though I haven't seen the video yet.

I feel that my thoughts match the 9th circuit initial decision and the "good cause" portion of the San Diego law is a loop hole to deny as many people from carrying as possible. I'd like to see the SCOTUS actually take this case, for good or bad.
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Old May 22, 2017, 11:54 AM   #67
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As Al pointed out . The way they over turned it was by ignoring the fact CA while the case worked through the courts banned open carry as well . By only focusing on conceal carry they were able to narrowly rule on the case . At worst the court should have sent the case back for trial based on open carry now being banned . When Peruta was first heard in 2012 unloaded open carry was still legal so Peruta still had an outlet to carry The state argues open carry is still allowed in unincorporated areas of CA and to be fare there is a lot of that area here .

The two glaring problems is

1) The likelihood of one needing a firearm for self defense out in the middle on nowhere is highly unlikely compared to needing one at Plaza Manor estates on Plaza Blvd in the heart of the city . I have personal experience with this location . After a back injury I did armed security for the place and we had some crazy things go on there . This was pushing 20 years ago but I still would not be there with out a firearm for self defense .

2) The regulations to carry in an unincorporated area are very restrictive . You literally must be out in the middle of the forest to open carry .

So the states claim that you can still carry in the majority of areas in CA is a red herring .
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Old May 24, 2017, 10:43 AM   #68
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Re-listed: May 22 2017 DISTRIBUTED for Conference of May 25, 2017.
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Old May 30, 2017, 08:47 AM   #69
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The 25th came and went, anything new?
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Old May 30, 2017, 09:37 AM   #70
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From SCOTUS Blog:

Quote:
Once again the court did not act on a major gun-rights case from California
http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files...were-watching/
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Old May 30, 2017, 10:25 AM   #71
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Did not act, means what?

The finally made a decision or kicked the can again?
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Old May 30, 2017, 11:11 AM   #72
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Quote:
The finally made a decision or kicked the can again?

Cert was not granted.

Quote:
May 30 2017 DISTRIBUTED for Conference of June 1, 2017.
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Old May 30, 2017, 11:18 AM   #73
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Postponed again to next conference. Cert was neither granted nor denied.
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Old June 2, 2017, 07:17 AM   #74
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It's June 2, anything happen yesterday ?
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Old June 2, 2017, 08:35 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
So the states claim that you can still carry in the majority of areas in CA is a red herring .
It would be along similar lines that you have freedom of speech so long as no one can hear you
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