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Old August 19, 2015, 01:15 AM   #26
Metal god
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No friends that reload but could if need be find a buyer at the local club . I'm not going to sell them though . Worst case they sit in the basement with other things I've put away . Best case I load them all up .

I do have an update . I went ahead and seated 7 rounds to run through my 1911 manually .

Head stamps were
Fiochi x 1
CCI x 1
GFL x 1
CBC x 1
PPU x 3

When seating and FCD swaging I noticed the PPU cases seated easier and had much less resistance going through the FCD . All COAL were 1.245 +/- .001 .

I then randomly loaded the mag and manually cycled all through the firearm . ALL 3 PPU cases had bullet set back the others did not . Now if I'd put a crimp on all the cases maybe the PPU's do fine but I think this was the convincing factor for me that mixing brass is not a good idea .

I've never mixed head stamps to date when reloading ( correction I do mix LC years on my AR plinking loads ) but they are still all LC brass . So it looks like I'll be going through all the cases and separating them . I'm sure over time I'll find some commonalities from head stamp to head stamp and be able to confidently mix some . How ever for now and my level of experience with hand gun brass I'll just separate the brass .

Thanks guys This thread has been very helpful to me and I hope others now or in the future

Metal
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Old August 19, 2015, 01:58 PM   #27
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1.) I would use Unique. I don't have much experience with the other powders, but Unique works well with cast projectiles. HS-6, if memory serves, may be too slow-burning for good results in .45 ACP. If the manufacturers publish data for a particular powder in a particular cartridge, the odds are that it is SAFE to use, though it may not give you stellar results.

2.) I rarely sort cases. If I was shooting Bull'seye competition, I'd probably sort cases by headstamp, but it might do nothing more than make me feel better. The dimensional specs on the .45 ACP brass tend to be pretty constant, wherever it is made, and it usually takes a match-grade pistol in a machine rest to determine any meaningful difference between one make and another.

If you expect to use this ammunition for things OTHER than high-precision match competition, you don't have to sort. I shoot a fair amount of action pistol, falling plate, and bowling pin competition, and don't go out of my way to sort brass. When I DID scrupulously sort brass, my scores didn't improve. Paying close attention to overall length, charge weight variations, and projectile weight variations will influence accuracy more than case sorting. If, after all of these other factors have been well and truly set, THEN sort cases.

3.) What has been said about taper-crimping is correct. Generally, if enough crimp is used in the .45, it works fine. If MORE than enough crimp is used, it STILL works the same, though velocity fluctuations may flatten out a bit. I HAVE shot .45 ACP with 230gr. LRN with a very heavy crimp, loaded for a revolver, through my 1911A1, and the pistol didn't seem to care. If in doubt, I think you are safer to err on the side of too much rather than not enough crimp.

Years ago, just to see if I could tell a difference, I bought a taper crimp die from Redding(?) to see if crimping my ammo in a separate step, with a die designed to do nothing else, would improve accuracy. At 25 yards from a sandbagged rest, my groups went from 3" to a little less than 2.25" on average (best 9 of 10 5-shot groups). Meaningless for IDPA, falling plates, bowling pins, defense or plinking, but a big deal for precision shooting. I still keep the die handy, for when I have the time to use it.

4.) I've never annealed a pistol or revolver case in 42 years of shooting. But I hasten to add that all my handguns shoot straight-cased cartridges, except one, for which I've yet to reload at all.

Someone replied with a message roughly approximating "Keep it simple, and don't over think it.", which is probably the best advice. The "in-depth" considerations you are examining are hardly useless, but can usually be set aside until keeping it simple does NOT yield desired results. If this occurs, THEN start looking at the more in-depth stuff. It never hurts to investigate more deeply into such matters, especially if there's some serendipitous gain. But for most of your shooting, you're not likely to need to do it.
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Old August 19, 2015, 02:58 PM   #28
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Thanks Kosh ,

Update : I started separating the brass and quickly had 13 different head stamps and that does not include the Win & Fed I already sorted out . Now that's just silly , at this rate I'll not have enough of one brand to load one full box of ammo .

Because of this and the results of some of my other test . I started measuring the case wall thickness . I've not done a lot but the Rem & PPU seem to be close in size . Right around .010 . That seems to confirm why I got the lightness in the seating and crimping with those two cases . Many of the others are around .011 . So now I'll see if I get some consistency with mixed brass that have the same wall thickness . If so I'll go that rout .

Yea Yea KISS I'm in to deep to stop now

Can anyone else confirm the Lee FCD is a taper crimp die ?? Based on what I saw when I look it apart . That's how I'd describe it but don't really know the true definition of taper crimp .
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Old August 19, 2015, 03:18 PM   #29
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For generic go bang, and put holes in paper loads mixed brass will work just fine. I sort out the small primer, and AMERC brass. Small primer goes into the coffee can for later. AMERC goes the return to range scrap barrel late on can.
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Old August 19, 2015, 07:22 PM   #30
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Just got this off the Lee website

Quote:
While the bullet seating die that comes with the die set will apply a crimp to the case, there are some great advantages to using the Factory crimp die. One is that cases are post-sized by the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. This is like the sizing ring in a resizing die, except that it is ground to maximum allowable outside diameter for the case involved. So if there is a buckle in the case from excessive crimp or a bulge from a slightly oversize bullet, the complete cartridge is resized as it is withdrawn from the die; You can be certain that it will chamber, because it has been resized after the bullet was seated and crimped. There is no provision for seating the bullet with the Factory Crimp Die.

The type of crimp on the die depends upon the type of cartridge. With cases that headspace on the case mouth such as the 45ACP, the die essentially reduces the outer diameter of the case mouth into the bullet. On other cases, a roll crimp is applied.


The degree of crimp is adjusted by how far down the knob on the top of the die is turned in. The proper setting for this die is with the adjustment knob turned all the way up, turn the die into the press until it touches the shell plate or shell holder which should be in the raised position. Then, raise an empty case into the die and begin to turn the knob inward until you feel it stop on the top of the case. Another 1/2 turn will apply a good crimp and you can adjust from there to suit your specific need.
Not sure if that means the 45 has a taper crimp but at least I know it's NOT a roll crimp .
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Old August 19, 2015, 08:39 PM   #31
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I'm quite sure it is taper crimp.

-TL
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Old August 19, 2015, 08:57 PM   #32
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If the Lee factory crimp carbide die is a taper crimp die, in the 45acp set I purchased, than I own two taper dies, as I bought a separate taper crimp die. :^)

The Lee factory crimp carbide die that came in my set had a carbide ring on the bottom. The taper die is just that. A taper die. No ring, no sizing. Whether the fcd that came with my set is a taper die or not, I don't know as I have never used it. One thing for sure, if your fcd has the carbide sizing ring, it is sizing the whole case. If the bullets were over sized enough, which is common in lead, causing a wider than normal flare and case mouth, it swages down the bulet if the die is standard size .451. And it is.

If your gun requires a .451 lead bullet, all is good. If not, it could be problems, depending on several variables. I'd do as suggested and load some, shoot them and see just how accurate they are. There are far to many people on cast boolits that have addressed these problems for them to be paper fallacy. You'll just have to see for yourself. But, a properly sized and loaded lead bullet can haul the mail and, do so without leading. Just as accurate as any jacketed round and, a whole lot cheaper to boot. God Bless

Last edited by WVMountaineer; August 19, 2015 at 09:26 PM. Reason: I messed up. Duh!
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Old August 19, 2015, 09:23 PM   #33
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Hmm.. I don't know. The carbide ring is right at the mouth of the die. What is that stem at top for then? Isn't it for adjusting the crimp? So the fcd does both full cartridge resizing and crimping. Since it cannot possibly be roll crimp, it should have narrowed things down.

I own 2 of them too.

-TL
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Old August 19, 2015, 09:25 PM   #34
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You are correct. I misspoke. It isn't a roll crimp.
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Old August 19, 2015, 09:25 PM   #35
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45acp

Just curious what the BHN is for these bullets?
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Old August 19, 2015, 11:10 PM   #36
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Quote:
The Lee factory crimp carbide die that came in my set had a carbide ring on the bottom. The taper die is just that. A taper die. No ring, no sizing.

Quote from Lee

Quote:
there are some great advantages to using the Factory crimp die. One is that cases are post-sized by the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. This is like the sizing ring in a resizing die, except that it is ground to maximum allowable outside diameter for the case involved. So if there is a buckle in the case from excessive crimp or a bulge from a slightly oversize bullet, the complete cartridge is resized as it is withdrawn from the die;
Yes the adjustment knob on the to is to adjust the crimp .

I also e-mailed Lee and asked what crimp the 45acp FCD actually gives and can I use the FCD on lead bullets .
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Old August 19, 2015, 11:50 PM   #37
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If they say not, I have sure been doing it wrong for several years.
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Old August 20, 2015, 07:06 PM   #38
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OK Lee has not replied yet but since we were talking crimp I thought I show you all something and get your take .

I tested 3 different crimp strengths using the FCD and Hornady's 200gr XTP bullets . Which would you think is a good crimp and do any look to light or heavy ?



I had a thread about these bullets and Longshot powder . I was getting confusing results in velocity . First few load charges went up as expected but then when I was getting closer to max ( not real close just close compared to minimum ) I started getting real high velocities . 200fps faster then I should . I'm still not sure what was going on there but I started testing my crimp and if I was getting any bullet set back on an unrelated issue .

I likely had my bullets crimped somewhere in between the first two left to right when testing that load . Well I just did some chambering test loading one in the mag and releasing the slide from the locked open position

ALL 3 off those bullets in pic had bullet set back of at least .005 each time they were chambered . Now that one on the right felt when crimping heavy and looks like a heavy crimp to me and it was set back .005 when I chambered it . What is up with that ?

Do they really need a heavier crimp then the one on the right . I did use the FCD
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Old August 20, 2015, 07:44 PM   #39
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The following are my opinions and should NOT be considered fact or gospel truth, but just how I see it:

--of the three crimps shown, the best one is the LEAST visible one and if it's me, gimme HALF of what is shown. Again, a taper crimp in .45 is NOT supposed to be "locking" the bullet in to place, this round headspaces on the case mouth. If you want to crimp .45cal bullets, get a .45 Colt revolver.

--200fps increase sounds very VERY much like chrono or operator error and 5 one-thousands setback is, for useful purpose... ZERO setback or sloppy dial caliper use.

200 fps difference in a .45 ACP load?!
That's arguably 25% increase in speed. That is... not normal.
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Old August 20, 2015, 08:36 PM   #40
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I agree with Sevens on the chrono results.

I also agree I like the left the best and, would prefer even less. I hate crimping a bullet!!!!!! I don't know if the set back is due to COL or what but, I'd check that first. I'd say you'd seat them a bit deeper, that will stop.

And, all three of those crimps are heavy for lead bullets. When crimping lead .452 bullets, you are just looking to remove the case mouth flare you created with the flare die. That's it. Don't over flare and they won't set back unless they are seated to shallow.

I realize those are plated bullets but, the same applies.

All this is my experience and, has worked well for me. God Bless

Last edited by WVMountaineer; August 20, 2015 at 08:42 PM.
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Old August 20, 2015, 08:56 PM   #41
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Quote:
200 fps difference in a .45 ACP load?!
That's arguably 25% increase in speed. That is... not normal.
I did not mention the most interesting part in that . That 200fps increase happened in a .3gr increase in powder charge .

Quote:
I realize those are plated bullets but, the same applies.
The bullets in the pic are bonded jacketed hollow points . Hornady 200gr XTP

So you guy think maybe I'm flaring the case to much ?

I'm surprised that a .005 set back is no big deal and I do know how to use calipers . How ever I can run the same test using my bullet comparator if you like .

I just got the reply from Lee about what crimp there 45acp FCD gives .


Quote:
It applies a taper crimp
That was there total response .
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Old August 20, 2015, 09:45 PM   #42
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Quote:
The bullets in the pic are bonded jacketed hollow points . Hornady 200gr XTP
Guess I need to pay more attention. I was just locked on to those crimp grooves in the bullets.

I do believe you are either over crimping or seating to shallow or, a combination of the two. If they are plunk testing good in your barrel, than you are over flaring. I don't remember if you stated that or not. So, I'm just trying to cover all the bases. Load up a couple dummy rounds and see. Good luck and God Bless
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Old August 21, 2015, 01:22 AM   #43
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OK I just ran two more crimp test using those 200gr XTP .

First I re-sized some cases then adjusted the flare to just barely give enough to seat the bullet with out shaving copper off . I then seated the bullet to my COAL of 1.240 and gave it a medium crimp . I then did the chambering test and the bullet set back .007 .

Ok no problem I do all that agian with new case and bullet but this time I crimp it as much as my die will crimp VERY VERY heavy crimp . I then do the chambering test . I get bullet set back of .006 . I chamber it 4 more times in a row for a total set back of .037 . Now this is measuring with my .400 comparator .

OK no problem lets see if it's my seating depth so I do all the sizing , flaring etc but seat the bullet to Hornady's per manual 1.210 . I then give the cartridge a medium heavy crimp . I then chamber test the round . Any guesses what happen -------------- yep got a set back of .007 . So I chambered that round another 4 times for a total set back of .031 .

Either I'm doing something very wrong or set back is a normal thing . Now everything I've read about crimping says you crimp to AVOID set back . I don't ever remember reading anything that said you crimp to keep set back to a MINIMUM .
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Old August 21, 2015, 02:27 PM   #44
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Taper crimp on an auto round is not going to do much to stop bullet setback.

If it is bothersome, get the "U" die either direct from Lee or from EGW.
That will give greater tension on the bullet, with a "Coke bottle" constriction visible below the bullet base.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/572...ProductFinding

http://www.egwguns.com/index.php?p=product&id=841

EGW says theirs are made to size farther down the case, but that is not what you need, save $10 and get the plain Lee from Midway.

If you want more security yet, get a cannelure tool and put a band around the case at the base of the bullet like some factory loads.

http://www.ch4d.com/products/equipme...t-tools/CanToo
http://www.corbins.com/hct-1.htm

They talk about using it to cannelure bullets to make a crimp groove but what I use my homemade device for is to cannelure the case at the base of the bullet to form a shelf to keep the bullet from setting back. Kind of expensive but if you are loading your own defense ammo, probably worth it.
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