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Old December 16, 2014, 12:27 PM   #1
CCCLVII
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Need some advise on any thing I could do better.

So yesterday evening I was driving home. It takes about 90min to drive home from where I work. About 30 min of the drive is over some small rural areas.

Any way I am driving in the evening in the rain and my car suddenly pulled to the left really hard right as a guy in a big red Dodge Ram is passing me, it is on the rural road so its rare to even see another car. I come with in inches of side swiping him. Fortunately he is alert and swerves over quickly going off road for a few seconds but is able to get back on the road. The Pickup continues in the same direction out of view.

I pull over to see that my front drivers side tire has blown out and that is what caused the swerve. The tire was is good shape as it was an 80,000 mile tire but only had about 30,000 miles on it.

So I began the process of changing a tire in the rain. With in a few seconds of starting the same red pickup drives by going the other way. The driver rolls down his window and yells some profanity. I could also see there was a passenger.

That is when I called 911. I just told them what happened. They said that the nearest officer was about 20 min away and asked if I wanted them to send him out. I declined figuring that I could have the tire changed faster than that.

I get the tire off and am working on getting the second tire on when there is a blast on a horn and the same truck drives by me again. It swerves and misses me by inches. I call the police back this time request the cops come out. I stay on the phone with the police as I attempt to finish changing my tire when I see the same truck again. I instinctively set down the phone and reach for my CCW. As the truck drives by the guy again attempts to swerve towards me crossing in the the lane going the other direction. I pull my gun and point it at him. The truck suddenly gets back in his own lane and drives on. I did not fire.

I pick up the phone and try to give a licence plate number but I am pretty rattled at this point and can only give a partial plate. I also told the lady what had just happened and admit to pulling the gun. Suddenly the police are there with in a few min rather than the 20 first told me.

The officer was very professional and helps me finish changing my tire and then takes a statement. He says that I did not break any laws and that they would keep an eye out for the pickup.


Any way this incident had me pretty rattled up. Is there any thing I should have done different?
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Old December 16, 2014, 01:00 PM   #2
serf 'rett
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He says that I did not break any laws
Good call by the officer.

Truck driver showed possible intent with malice in language and repeated drive by's, had the ability, using truck as weapon, and opportunity (your disabled car) to cause grave harm.

The only thing I can think of is putting your car between you and the threat, which you may have done.
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Old December 16, 2014, 02:26 PM   #3
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After the first time he drove by, I believe that I would have been paying a little more attention and put the car between us when he drove by for the second and third times.

Could have been bad for you if he'd used his truck against you when you pulled the gun on him. If he'd smashed you flat and you weren't around to dispute it, his story to the cops would be that "I was just innocently minding my own business when some crazy guy with a flat tire attacked me with a gun so I had to run him over to stop the threat".
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Old December 16, 2014, 03:31 PM   #4
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When some one yells at me and drives by I usually just ignore it. It sounds like by the time he started swerving toward the OP that the tire was already off and moving the car may not have been an option.

The first near miss is where my red flags would have gone off. At that point I would have waited on the far side of the car or well off the road till the police came. Sounds like to me the OP got stuck on getting out of there and got focused on fixing the tire. Under stress we all act different and dont always think clearly.

Fortunately no body is hurt!
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Old December 16, 2014, 04:35 PM   #5
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I'm glad that you are safe, that you didn't have to fire, and that the responding officer understood the bad situation you were in. All good.

The only thing I might have done differently is that after the first swerve towards you I might have given up on the tire and concentrated on defense until I had the LEO there. But what you did worked.

The guy in the red pickup was plainly looking for trouble. Even if he was going to be hot-headed enough to come back looking for you, it should have been obvious to him that the incident wasn't aggressive driving or negligence by you once he saw you changing the tire. There is no telling how it would have ended if you hadn't been prepared to defend yourself. This is one of those incidents that doesn't go in the statistics, but was very possibly a successful self defense with no shots being fired.
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Old December 16, 2014, 05:37 PM   #6
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Glad it turned out good for you.

I have to constantly remind myself to be aware and observant, and to especially try to remember details when confronted by bad behavior, like taking a pic of a license plate or committing it to memory.

The problem is that 99% of the time everything seems to go well, making the exception hard to stay ready for.
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Old December 16, 2014, 06:01 PM   #7
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Only other option was to hide till the cops got there the first time it happened but I'd of probably do what you did.
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Old December 18, 2014, 04:31 AM   #8
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And now one sees why a CCW is needed.

If you had NOT brought a weapon who knows, they might have gotten out and assaulted you.

And that cell phone was well worth it to.

Massad Ayoob in his classes points out whom ever calls the cop first is the 'victim', the second one is the 'suspect'.

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Old December 18, 2014, 10:16 AM   #9
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I wouldn't have pulled a gun and pointed it at anyone in that situation.

First, if they are driving by, how is your life in danger. In my opinion, what you did was illegal brandishing of a firearm. Second, since they were driving by, if you shot, you'd likely miss your target or possibly hit a passenger in the Truck. I'm glad the cops didn't make a huge issue of this with you.

What I have done on those rare occasions where I someone is randomly approaching me and seems to be up to no good is: keep my firearm concealed in my pocket, with hand on the grip; then put some distance and/or cover between me and the person approaching. I would have stopped trying to change the tire when the truck guy came back the first time. Calling 911 was a good idea.

Last edited by Skans; December 18, 2014 at 10:21 AM.
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Old December 18, 2014, 11:11 AM   #10
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me? I woud have ack away from the car so him hitting it wouldn't cause me any injury. I would of got as far away from the road as possible and kept my gun ready and waited for police. I definitely would not have pointed my gun at him, I would think it was illegal one and two, can I really shoot the driver of a speeding truck with a possibly innocent passenger next to him? even though it was raining and would be an inconvenience, there has to be somewhere you could have gone to wait for the cops.

if they would have called the police and said some guy was on the side of the road and pointed gun at us, you probably would have gone to jail when the police found you had a gun. even though they would be lying, their story would hold up better, especially having two people.

I am very guilty of road rage, its amazing how it escalates so fast over the silliest things. a guy cut me off in a truck, then we had a little cut-off party with each other. then came the traffic jam and we both got out yelling at each other, luckily before it got physical, a cop was a few cars up and got out and escorted us back to our cars. the bad part, over the course of the next ten minutes, that sane cop had to escort us back to our cars three times until he said next time we are both going to jail. no guns, n fists, just a bunch of empty hollering. but people here in Atlanta get killed almost every day in road rage incidents, I think we are among the top in the country for it.

regardless, I don't see how retreat was impossible and deadly force was justified in your situation.
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Old December 18, 2014, 11:21 AM   #11
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Good move with your Pistol, game changer, a "Bit of fun" on his part, was not too funny now! the chances are he was drunk!

Pity you did not get he plate, DUI would cramp his style.
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Old December 18, 2014, 11:23 AM   #12
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skans, I have to disagree. When the driver started swerving at him (for a 2nd time) with a vehicle, he was being threatened with a deadly weapon. He had no knowledge of whether he was just being harassed, and being intimidated, or whether he might be hit with it. Either way, he was clearly being threatened. The standard in most states is, "Would a reasonable person believe they have reason to fear for their life or bodily injury?". Repeatedly driving by alone would not likely meet that burden, but once a threat was made by swerving at him, I think a jury would be on his side.
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Old December 18, 2014, 12:29 PM   #13
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Any way this incident had me pretty rattled up. Is there any thing I should have done different?
CCC, this would have shaken up most folks, so don't worry about that. I can't think of anything you could have done different. In a perfect world, you would have had a chance to explain to the other driver what happened. Sadly this is not a perfect world.

Don't let some hot headed jerk ruin your holidays.
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Old December 19, 2014, 07:01 AM   #14
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You'd think the fact he was changing the tire would have been explanation enough for the pickup driver when he came back.

The pickup driver was rattled by the near miss too. If it had been me I wouldn't have gone back though. If I did, my anger would have quickly turned to sympathy and I would have helped to change the tire.

The fact this bozo drove past multiple time and intentionally swerved toward the OP was a definite sign of aggression with a deadly weapon (the truck). Also have to keep in mind it was raining so the threatening swerve could have easily turned into an uncontrolled skid. The OP stood a good chance of being mashed between the two vehicles even if the truck driver didn't mean to hit him.
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Old December 19, 2014, 08:28 AM   #15
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skans, I have to disagree. When the driver started swerving at him (for a 2nd time) with a vehicle, he was being threatened with a deadly weapon. He had no knowledge of whether he was just being harassed, and being intimidated, or whether he might be hit with it. Either way, he was clearly being threatened. The standard in most states is,
Well, I have to respectfully disagree with this assessment. The guy changing his tire saw the truck coming again.

First, it would be easy enough for him to back away from the road. He, instead, chose to stand his ground. Unless he lives in a "stand your ground" state, he may not have that right.

Second, a gun is not going to stop a truck.

Third, a gun definitely is not going to stop the driver, who would be on the right hand side of the vehicle. Even if the truck was stopped, how is the shooter going to hit the driver?

Fourth, there was a passenger in the vehicle. If the OP took a shot, and if he could hit any part of the moving vehicle, there is a much higher likelihood that he would end up hitting the passenger than the driver.

Fifth, even if the OP is some kind of super-man trick shooter and could plant a couple of slugs into the chest of the driver, then what? Where is that truck going to go? Who's lives will be endangered then?

Sixth, let's assume the OP made the shot, stopped the driver who coincidentally stopped the vehicle too without flipping it across several lanes, it's probably a bad shoot. Or, at least that's what the passenger is going to testify to - the OP shot an unarmed guy driving a truck.

What really bothers me about all of those posts who applaud what the OP did is that they are really applauding the fact that he brandished his firearm and was able to frighten off the truck driver. Because, if the OP actually took the shot, I doubt any of you would be applauding what he did. So, if the OP really felt his life was in eminent danger he most certainly would have unholstered his gun and fired several shots center mass.........but he didn't, did he. Why? Because he did not feel his life was truly in danger. He was just ****** off, and wanted to send the message "go ahead and make my day, screw with me one more time and I'm going to blow your head clean off". That's the case that will be made to the Jury, anyway.
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Old December 19, 2014, 11:58 AM   #16
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Second, a gun is not going to stop a truck
Looks like it did in this case.

I would not be so quick to assume that running off into the woods in an unfamiliar rural area in the dark would be reasonably expected even in a state that has a duty to retreat.

I would think that the officer that was there and responded to the call would have a better perspective than any of us, so I would tend to accept his judgement without evidence to the contrary.
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Old December 19, 2014, 10:52 PM   #17
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Well, I have to respectfully disagree with this assessment. The guy changing his tire saw the truck coming again.

First, it would be easy enough for him to back away from the road. He, instead, chose to stand his ground. Unless he lives in a "stand your ground" state, he may not have that right.

Second, a gun is not going to stop a truck.

Third, a gun definitely is not going to stop the driver, who would be on the right hand side of the vehicle. Even if the truck was stopped, how is the shooter going to hit the driver?

Fourth, there was a passenger in the vehicle. If the OP took a shot, and if he could hit any part of the moving vehicle, there is a much higher likelihood that he would end up hitting the passenger than the driver.

Fifth, even if the OP is some kind of super-man trick shooter and could plant a couple of slugs into the chest of the driver, then what? Where is that truck going to go? Who's lives will be endangered then?

Sixth, let's assume the OP made the shot, stopped the driver who coincidentally stopped the vehicle too without flipping it across several lanes, it's probably a bad shoot. Or, at least that's what the passenger is going to testify to - the OP shot an unarmed guy driving a truck.

What really bothers me about all of those posts who applaud what the OP did is that they are really applauding the fact that he brandished his firearm and was able to frighten off the truck driver. Because, if the OP actually took the shot, I doubt any of you would be applauding what he did. So, if the OP really felt his life was in eminent danger he most certainly would have unholstered his gun and fired several shots center mass.........but he didn't, did he. Why? Because he did not feel his life was truly in danger. He was just ****** off, and wanted to send the message "go ahead and make my day, screw with me one more time and I'm going to blow your head clean off". That's the case that will be made to the Jury, anyway.
I can see how you would see it like that. But I was afraid for my life. As far as leaving the road the dispatch lady told me to stay with the car. When you are afraid you dont always reason things out well. In hindsight I should have crossed the road and gone to hang out in the woods near by. But the next time your life is threatened let see how rashly you think. I did not fire because the truck changed back into his own lane. I was ready to fire. Believe me there was no "go ahead and make my day, screw with me one more time and I'm going to blow your head clean off"going on in my head. Fortunately the police agreed with me. I did call back yesterday as a follow up and they have not seen or heard from the truck. Obviously the guy did not feel the need to call the police even though he had a pistol drawn on him. That should tell you some thing.

Honestly I dont know why I feel the need to defend my self to this poster but for some reason I do. It all seems kind of strange like I need to explain it to some one.
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Old December 20, 2014, 02:05 PM   #18
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Honestly I dont know why I feel the need to defend my self to this poster but for some reason I do. It all seems kind of strange like I need to explain it to some one.
Are you looking for validation and a slap on the back? Or genuine feedback. You presented the scenario and opened it up for discussion by asking "is there anything I should have done different?"

You said that you were ready to fire. At what? Ask yourself what exactly were you aiming at? What would you have hit, if you made your shot? And, what would you have hit if you missed. I wasn't there. You were. Were you just going to put a hole in the body of his truck somewhere? What would that have done?

See, the problem I have is the fact that you were ready to take a shot at a moving vehicle with some kind of handgun. If this is true, you had no idea what you were going to hit. And, no reasonable chance of stopping the truck or the driver. Now you are a few less bullets and have some very angry people who now know you are armed and possibly looking for more revenge.

Analyzing scenarios like these are good - it permits us to apply critical thinking to determine what we might do in the same situation. But, that requires that we dig into and mull over the facts and the effectiveness of the tactics used - pros and cons. I can honestly say that I would not have pulled my gun on a moving vehicle. To me, it's pointless and fuel to the wrong police officer to arrest you. If I was broken down in the median of the road, I would have crossed over to the far side of the road, with my cell phone, my wallet and my concealed gun. I would have looked for cover. The truck is going to be at a disadvantage once it leaves the road and if the individual(s) meant me harm, they would have parked the vehicle and exited the truck. I would be ready for that, and if the cops still hadn't shown up, I would be in a better position to stop the threat - if it went that far.
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Old December 20, 2014, 07:52 PM   #19
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Truck is a deadly weapon. No different than the guy swinging a baseball bat or pointing a gun at op. It's not standing your ground if someone is threatening you. It's self defense.
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Old December 20, 2014, 09:31 PM   #20
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Skans obviously does not know the laws about median use. It is not legal to cross a median except for emergency personel.

The Op did just fine and drew his weapon when it was needed in this instance when the driver made the move to attempt to run him over.

If the OP had the skill to shoot the driver through the windshield remains to be seen. Fortunately the driver decided that it was not worth the chance of a bullet.
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Old December 20, 2014, 09:46 PM   #21
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Are you looking for validation and a slap on the back? Or genuine feedback. You presented the scenario and opened it up for discussion by asking "is there anything I should have done different?"

You said that you were ready to fire. At what? Ask yourself what exactly were you aiming at? What would you have hit, if you made your shot? And, what would you have hit if you missed. I wasn't there. You were. Were you just going to put a hole in the body of his truck somewhere? What would that have done?

See, the problem I have is the fact that you were ready to take a shot at a moving vehicle with some kind of handgun. If this is true, you had no idea what you were going to hit. And, no reasonable chance of stopping the truck or the driver. Now you are a few less bullets and have some very angry people who now know you are armed and possibly looking for more revenge.

Analyzing scenarios like these are good - it permits us to apply critical thinking to determine what we might do in the same situation. But, that requires that we dig into and mull over the facts and the effectiveness of the tactics used - pros and cons. I can honestly say that I would not have pulled my gun on a moving vehicle. To me, it's pointless and fuel to the wrong police officer to arrest you. If I was broken down in the median of the road, I would have crossed over to the far side of the road, with my cell phone, my wallet and my concealed gun. I would have looked for cover. The truck is going to be at a disadvantage once it leaves the road and if the individual(s) meant me harm, they would have parked the vehicle and exited the truck. I would be ready for that, and if the cops still hadn't shown up, I would be in a better position to stop the threat - if it went that far.
actually I am looking for feed back! That was indeed pretty good feed back. I apricate the fact that you had the guts to say it like you see it on a forum like this. While I like the slaps on the back I am glad that there are people that will give honest feed back. It is about growing and getting better. While I am not sure how much I have improved since then I have practiced much more since the incident. I wish there was an easy way to practice staying calm under a stressful situation. I have ran the situation through my head thousands of times. I dont know if I could of stopped him. But at the time I felt like I had no other option. Hind sight is 20/20 as they say.

thanks again for the honest feed back!

p.s. this is a rural road there is no median. Its just 2 lanes. It is also pretty curvy so we are not talking free way speeds but still a truck can move pretty fast. The Side of the road I was on has a very fast moving river on it. The other side is very steep and tree covered. But I could have moved up it if I had thought of that at the time.

The driver was on my side the last time. He was driving toward me and crossed in to the lane that goes the other direction.
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Last edited by CCCLVII; December 20, 2014 at 10:05 PM. Reason: to help explain the situation.
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Old December 20, 2014, 10:18 PM   #22
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OP I'm glad you made it, the truck drive sounds like a real ****.

I think you did most things right, I would have personally used the car as cover to create some distance after the first pass.
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Old December 20, 2014, 10:30 PM   #23
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Your Ok, everyone else is Ok, you did it right.

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Old December 30, 2014, 10:08 AM   #24
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Sounds like everything worked out, so I'd call it a win.
However, I do agree that retreating across the ditch and getting the tags (or a picture) might have been an even better way to go.

If the truck driver had decided you were going to shoot him and that running you over was his only chance things might have ended sad.
And, like someone else said, of you'd shot him his friend would have almost certainly backed up his side of the story.
"He swerved at us, so we went back to yell at him, but then saw he has a flat so we turned around again to help him with the tie and apologize, but when we pulled over he shot Bubba".
" Bubba" turns into a hardworking guy with lots of family and potential, and you turn into the bad guy.

They follow you across ditch, that's a harder line to sell.


That being said - in the heat of the moment - I'm not sure I would have done anything different than you. I can't say that I have a plan for side of the road altercations.
It's probably something worth thinking about more than I have.

Last edited by dayman; December 30, 2014 at 10:24 AM.
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Old December 30, 2014, 03:57 PM   #25
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Posted by CCCLVII:
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But I was afraid for my life. As far as leaving the road the dispatch lady told me to stay with the car. When you are afraid you dont always reason things out well.
The problem is, if you do not have a basis for a reasonable belief that your life was in immediate danger under those circumstances, and that the use of a firearm had been necessary, the presentation of the firearm was unlawful. And you would need evidence to show others that you had such a basis.

Quote:
Fortunately the police agreed with me.
They are not the decision makers.

Quote:
I did call back yesterday as a follow up and they have not seen or heard from the truck. Obviously the guy did not feel the need to call the police even though he had a pistol drawn on him. That should tell you some thing.
It tells me nothing.

You were very lucky.

Marc MacYoung explains how what many people truly believe constituted lawful acts of self defense can end up depriving them of their clean records, their fortunes, and their personal freedom.

Read this.

It's long, but it is worth the effort.
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