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Old November 30, 2014, 04:06 PM   #1
Koda94
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order of defensive firearm training...

Im curious if there is an official order or outline of defensive firearm training?

Obviously safety would be first but I'm talking about actually firing the weapons, If one wanted to learn the art of defensive firearm use I imagine one would not start out learning how to fire while moving before basic marksmanship so some outline of events like basic marksmanship would come first on up to advanced techniques and everything in between, is there any such outline of what to learn in what order?
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Old November 30, 2014, 04:46 PM   #2
riflemen
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Private lessons would be best, all instructors are going to have different methods for making you efficient..

They are going to first ask you what you want to accomplish...

I would save money and first get efficient at manipulating your firearm, there are tons of videos out there that can give you some decent tips {I am talking about pro's not youtube keyboard cowboys}, take a basic firearm course, that will get the safety and basic shooting skills part out of the way..

Next spend some time and money on getting efficient with your weapon, on your own, at the range, getting faster and more accurate...

I would also look into an unarmed self defense class to take as well, the ymca has these and their are plenty of mma gyms popping up that will be glad to teach you basic hand to hand combat. I took a class taught by 2 navy seal team guys, they are now retired from the navy and own a personal security firm but I thought I knew about hand to hand combat, I boxed, and trained mma for a long time, the class was far from me and expensive BUT WELL WORTH IT, you leave there thinking you don't need a gun, lol. Sadly them guys no longer teach the class but I see other classes taught by x-special ops guys pretty often...

So after you got the basics down and you can shoot well {say 6 months and 7500 rounds, thats under 300 a week}, then I would start looking for a weapon and tactics class, I have a few friends that are in law enforcement and they know I enjoy the classes so I get brought along quite often.

On Thanksgiving I just learned about a private class offered to local officers on how to more effectively enter locked buildings, showing some new door takedown tools and methods, NOW I will never need to know any of that since I don't break down doors to gain entry into places, lol but it will be an awesome class, there is no doubt about that, I am going with my brother in law {trooper and SWAT, his team has won the swat challenge}.

I have taken many classes that I will never NEED to know, I completed a TCCC course last year {taught by a retired seal also}, I will never need to know how to neutralise an active shooter in a hospital while aiding an er doctor, lol but still gave it 100%, the instructor asked me where I worked and when my brother in law said he's not law enforcement, he smiled and said "you did better than most guys on the job, good for you"... He was not local and we went out to dinner after the class since he was only planning on eating room service at his hotel, the info them guys have about security is amazing, I know there are a bunch of guys on this sight and the internet in general that think they are commandos lol, but the truth of the matter is, there is a lot of info out there, and while you can get good with some direction, we will never be as good as the guys that have had it drilled into them for 70 hours a week for 10 years...


ANYWAY, the moral of the story is, take all the classes you can, get to know a few local leos and get inside them classes, thats the best training I ever received, way better than my national guard stuff...

Join a range and a or a club, thats where a lot of my other classes came from, a good club will have plenty of info..

Last edited by riflemen; November 30, 2014 at 04:54 PM.
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Old November 30, 2014, 04:48 PM   #3
raimius
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It can vary a little from instructor to instructor, but generally something like this:

-Safety
-Mindset
-Basic firearms handling
-Basic marksmanship
-Stationary marksmanship/tactics (different positions, holster work, barricades)
-Moving marksmanship/tactics (moving to cover/concealment, shooting while moving, etc)
-Low-light work

Now, including ALL of that at a reasonable level is going to be a longer course, or several courses, as you will not go from "zero" to night-time house clearing in a day or two.
Different classes are going to have different emphasis, as well. Some instructors teach introductory overviews, while others dedicate much more time to detailing specific areas. You need to determine where you are, and what you need to focus on, then find the appropriate class/instructor.
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Old November 30, 2014, 06:36 PM   #4
Koda94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riflemen
I would also look into an unarmed self defense class to take as well
yes I agree. I started taking martial arts this year, unfortunately that cuts into my firearm training budget considerably.

raimius, thank you for that list I like the flow of it. I notice "low-light work" is last on the list, would that also be where other more specific advanced training begins (such as room clearing)? Also, I'm assuming rifle training would follow the same flow?
I agree this isn't something I or anyone would do in just a few days. The reason I'm asking is so I can research on my own in an appropriate order based on where I am at (as your suggesting) and then add those to my personal time of training. For example, I didn't want to 'think' I needed to focus on movement when ignoring basic marksmanship technique, and I wasn't certain if there was a specific order of events.

All, if anyone has another outline feel free to add.
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Old November 30, 2014, 11:52 PM   #5
James K
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Any firearms defense course for non-LEOs is deficient if it does not include the legal aspects of being armed, using/displaying a firearm, justification for the use of lethal force, etc. While LEO's should get that kind of training also, it is often considered secondary to gun handling; the results are predictable and sometimes not good.

Whether some folks like it or not, going armed today is not like the Old West of the movies, where the hero guns down the villain and everyone applauds and the sheriff buys him a drink (movie heroes drink only sarsaparilla, of course.)

Jim
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Old December 1, 2014, 01:11 AM   #6
Koda94
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James K, I agree 100%. Its been a few years but ive taken a basic lawful use of force class aside from a gun safety class. I continue to study the subject as well. For those reasons I didnt include them in this topic but I do agree for anyone following this thread they are more important.
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Old December 1, 2014, 10:50 AM   #7
Glenn E. Meyer
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Here's a suggested order of courses for different purposes from a friend of mine.

http://www.krtraining.com/whatclass.html

Well worth the time.
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Old December 1, 2014, 01:44 PM   #8
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Yep, basic marksmanship must come first. If you can't hit what you're shooting at, nothing else matters. Otherwise, there's no official anything. Classes are in the order the instructor thinks is important. Like James K says, if there's no 'legal' class, run.
The Old West of the movies aren't like the real 'Old West' was like either. Not everybody carried a Colt revolver and a Winchester. Too expensive and most real western towns had 'no guns' ordinances.
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Old December 1, 2014, 07:10 PM   #9
raimius
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Quote:
raimius, thank you for that list I like the flow of it. I notice "low-light work" is last on the list, would that also be where other more specific advanced training begins (such as room clearing)? Also, I'm assuming rifle training would follow the same flow?
Yes. Basically, the more complex and challenging tasks should be later in the program, because they require multiple "building block" skills.

-You can't practice well if you don't practice safely.
-You can't direct your practice well if you don't have goals and a proper mindset for the task. (Prevailing physically, mentally, and legally--mindset and legal considerations)
-You must be able to hit your target-so accuracy is the first measured goal here (safety is pass/fail!)
-Reasonable speed is next, as fights aren't generally turn-based affairs.

Down the line, you get into more context and tactics based blocks. If you will carry, you should know how to deploy your firearm from a holster. Many fights happen at night, so training for low-light conditions is wise. The world is a complex place, so using cover and concealment is wise. Your opponent will likely move (and so should you!), so hitting moving targets and moving yourself are good skills. If you intend to have a rifle and pistol, you need to know how to transition between them. etc. etc. etc....

I once took a class for shooting house instructors. The course taught how to safely train multiple teams to clear a building, starting from different locations. The first drill we did at the range was dry fire and single rounds at 7yds, then malfunction drills. The instructor needed to assess our skill levels at very basic things before he could safely bring us into the shoot house. Then, we did 1 room with 1 person. Then, multiple rooms with one person. Next, add a 2nd person and clear 1 room...move to multiple rooms...all the way up to 3 teams clearing the building simultaneously.
An effective training plan will cement the basics, then apply them to increasingly "advanced" situations.
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Old December 1, 2014, 08:46 PM   #10
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I know many folks will disagree, but safety is NOT always the first consideration except on a range or in the home when there is no threat. Firing a gun in self defense is an inherently unsafe act; you are causing a potentially deadly projectile to fly through the air and hit something. And that should be done only when the need to save your own life outweighs the potential risk to other innocent people. Certainly, safety should always be a consideration, but drawing a firearm to protect your own life or the lives of others cannot be a "no risk" proposition and safety has to be one (but only one) of the considerations involved. If you spend a lot of time considering all the risks and all the safety factors, you might easily be killed; remember, the bad guy does NOT put safety first.

Another fallacy is rigid training that turns the gun carrier into an automaton, firing without conscious thought once some "trigger action" is initiated. You have a brain, you can't allow training to stop you from using it. I recall the poster on another site who bragged that he had trained himself to draw, turn, and fire automatically on hearing a sound behind him. Naturally, he had read all the "guru garbage", with nothing about actually identifying a target or assessing the situation before emptying a gun at something or other. I don't want to be in the same county as a lunatic like that, and I can only hope there are not many.

Jim
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Old December 2, 2014, 01:44 AM   #11
Koda94
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My goal is when I'm ready to take a class I can A) pick the right one for me and B) get the most out of the class by going into it with the correct expectations.

I modified my outline:
1) legal aspect
2) Safety, (Coopers 4 rules)
3) Mindset
4) Application:
4.1) Beginner, (basic handling, marksmanship...)
4.2) Intermediate (moving marksmanship...)
4.3) Advanced (low light...)

from here I can focus on a topic and place specific subject lessons in the proper group, it helps to see where the subjects belong. For example I've been practicing some movement techniques but feel I need to step back and work on some stationary marksmanship. Youtube, Google and I'm looking at some reading material, I'm certain I will find new subject lessons and can add them in the proper category. I have a google doc with this list in outline form and am already adding links to articles etc. under the appropriate topics such as this one on malfunction clearing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJaQvV6q-D8
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Old December 2, 2014, 11:00 PM   #12
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mind set would have to be first as it sets the level of learning and dedication of the student.

basic manipulations and mechanics of firearm handling.

marksmanship.

use of force laws.

tactical reloading.

shooting on the move.

btw, many states require use of force training every year for their police officers to retain their certification.
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