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Old November 27, 2014, 09:53 PM   #1
TimSr
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Defense against a mob

This is something I haven't seen discussed, and in the wake of current events, watching videos of mobs of looters and arsonists entering businesses, I'm wondering tactics or methods are ever taught or suggested about handling yourself in situations of mass lawlessness. Obviously, fleeing is probably the best remedy if at all possible, even if it means losing your property, but I think of the L.A. riots when they were dragging people out of their vehicles who happened to be at the wrong place, at the wrong time, with no opportunity to escape. I also think about those store owners who stay at their businesses while displaying their force and firepower, and never had to use it, and those stores in Ferguson where no one was there. You could get lost in your car, and end up in the wrong part of town surrounded by a street gang, while holding your 5 shooter. You could be a rancher on the border, and have 50 people crossing through your yard at night.

Especially when dealing with riots and mobs, I often get the impression that even many law enforcement professionals aren't ready for those situations.

Anybody ever seen advice from experts on these types of situations?
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Old November 27, 2014, 10:12 PM   #2
JohnKSa
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Avoidance is the only effective strategy. Keep informed of what's going on and where. Then make sure you don't get in the middle of it.

There are some holes so deep that the only way to get out is to make sure you never end up in one to begin with.
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Old November 27, 2014, 10:22 PM   #3
jim8115
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I would be willing to bet that if 10 or 20 peole started attacking you, and you shot one... the rest will flee.Those types like to pick on defensless or what they percieve as weak. Once they discover this isnt the case, they will retreat.
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Old November 27, 2014, 10:22 PM   #4
Jim567
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Yea - that's got to be one of the most
Difficult and scary scenarios.
So much can go wrong and so much is unpredictable.
All I can say is if you are in a car - don't stop if you can help it.
Ugh.
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Old November 27, 2014, 10:26 PM   #5
johnelmore
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In the case of the LA Riots the store owners who defended their property did so in mass with rifles, shotguns and pistols. Think platoon size. From the youtube videos you can see tens of them with AR15s and UZIs on the roof and the streets. No one came near their stores.

To defend the store by yourself, no way, but if everyone bands together with rifles...a bit different.

The conventional wisdom is to walk away, get away. Thats good responsible advice, but if it were my store I would get as many able bodied men with rifles to defend it.
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Old November 27, 2014, 10:31 PM   #6
JohnKSa
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Quote:
I would be willing to bet that if 10 or 20 peole started attacking you, and you shot one... the rest will flee.
Assuming:

1. None of the mob members have a firearm.
2. You are in a situation that allows you to effectively deploy your firearm before being overwhelmed.
3. The mob members are all relatively rational--i.e. not extremely angry/determined or under the influence of any behavior altering substances.

I'm not saying that the strategy would never work or that you shouldn't use it if you are surrounded and you feel there's no other option.

I'm just saying that going up against a score of people as an individual isn't something a rational person should ever attempt. Whatever you have to do to stay out of the situation in the first place is well worth the cost and is clearly the best strategy.
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Old November 27, 2014, 10:35 PM   #7
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Ranchers on the border DO NOT in general stop groups coming across the border. If they try they likely will never do it again.

It is a war zone, but very few of the incidents make the news. If they do, the reporters may put their own life in peril.

On a more general note, as John noted, situational awareness and don't be there are the very best advice.
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Old November 28, 2014, 10:05 PM   #8
Blue Duck
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Well, of course the best strategy is to not get in a situation like that in the first place. Same as any rational CCW person would choose to be somewhere else, instead of getting into a scrape be it robbery, rape, etc.

But, if it happens, then it's too late to not be there. I would say if you are not targeted then remain calm and try to clear the area if at all possible. But if you are targeted then IMHO, if you can't run or hide, then you have little choice but to fight, and let's hope you bought something to fight with.

If you are in a vehicle, remember you have a 3000 pound weapon in your hands, but if you are already in a traffic jam, you might not be able to go anywhere, but if on a more open roadway, or at the head of the pack, you have a couple of choices, either try to drive thru and or over any body in front of you, or do a U-turn if possible, and get the heck out of there. This where a pickup or 4 wheel drive vehicle is preferred to a small car.

I wouldn't start shooting unless it was a last resort to avoid being attacked, and if it comes to that, then keep your cool, shoot straight and be ready to get mad dog mean if that's what it takes, maybe you will get lucky and survive, to go to court.
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Old November 28, 2014, 10:09 PM   #9
psalm7
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InWar zones there are times when Snipers have stopped well armed very violent mobs in their tracks . Target aqusistion pick out the ones that seem like the leaders , when the others see their leaders drop to the ground doing the chicken dance and a pink mist hangs in the air where their head was seems to take the fight out of the thugs .
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Old November 28, 2014, 10:26 PM   #10
riflemen
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I agree with the others, drop 1 and then aim for the next one still facing you, I would bet most will be pointed the other way once they realized what was at risk, I am sure this will depend on how many and how close to you they are, if we are talking 30 people 11 feet away, then spray and pray, maybe even shoot backwards while running, because even 30 unarmed adult men can inflict some serious injuries in a short amount of time, unless you had a full auto AR10 with a 50 round drum, someone is getting their hands on you with them numbers...

A couple notes worth thinking about, I wouldn't waste rounds with overkill, I would pop a single chest shot at the closest easiest to target assailant, this will do a couple things, the ones behind him will witness the shot and you will have neutralised the nearest threat. I would pull my second mag and take the first shot single handed then bring the mag hand up to stabilise the gun, I have practiced this and I am faster pulling the second mag while taking my first shot {the easiest}, than taking my 7 shots then pulling the second mag while I am dropping the other. This is my method when doing speed drills with multiple plates, I can bang 16 plates with my 1911 and 2 mags in a very short amount of time, but now that I think about it, it probably wouldn't work for a lot of attackers because I am walking towards the targets as shooting, and they aren't moving, hitting moving targets while trying to expand the distance between us would be tough..

I honestly never trained for crowd attacks, I think the best bet would be to vaporize one and see whats still coming at you... All though the absolute best bet would be to not be around a situation like that, or start praccticing your double fisted FN 5.7 target shooting, lol...
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Old November 28, 2014, 10:34 PM   #11
JohnKSa
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Closed.

This has basically turned into a Zombie thread by another name.

Picking "targets" by who is closest or who seems to be the leader, etc. is legally and morally problematic. This is a huge part of the problem of defense against a mob; you can't just start shooting people based on what you think is the best strategy to exit. Even if that might really be the best strategy, each and every person shot (or even just shot at) will have to be justified legally.

You can't just say: "I figured if I shot that guy the rest would run." and assume that's going to be seen as legal justification. It is still required that the particular person shot must be an imminent and deadly threat and that the use of deadly force against him was necessary and justified under the deadly force statutes.

Stay away from mobs. Once you're in one, you are going to have a hard time making it out in one piece if things turn against you.

If you start shooting people to fight your way to safety, you might survive, but it's going to be very legally complicated to stay out of jail if multiple persons are shot. Each and every shot fired is potentially a jail sentence and will have to be justified individually.

And all that assumes that there's no one in the who is mob armed. If there is, the idea that you're going to be able to just start popping people with impunity is pure fiction.

If you end up surrounded by a mob, you'll have to do what you can to survive. But if you have any sense of self-preservation at all, and any ability to think logically, you will do WHATEVER it takes to avoid the situation in the first place. Unlike many common crimes of violence which can be nearly unavoidable since criminals can move around at will, mobs are not at all common and are easily avoided.

Avoid them.
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