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Old November 25, 2014, 04:48 PM   #1
ezmiraldo
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Who here agrees with Rob Pincus take on practicing malfunction clearings?

In couple of videos I've seen of him, he suggests that today's guns are so reliable that skills required to clear malfunctions are "advanced skills" and do not need to be emphasized or practiced regularly. He goes on to say that if one's gun malfunctions, one should simply change the gun.

Am I the only person who thinks this is wrong? I practice malfunction drills religiously, even though my sig p226 is working like a swiss watch (knock on wood). It is a mechanical device, and malfunctions are possible, especially when you are pumped full of adrenaline and operating the firearm somewhat differently than normal. Or when we fall and dirt gets inside the action... etc. etc.

Thoughts?
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Old November 25, 2014, 05:03 PM   #2
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pincus is one of those individuals whom if one could purchase for what he is worth and sell him for what he thinks he is worth, a sizable profit would be made.
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Old November 25, 2014, 05:24 PM   #3
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Shoot your brass until it starts to fail, and you'll get fairly regular malfunction practice, whether you want it or not.

Best part is, you never know when its going to happen.
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Old November 25, 2014, 05:34 PM   #4
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Rob Pincus knows that saying something controversial gets him more attention….
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Old November 25, 2014, 05:50 PM   #5
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Maybe Rob hasn't taught a class with normal people and normal people's guns in a while?
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Old November 25, 2014, 05:54 PM   #6
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In a high stress situation, I'm more concerned about shooter error than equipment malfunction.

In IDPA, I suspect I've caused more problems than the equipment. Things like limp wristing, failure to fully seat a magazine, thumb riding slide, dropping the slide release too soon - all can cause malfunctions and this isn't even close to a complete list. It may come as a surprise, but sometimes there's no bang when the hammer falls and the primer is struck. Even happens with factory ammo; in fact, I've had more failures with factory than I've had with my reloads.

When you hear that really loud "click" instead of BANG, when the slide fails to close, fails to extract, locks open with a stove pipe or the dreaded double feed, then it's good to have practiced clearing malfunctions.

There are times I will shoot a match with a pistol which has experienced malfunctions in the past, just so I can hone my clearing drills if needed.
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Old November 25, 2014, 06:38 PM   #7
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Shoot your brass until it starts to fail, and you'll get fairly regular malfunction practice, whether you want it or not.
Yep.
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Old November 25, 2014, 06:44 PM   #8
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I don't have the resources he does for high dollar guns and ammo. My guns are reliable, but $14 .380 ammo will fail more often. Just saying.

Defense ammo, I run 50 to approve. Range ammo, make it cheap so it fails and I learn to deal.
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Old November 25, 2014, 06:58 PM   #9
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Bloopers and squibs are a sign that the handloader has not done their job properly, but I've learned something valuable from the three I've had so far. I'm still waiting for a case head separation (preferably only on extraction - I'm not keen on the whole gas-venting-in-my-face thing), just so I can practise with my broken shell extractor before I take my big game rifle out hunting.

I don't care how experienced Mr Pincus is or how good his equipment is - anyone who doesn't feel the need to have a firm grasp on how to recognise, classify and deal with a failure of the bullet/shot charge to exit the muzzle when the pin hits the primer is IMHO speaking through some orifice other than their mouth.

It's all very well to talk about tap-rack-bang or whatever, but that only applies when the danger to you is so great and so immediate that it overrules the risk of firing into an obstructed barrel.
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Old November 25, 2014, 07:00 PM   #10
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Drills? what are you guys training for? The only drill I do is in formation.
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Old November 25, 2014, 07:03 PM   #11
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It's all very well to talk about tap-rack-bang or whatever, but that only applies when the danger to you is so great and so immediate that it overrules the risk of firing into an obstructed barrel.
In practice, you still do them, I just "say" bang at the end, and then check the gun, as I do with most malfunctions.

So far, I would have been OK, but I agree, why risk it.
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Old November 25, 2014, 07:15 PM   #12
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Perhaps someone might be good enough to tell us what Rob said and in what context.

In the course I took with him, clearing malfunctions and reloading by replacing magazines were a big part of the drill(s).

And people had to clear malfunctions frequently during the two day course.

In one of his videos in which he showed the difference between "good shooting" and defense, his Glock provided an unscripted malfunction, and he cleared it instantly.

"Today's guns are so reliable"? He has the opportunity to see a lot of them often, and he recommends only a few.

I carry one of them.

Last edited by OldMarksman; November 28, 2014 at 12:17 PM. Reason: typo
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Old November 25, 2014, 10:07 PM   #13
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I got my older sister and her husband into shooting. They're new to this, and therefore have gotten themselves into more "malfunctions" than anybody here will want to admit, and with brand new, reliable firearms. I don't care what anyone says, clearing a misfire is day one stuff. The Navy thought so too when I went through boot camp in '03.

To see the reaction of a new shooter when they pull the trigger and it DOESN'T go bang can be interesting to say the least.

It's all about training.
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Old November 25, 2014, 11:13 PM   #14
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Who here agrees with Rob Pincus idea that practicing malfunction drills is not needed
With good ammo and such guns as Glocks or Sigs I'd maybe practice malfunction drills once a year.

They are very reliable and when dirty far more reliable than revolvers (and I am a revolver fan.)

But no matter what you pack, do practice shooting strait with the first few shots. That matters more than anything.

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Old November 25, 2014, 11:22 PM   #15
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"In couple of videos I've seen of him, he suggests that today's guns are so reliable that skills required to clear malfunctions are "advanced skills" and do not need to be emphasized or practiced regularly."
I've trained with a number of CFS instructors (a couple of them are friends), and have discussed quite a few things with Rob himself in person and over FaceBook or email.

I train with a bunch of different instructors and companies. I don't agree with everything in CFS (and I've had some serious-but-friendly discussions regarding what I think is out of whack in their program) but it appears that this is a misrepresentation of what Rob and the CFS instructors actually teach. There is quite a bit of material in the CFS program devoted to efficiently clearing malfunctions, and even one-handed techniques for malfunction clearances.

That's just a simple fact as anyone genuinely familiar with the program can attest.

Here's a few links in that regard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Kcg1k-UKo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi4PlDXzzxM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuWtAAJG8X4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHhCUI7CzFc

It seems far more likely that you've mistaken what you've seen/heard, or don't understand it in the correct context. I guess a lot hinges on exactly what any one person considers "emphasized or practiced regularly".

Then again, I could be wrong ... please post up links to the videos you mention so we can all come to our own conclusions.
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Old November 25, 2014, 11:47 PM   #16
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Quote:
I practice malfunction drills religiously
Religiously????? Sorry to hear you have that many problems with your firearms. The only time I get to PRACTICE that maneuver is during an IDPA stage where I might actually have a malfunction. (not at all often) Drop the mag, rack the slide, feed a new mag in and back to action.

Any other time (at the range), I want to know WHY there was a malfunction and take the time to clear the gun and find out why, not what I would call a malfunction DRILL.

Clearing a gun with a perfectly good round in the chamber is not the same as when a malfunction actually happens. Should you know how to do it, YES. Should you have to practice it, NO.

Being prepared is one thing, being religious about it is just over kill. You would be better prepared if you spent the time to avoid malfunctions and checked your extractor, checked your ammo and checked your mags. Too many people holster their CCW and walk out the door without insuring it is working properly to start with.

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Old November 26, 2014, 01:01 AM   #17
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Automobiles and airplanes are quite reliable these days, but I'd insist that every driver knew how to react when a tire blows on the highway or an engine goes out mid-air. You may not need to include it as a regular, weekly part of training, but you should know what to do in the rare event of an emergency.
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Old November 26, 2014, 02:24 AM   #18
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Let's see, the police I grew up with taught and practiced malfunction drills (including drawing their back ups for those who carried revolvers), the military taught me malfunction drills on various weapons platforms, the police academy taught me malfunction drills, the feds taught and insisted on malfunction drills and I have used those while bullets were flying. You can do what you want, but we practice them because you will do what you have trained to do when shtf.

The only semi auto pistol I have owned that has a decent round count (over 2000) that hasn't had a malfunction is my hi-point.....go figure.

I reload as well and I will purposely put together rounds with primers and powder, don't take the flare out, etc to use for training of family and friends. Tap rack bang should be drilled in enough to make it automatic. Can't tell you number of "professionals " I have seen who fumble malfunctions.
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Old November 26, 2014, 04:08 AM   #19
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I kind of agree. I imagine most of us here shoot enough that were practicing "advanced" skills on a regular basis.
However, I don't think that training for "tap rack assess" or the like is a requirement for basic proficiency.
Even using cheap tula and the like I get maybe 1-2 unintentional malfunctions a year - out of, say, 3-4000 rounds.
The odds of having a malfunction with defensive ammo at the same time you're defending yourself is probably lower than being struck by lightning. If you're off in the sandbox, or otherwise engaged in active combat it might be a different story, but for general defense it's definitely a secondary skill.
That's not to say it's not worth training for - if you're doing a lot of training - but for newer shooters it's probably unnecessary. There are other, more useful skills to focus on at the beginning.

That being said, I do find them a valuable part of my own training. If nothing else, they serve to break up the monotony.
The best way I've found to create malfunctions is to load an empty shell into the mag. Sometimes it jams the whole gun up, sometimes it stovepipes, sometime it just fails to fire - you never know what's going to go wrong.
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Old November 26, 2014, 09:03 AM   #20
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Rob Pincus says that if one's gun malfunctions, one should simply change the gun.

I personally agree with that. I wont carry a gun that I cant depend on to go "bang" when I pull the trigger.

I wont carry a gun that, back in my mind, I have to wonder if I have to do an immediate action.

I want to be able to act without thinking, to do that requires hours upon hours of practice and that practice with a gun that works.

One could learn a lot from Pincus' videos. You may not agree with everything he says, but, for the most part he is right on.
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Old November 26, 2014, 09:25 AM   #21
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Hey guys! Thanks for your input. I do not mean this post as a personal attack on Rob Pincus -- he seems to know what he is talking about. I enjoy and fully agree with most of his thoughts, and learn valuable info from his videos. That's why when I heard him say that practicing malfunction clearances should be considered an advanced skill and not emphasized in routine training, I was taken aback (this goes against pretty much everything I've heard/learned in the past).

I agree with this part of his statement: If one's ssw/hd/sd gun malfunctions frequently, this gun gotta go (that's why I moved from glocks to sigs two years ago). Malfunctions can be ammo related, user-error related, etc., but they can also be related to how user's hand interfaces with the firearm. Sometimes anatomy of one's palm is incompatible with certain firearms, which induces malfunctions, and when that's the case, moving to a different firearm is wise. However, I disagree with the part about not regularly practicing malfunction clearance drills.

As for the context of this remark -- if memory serves me, it was an off-the-cuff remark, almost made in passing when discussing some other issue. I was researching Pincus training program, and stumbled on that video by accident (it was either video on his website or on youtube). Sorry, I do not have a link to it. I've tried to look up the video to post a link here, but I don't remember what the video was called (and there are a ton of videos with Pincus out there...). As I said, it was a comment made in passing -- and if people who trained with Rob say he emphasizes malfunction drills in his classes, I take their word for it. Again, I'm not trying to badmouth Rob Pincus, just discuss the idea that clearing malfunctions isn't as important as conventionally thought due to high quality of today's firearms.
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Old November 26, 2014, 09:30 AM   #22
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@kraigwy. ..how many rounds do you consider sufficient to determine a gun is reliable?


All: I don't think you need to spend a lot of practice time on malfunction dri)s, but it should be a regular part of your training. And the more you shoot, the more practice you will get both on shooting and malfunctions.
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Old November 26, 2014, 09:40 AM   #23
AK103K
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I want to know where you find these guns that "never" malfunction.
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Old November 26, 2014, 10:59 AM   #24
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@kraigwy. ..how many rounds do you consider sufficient to determine a gun is reliable?
All of them.

It takes one round to determine a gun is not reliable.

Quote:
I want to know where you find these guns that "never" malfunction
I have tens of thousands of round through my Model 28 I was issued in 1974, carried for 20 years in LE and still shoot it now after my dept. gave it to me when I retired.

I have thousands of round through my M642 I carry 24/7.

Neither have failed me.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is something to consider: A huge majority of civilian SD shootings occur between 5-6 feet. At that distance, how much time do you get for immediate action drills.

Something else I consider a malfunction, though not the guns fault. That being failure or delay in getting the safety off when you get ready to shoot.

I see it all the time in my SD classes, and I see it all the time in competition.
I've done it my self in competition switching from a 1911 (safety is pushed down) and my 92fs where the safety pushes up.

When that, ore any other malfunction occurs, it not only effects, not only the current shot, but future shots because you're thinking of the lost time, and your score, not thinking about the next shot.

I was told, many years ago when I started shooting high power matches. A high power match IS NOT an 80 shot match, its 80 - 1 shot matches. Meaning the only shot that counts is the one you are taking now, you cant do that if you're worrying about the last shot, is the gun going to malfunction, are you going to forget the safety.

I do that, I shouldn't, but I do, when shooting a match I find my self thinking, "safety up, safety up" in stead of concentrating on fundamentals.

I shoot ICORE and other matches with a Model 64, I don't worry about malfunctions or safety's. And for some odd reason I shoot it better then my semis.

I'm not asking anyone to take my word for this, just take in a few action pistol matches and watch the shooters.
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Old November 26, 2014, 11:37 AM   #25
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A few observations in no particular order:

"Malfunction" can mean a lot of things.

It could mean you were shooting crap ammo. If you want to get a lot of malfunction practice, buy reloads from "that local guy with really great prices".

Crap ammo is not a "gun malfunction", but rather an ammo problem. If you are getting regular malfs with brand-name factory ammo, it's a gun problem.

If you have a gun which is picky about which ammo it "likes", it's a gun problem. That's not a carry gun, IMHO.

I have guns with thousands of rounds through them (under hard-training, uncleaned for days conditions, rain, snow, dirt, blood) and zero gun-problem malfunctions. One of these is my Glock 19, which is one of my carry guns for that reason.

I have guns which experience gun-related malfunctions so rarely, that it amounts to "virtually never". I have a police-trade-in Glock 22 for instance, which has been converted to 9mm ... a total of ONE malfunction (stovepipe) in several years, and it was in the hands of a newbie shooter at the time ... so who knows what happened there?

I have several guns which have only 500 or so rounds through them. That's not enough to call them "reliable" IMHO. "Reliable" (for me) means that I have fired no less than 1k practice/FMJ rounds without a gun-related malfunction ... and about 100 rounds of carry/duty ammo.

Glock, XD, M&P, and Ruger SR seem to just plain work. There are other good guns out there, I just don't have as much experience with them.

Every time there are at least two 1911s on the line for a training class, one will have a problem before the class is done. I don't necessarily think that means 1911s are crap, it just means they require a little more TLC.

A well-maintained 1911 shoots better than anything else. It's a perfectly viable carry choice if you give it the love it needs.

With a decent gun, malfunctions are actually quite rare. That's little consolation if "rare" mean that the one time it happens is when you desperately need it to work.

As such, malfunction clearances should be trained to be simple, efficient, relatively fast and something close to reactive-second-nature. Practice as much as you need to be reasonably proficient, but don't waste a lot of time trying to get that extra 1/10th of a second faster. You'll be better off using that practice time to shoot better.

Given the realities of a citizen-self-defense ... you might get a chance to clear a failure-to-fire or a stovepipe. If you get a type-3/double-feed ... your first thought should be running away or doing something besides fixing the gun. If you can clear one of these while running like hell ... do so. If not, wait til you have some combination of distance, concealment, and cover
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