The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 24, 2014, 02:36 PM   #1
SIMP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 2, 2005
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 396
Workplace Disturbance

So, I'm at my desk today and I hear an argument outside the office building. Turns out it was the owner and a shop employee. Apparently, there was an altercation that escalated to a physical level. Things got real heated and I helped break up the scuffle. Luckily, the employee left before any further damage was done.

I have no clue what this employee is capable of but it made me start thinking about certain scenarios that could unfold up here.

1) Maybe he had a gun in his car he was going to grab before he left.

2) Maybe he'll come back later with a weapon after things have calmed down.

3) Anything else.....

Made me real glad that I can carry up here at the office. I have been running through different drills of what I would do if I heard shots or folks screaming. Anyway, I’m still pretty shaken up about it. Thanks for listening.
SIMP is offline  
Old October 24, 2014, 02:41 PM   #2
mete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,575
Management has a responsibility to properly deal with a problem employee. Deal with it when it starts not when it has grown to a crisis !!
__________________
And Watson , bring your revolver !
mete is offline  
Old October 24, 2014, 03:18 PM   #3
jtmckinney
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 490
I resigned from an employer a few months ago, not for this specific reason but the atmosphere created by the owner and HR manager (she was also the owners wife) was definately a big part of my decision.

A couple co-workers and myself that went to lunch together and were on good terms talked more than once about the increased danger of a disgrunteled or fired employee snapping and doing what-ever. I didn't have my CHL at that time so carrying was not a legal option so I didn't but I had several excape plans in case something went down. I was always glad my office was at the opposite end of the building with main entrance in the middle.
__________________
“Government does few things well but it does them at great expense” Cal Thomas “When Government Can’t Be Trusted” 6/11/2013
When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; When I am stronger than you, I take away your freedoms because that is according to my principles. Frank Herbert "Children of Dune"
jtmckinney is offline  
Old October 24, 2014, 03:56 PM   #4
wogpotter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2004
Posts: 4,811
The problem is to be vigilant without going all the way to paranoia. Where the dividing line is can be fuzzy at times.

We let go a Department Manager & the Production Manager the same day. The Department Manager was a known griper with a grudge & the Production Manager was very dense & felt he'd been mis-treated (he hadn't).

When they both started showing up just sitting in the road right outside the property line my "spidey sense" was definitely tingling.

We called the local PD, (over the objections of the Corporation who wanted to low play the whole thing) They checked them out & increased drive by's but they both just sat there for several days & there was nothing anyone could do as they weren't breaking a single law.

It turned out they just couldn't figure out where else to go so they came to work & sat there, but it produced some serious tensions among the employees who'd heard too many "going postal" tales to be comfortable with the situation.
__________________
Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”?

Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”
wogpotter is offline  
Old October 25, 2014, 12:21 AM   #5
mete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,575
One family member had complained with others to upper management about the strange behaviour of their supervisor . The comments were ignored . The end came when the supervisor's wife wanted a divorce. To spite her , he killed his two kids and himself !!! That's what can happen when danger is ignored !
__________________
And Watson , bring your revolver !
mete is offline  
Old October 25, 2014, 06:52 AM   #6
psalm7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2014
Location: Middle TN
Posts: 543
I am a Manager that has to deal with stuff like that almost every week at a large very busy place some times its internal sometime external threats anything from a loon that should be locked up to a potintial terrorist threat often its a domestic or personal sitation that someone brings with them . Last one was just Yesterday a customer stopped me and said some one is in the parking checking cars for unlocked doors . I found the guy he saw me and trying to bluff or intemadate me he walks straight towards me looked like he spent plenty of time in prison lifting weights so I looked him in the eye and said Whats up ? . He said hey turned and walked to the end of the parking lot got in a car and left . We have a good relationship with the local City PD and help each other alot we helped them on missing persons and even most wanted that may have left a papper trail . And lots of local stuff . We call them if we have reason to think there is going to be trouble . Thats the thing there when the decision making that could be life or death . Dealing with the public !
psalm7 is offline  
Old October 25, 2014, 02:46 PM   #7
hoss1969
Member
 
Join Date: October 10, 2014
Posts: 79
why you should always do mind drills!

Some people call it being paranoid or gun ho but you always need to do "WHAT IF" drills in your head!

Your in the C-store back at the coolers and your hear the door chime, you smartly look up to the mirrors over the cooler , its 100° out and two people walk with hoodies up. You should be thinking if X happens im doing this or not doing that.

Your at the store walking to your car and see a guy sitting in his car looking at you. Hes just sitting there till you almost get to your car then he gets out and starts towards you. Was he just listening to the end of a song on the raido and now heading to the doors you came out? Or is it something else? If you had been doing "what if " mind drills you would already be prepared to respond instead of now rushing to judgment.

The best thing about "What if" drills is almost nobody will even know your doing them. The girlfriend can usually tell when I've picked up something and figured out what I'm going to do if it does happen. Im sure she doesn't see me work it out, but its when I move to put myself between her at what i've alerted to.
hoss1969 is offline  
Old October 28, 2014, 01:32 AM   #8
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 456
Always call the police and get a report documenting the activity. Some people are afraid of the police or they dont want anyone to get into trouble but a physical fight should be documented and handled by the police.

As for workplace self defense I would always carry a bottle of Fox pepper spray if not something greater. I have no doubt my bottle of Fox will resolve any fight or at least provide an unpleasant distraction.

If irrate ex employees were sitting outside a place or business which I owned than I would make it a point to open carry around the property. Be careful and know the law before you open carry around the property. Nothing wrong where I am with open carrying on your own property.

Last edited by johnelmore; October 28, 2014 at 01:39 AM.
johnelmore is offline  
Old October 28, 2014, 05:32 PM   #9
jtmckinney
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 490
johnelmore, With all respect I cannot agree with the advice you give under the circumstances you described. Being armed when and where legal and ready and able to defend yourself along with awareness of the situation, yes. But openly carrying thinking that is going to help in any way, I don't think so. I also think this sets you up for a hard time in court if you do have to use the firearm.

From a tactical stand point maybe you could access your firearm quicker and carry a more powerful firearm but if I actually thought the level of threat was that high I would not be walking around in the open anyway.
__________________
“Government does few things well but it does them at great expense” Cal Thomas “When Government Can’t Be Trusted” 6/11/2013
When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; When I am stronger than you, I take away your freedoms because that is according to my principles. Frank Herbert "Children of Dune"
jtmckinney is offline  
Old October 28, 2014, 06:57 PM   #10
wogpotter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2004
Posts: 4,811
Sometime its just a case of "they aren't evile, just stupid"!
I was working on the roof of our (rural) building when an arrow hit the rubber roof not 18" away from me. I called the Police.

It turned out some "genius" was (I kid you not) hunting flying turkeys on the (private) property with a bow & arrows because he'd "bought a damned hunting license: & so was "Going to use it as he'd paid for it"!
The "responding officer" differed in her opinion.
__________________
Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”?

Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”
wogpotter is offline  
Old October 28, 2014, 08:13 PM   #11
zach_
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2014
Location: DFW north
Posts: 377
Bad situations occur at all workplaces. You never know who you are dealing with at any time. Some people are not willing to take a well deserved butt whoopin without going postal. These people should not own guns. Thank God those people are few and far between. I fully support all firearms restrictions at the workplace. These days employers will protect themselves from lawsuits with policies signed off on at time of hire. People will still slip through the cracks. I am sure lots of you will think I am a flaming liberal at the point. Oh well.
__________________
Z
zach_ is offline  
Old October 28, 2014, 08:19 PM   #12
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Back in a Non-Free State
Posts: 2,744
Stupid people are everywhere, including where we have to work to put food on the table. Of course, it depends on where you work, but a person's workplace is usually one of the safer locales in the course of a day. It's good to carry, but odds are you won't have to use it at work, especially if you're in an office environment.
__________________
AI + Quantum Computing = Human Extinction Event
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old October 29, 2014, 05:02 AM   #13
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 456
Whats the difference between hiring an armed security guard or you or your employees open carrying on the property? Is the proper way to harden a target by hiring uniformed armed guards? I believe we have rights on our own property and by displaying a firearm it will harden a target.

That said anyone can go down to the courthouse and file a lawsuit for anything. For example, John Travolta got sued for some form of sexual touching and it was completely bogus. I once got sued when a bus hit my car while I was stopped. This was bogus. I once read about this lady suing McDonalds for the coffee being too hot. So, yes, you will be sued for something. The police will try to charge you with something. That will happen and you should get used to that.

Ive had firearms pointed at me in a malicious manner a few times in my life and just recently when I got robbed. My thoughts were that I wish I had a pistol or that someone by me had one. However, the thoughts of a lawsuit or being criminally charged did not go through my mind. Yes, you will be sued and charged, but you will be alive.

The legal risk is important to weigh against your life and death. I would rather defend myself in the courts than to be dead or see my coworkers dead.

Last edited by johnelmore; October 29, 2014 at 05:23 AM.
johnelmore is offline  
Old October 29, 2014, 10:15 AM   #14
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnelmore
Whats the difference between hiring an armed security guard or you or your employees open carrying on the property?...
For one thing, if you hire a reputable company to supply the guards you have that company, and its insurance, to help shield your company from liability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnelmore
...anyone can go down to the courthouse and file a lawsuit for anything.... I once read about this lady suing McDonalds for the coffee being too hot....
And she won a substantial judgment. Some years ago, one of our local, and best, sourdough French bread bakeries was forced out of business by a judgment against it arising from the negligence of one of its drivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnelmore
...The legal risk is important to weigh against your life and death...
But there are also ways a prudent business may protect against the legal risk without impairing personal safety.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old October 29, 2014, 12:47 PM   #15
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 456
If there was a credible threat to your life wouldnt you carry your firearm in the most deployable way within the limits of the law? Lets say you are the owner of a business and there was a messy firing or layoff. The former employees seemed very angry, made threats and are lingering outside. You informed the police, but they cant do anything.

An armed security guard hanging in the lobby is a luxury that not all businesses can afford. That would be ideal. However, what if they get past the armed security guard? What if you cant afford armed security?

I think if faced with a credible threat most here would rethink their security posture and carry a pistol in a highly deployable manner which might mean wearing it on the belt. There are ways to limit legal risk and thats important, but me personally...Im wearing mine on my belt at my residence or my business if there was a credible threat.

The police chief here sent us an email about multiple burglaries which took place these last few weeks even sending us a photo of two masked bandits. So right now at home my small revolver is in a holster on my belt. When I leave it will move to a more concealed position. If I shoot the bandits I will get sued. I acknowledge that, but what is the alternative?

Last edited by johnelmore; October 29, 2014 at 12:53 PM.
johnelmore is offline  
Old October 29, 2014, 02:21 PM   #16
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,066
Why do you say repeatedly that you will be sued and charged? That's not a physical law of nature.

You can mitigate that risk by knowing what you are doing and taking precautions.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old October 30, 2014, 02:58 AM   #17
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 456
If anything happens on your property which causes injury chances are a lawyer will be involved in the future. I would automatically assume litigation will happen.
johnelmore is offline  
Old October 30, 2014, 07:18 AM   #18
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Back in a Non-Free State
Posts: 2,744
Quote:
If I shoot the bandits I will get sued. I acknowledge that, but what is the alternative?
It really depends on the State you are in. 60% of the States have Castle Doctrine laws. Perhaps you may want to look into your State's rules?
__________________
AI + Quantum Computing = Human Extinction Event
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old October 31, 2014, 09:05 PM   #19
Colorado Redneck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2008
Location: Northeast Colorado
Posts: 1,712
Zero tolerance firearms policy at work

Where I worked until retirement there was a lawyer written "no firearms" policy, and termination would be inevitable if there was a violation. No carry, no firearms in your truck in the parking lot. No firearms on any property of the employer. Most of the employees in my group were avid hunters and a couple lived in areas that probably warrant carrying. Needless to say, there were some complaints.

We had a couple of employees that some of us thought could go postal if things went bad for them. Those are the kinds of people we do not want coming to work with firearms. Problem is knowing who you can trust and who you can't. And NOBODY knows who. So zero tolerance was the policy.
Colorado Redneck is offline  
Old November 1, 2014, 11:17 AM   #20
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,220
hoss1969 Wrote;
Quote:
Some people call it being paranoid or gun ho but you always need to do "WHAT IF" drills in your head!

Your in the C-store back at the coolers and your hear the door chime, you smartly look up to the mirrors over the cooler , its 100° out and two people walk with hoodies up. You should be thinking if X happens im doing this or not doing that.

Your at the store walking to your car and see a guy sitting in his car looking at you. Hes just sitting there till you almost get to your car then he gets out and starts towards you. Was he just listening to the end of a song on the raido and now heading to the doors you came out? Or is it something else? If you had been doing "what if " mind drills you would already be prepared to respond instead of now rushing to judgment.

The best thing about "What if" drills is almost nobody will even know your doing them. The girlfriend can usually tell when I've picked up something and figured out what I'm going to do if it does happen. Im sure she doesn't see me work it out, but its when I move to put myself between her at what i've alerted to.
What you describe is referred to as "Situational Awareness" It is a mindset that can/will save your life. Some people go through life without this skill, they are often referred to as the "Victim".

Colorado Redneck Wrote;
Quote:
Where I worked until retirement there was a lawyer written "no firearms" policy, and termination would be inevitable if there was a violation. No carry, no firearms in your truck in the parking lot. No firearms on any property of the employer. Most of the employees in my group were avid hunters and a couple lived in areas that probably warrant carrying. Needless to say, there were some complaints.

We had a couple of employees that some of us thought could go postal if things went bad for them. Those are the kinds of people we do not want coming to work with firearms. Problem is knowing who you can trust and who you can't. And NOBODY knows who. So zero tolerance was the policy.
So, your employer created a "target rich" environment for someone bent on workplace violence ?
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old November 1, 2014, 02:31 PM   #21
Colorado Redneck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2008
Location: Northeast Colorado
Posts: 1,712
Outcast--Well, that is how most of us looked at it. But, and this is the interesting part of this--IF they didn't have a "no guns policy" and some disgruntled employee came in and shot up the place at 10:00 am on Monday, the employer would more than likely be held liable for negligence, because they allowed firearms on the property.

One of the things that was commonly opined by employees --"If somebody goes wacko and wants to kill someone, they can always go home, get a gun, and come back." Another statement was --"Unless they conduct searches of vehicles, how do they know the whack job doesn't have a gun at work anyway?" And those are intuitive to you and me, but the lawyers run the show, so each day we decide, do we work for that employer or do we not?

I guess the only thing to say about that is, our employers make decisions every day that impact the people that work for them. Lawyers run the show since other lawyers are looking for billable hours if they can find some screw up by an employer, be it valid or imaginary.
Colorado Redneck is offline  
Old November 1, 2014, 03:52 PM   #22
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,791
Quote:
Some people call it being paranoid or gun ho but you always need to do "WHAT IF" drills in your head!
Life is to short to think what if for every scenario.

Quote:
Some people go through life without this skill, they are often referred to as the "Victim".
Yes and most live perfectly happy, without being victims of crime or thinking what if.
manta49 is offline  
Old November 1, 2014, 05:48 PM   #23
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,783
Quote:
Yes and most live perfectly happy, without being victims of crime or thinking what if.
But those 20% or so that became victims are now thinking more like 100%.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old November 2, 2014, 09:58 AM   #24
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,220
Colorado Redneck wrote;
Quote:
IF they didn't have a "no guns policy" and some disgruntled employee came in and shot up the place at 10:00 am on Monday, the employer would more than likely be held liable for negligence, because they allowed firearms on the property.
While i'm sure that, in this litigious society we live in, that lawsuit is very likely, it is also the reason that employers must carry general liability insurance.


manta49 wrote;
Quote:
Life is to short to think what if for every scenario.
Ignorance is bliss but, life can be much shorter if you continue in ignorance.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old November 3, 2014, 11:47 AM   #25
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,791
Quote:
Ignorance is bliss but, life can be much shorter if you continue in ignorance.
Life can be short for all sorts of reasons. But I have managed so far without looking over my shoulder every time I leave the house. If I lived somewhere I felt that I needed to do that I would move.
manta49 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10218 seconds with 8 queries