The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 9, 2014, 08:10 AM   #26
MT 73
Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2011
Posts: 35
That's pretty much what I do, except I don't "get" my little J frame. It's in my pocket. And I can see everyone within 15'-20' of the door. So I can see that someone's alone, and have my gun in my hand (in my pocket) without the whole family thinking I'm paranoid.
Totally agree.
Pocket carry gives you good access without appearing to be armed.
It also allows you to move around in a more natural manner rather than trying to shield a drawn gun with your body.
Especially--as once happened to me--if it is the police who are knocking at your door.
( I lived in an apartment building and someone called that a woman was screaming in my apartment. Don't know why because I was home alone at the time.)
MT 73 is offline  
Old October 9, 2014, 08:58 AM   #27
zach_
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2014
Location: DFW north
Posts: 377
JohnKSa, that sounds like a typical robery situation that happens here often. I guess a person with good intentions at my door would consider me rude, paranoid, or anti-social. I have been called worse. There is a law against solicitation here. When I was a field tech, we were instructed to stand back at least 6 feet from the door after ringing the doorbell or knocking on the door. We also did not go to a house if our office did not get an answer when calling on the phone immediately prior to our arrival. Most of our clients were in gated communities, and the guard shack would not let us in without home owner confirmation, or had a gated entry to their property. This was before cell phones were mainstream. The gated communities still had higher crime rates for some reason.
__________________
Z
zach_ is offline  
Old October 9, 2014, 09:40 AM   #28
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,066
1. Answer the door - don't open it with a lot of consideration.
2. If the person says they need help - tell them you are calling the law and then go do it.

I had a late night woman knocking - I refused to answer and then heard her say to someone off to the side that 'he won't open the door'.

Wonder what that was?

If you open the door, even with your handheld howitzer - you are behind the curve from a blitz.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old October 9, 2014, 11:01 AM   #29
TimSr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
Quote:
Years ago that happened when I lived in SD. A late night knock at the door and stupid me opened it. It turned out the guy was lost on our rural road and stopped for directions. After I'd given him the directions he wanted to shake my hand and I obliged. Then he left. My son just out of the Army looked at me and told me, "Dad he had full control of you!" He did too. That won't happen again.
Biggest mistake was shaking his hand! This custom was begun as a sign of peace or truce to show you have no weapons. When he has ahold of your right hand, you are defenseless unless you happen to be left handed, and you are too close to defend yourself.

Ran into a similar situation, drunk guy at 1:30am looking for somebody. He was at front soor which I don't use, so I came out the side door, and asked what he wanted. I had slipped a jacket on with a .38 in my right hand in the pocket. I did not brandish it, or show it, just kept it in my hand in my pocket. After I told him he was at wrong house and needed to leave he apologized and wanted to shake my hand. I just looked at him, and repeated "you need to leave". He then apoligised again and said he was sorry and he didn't blame me for not shaking his hand. I told him, "nothing personal, but its 1:30am, I don't know you, and I'm not letting go of the revolver in my hand in order to shake yours." I truly believe he was a lost drunk, but If he had any malicious intentions about coming back, I'm sure he thought better of it. Yes, I called police afterwards.

IMO

Don't answer door = nobody is home

Open door and friendly= sucker

Open door, be polite but unhappy, indirectly let them infer they are covered=you picked the wrong house

Open door brandishing weapon = psycho
TimSr is offline  
Old October 9, 2014, 06:33 PM   #30
Doc Holliday 1950
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2014
Location: Bout as south as it gets
Posts: 1,199
I always re-act the way you did. It's a shame but that's the world we live in.
I will not let my wife ever answer the door even when I'm home. BTW, she backs me up
Doc Holliday 1950 is offline  
Old October 9, 2014, 08:18 PM   #31
dayman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: The Woods
Posts: 1,197
I generally greet people if they come to the door. I have good enough situational awareness that I feel like I can tell the difference between pollsters, missionaries, and boogymen.
The world is exactly as unfriendly as we make it.

I sometimes carry a gun in the house, but I wouldn't bother to get one just to open the door.
I do have a couple of large dogs, and a fairly long approach to the house.

If I was older, smaller, or lived in a worse area I might have a different view. But the worst thing I've ever had to deal with is an unwanted copy of "the watchtower".
YMMV
dayman is offline  
Old October 9, 2014, 09:02 PM   #32
sawdustdad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2014
Location: Virginia
Posts: 483
I don't think you over reacted. Not many people ever get to my front door.

These guys hang out in the yard. You've got to come in the gate to get to the house.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg small dogs.jpg (131.8 KB, 65 views)
sawdustdad is offline  
Old October 9, 2014, 09:40 PM   #33
Mainah
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2007
Posts: 866
Beautiful dogs. I spent years living with Shepherds and Rottweilers, but those days are over for me. A dog isn't going to be part of my solution anymore. Unless a chipmunk wearing my wife's favorite shoes busts into the house, then the little guy I've got now will go full Cujo. Otherwise I'm on my own.
Mainah is offline  
Old October 9, 2014, 10:03 PM   #34
BigBL87
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2014
Location: Tonica, IL
Posts: 459
Never can be too careful. We talked about a case at a training I went to for work where two high school boys gained entry to a house in a similar fashion. First time they tried didn't go well (linked that part of the wiki below). Second time they got in and murdered the inhabitants.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_...murder_attempt
BigBL87 is offline  
Old October 10, 2014, 06:03 AM   #35
zach_
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2014
Location: DFW north
Posts: 377
Sawdust, you might have a body or two buried in the yard that you are not aware of.
__________________
Z
zach_ is offline  
Old October 10, 2014, 08:38 AM   #36
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,854
No, you did not overreact. One can never be too careful.

Nor did you act very prudently, either. Opening the door, even if you thought there was only one person out there, put you at risk of being stabbed, shot, or overpowered. And the revolver in your hand would likely not have prevented it.

Watch this and reflect upon it.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old October 11, 2014, 01:50 PM   #37
stonewall50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 662
Nobody knocks on my door, but I usually inspect before I open the door. If I see it is some scrawny kid with flyers I wouldn't have messed with my gun. I would keep my foot behind the door and open it slightly.

It all depends on your own comfort and read of the situation. If you felt it was overreacting before you opened the door...why?

Sherlock Holmes is an idol for us self defense nuts. Not because he was a fighter. Or a master marksman. No. Because he didn't resort to those skills unless he had too. that is what we should strive for. Observational superiority and learn all you can as fast as you can in any given situation.
stonewall50 is offline  
Old October 11, 2014, 06:47 PM   #38
Mainah
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2007
Posts: 866
If I was as smart as Sherlock Holmes I wouldn't need to post here for advice. On the plus side I'm not hooked on opium.
Mainah is offline  
Old October 11, 2014, 07:11 PM   #39
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainah View Post
If I was as smart as Sherlock Holmes I wouldn't need to post here for advice. On the plus side I'm not hooked on opium.

It was cocaine, not opium.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old October 11, 2014, 09:52 PM   #40
SocialAnarchist
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 508
I live at the edge of a very rural village, within 1/4 mile of a county park. I do not ever answer the door after dark without my pistol in my hand behind my back. I never go out in my yard after dark without carrying my pistol. Not only is there a chance of human predators but there is also a good chance of meeting up with wild life predators on my property.

Being prepared is not overreacting. Doing something stupid and unnecessary when prepared is overreacting.
SocialAnarchist is offline  
Old October 12, 2014, 03:32 AM   #41
wojtekimbier
Member
 
Join Date: September 1, 2013
Location: Poland
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SocialAnarchist
Being prepared is not overreacting. Doing something stupid and unnecessary when prepared is overreacting.
This ^ pretty much sums up everything.
IMO you're not overreacting as long as you're doing nothing wrong to the other person (like scaring the crap out of them). It's good to have a gun just in case anything goes bad. If everything goes alright he won't even know you were armed.
wojtekimbier is offline  
Old October 12, 2014, 08:57 AM   #42
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,854
Quote:
Posted by wojtekimbier: It's good to have a gun just in case anything goes bad.
If have opened the door to face one, two, or three violent criminal actors, having a gun may nor prove as helpful as many people seem to imagine.

You may be able to deter someone, or not. You may be able to shoot someone--or not. But the gun will not make you invulnerable.

Leave the door closed.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old October 12, 2014, 12:27 PM   #43
X_shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 274
You did OK. Plan A - Remember phones and doors dont need to be answered. Hands don't need to be shaken and you dont need to engage in conversations. Predators rely on human nature to gain advantage over their victims. Being polite can get you killed in some situations. While it may get you some strange looks, you have to evaluate rather quickly whether a threat is present. Guess wrong and you have to implement plan B.

Thinking about sticking with plan A reduces the liklihood of needing a plan B.
__________________
X_shooter
X_shooter is offline  
Old October 12, 2014, 05:54 PM   #44
Papa D
Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2014
Posts: 30
I totally agree with your choice. I lived in a rural area for a while I work from home. Once, there was a pounding on my door. Not a polite knock, but a pounding. This was in the middle of the day, when my wife had our car out running errands. I grabbed my 12 gauge, loaded with Deer slugs (no neighbors, mind you), Had it behind the door. Guy on the other side claimed to be from a "Frozen Food distributor" but did not say what company he was from. There was an additional man sitting in his pickup. I advised him I was working at that time, but if he wanted to return later in the evening both my wife and I would be home to discuss what products he was selling. He never returned. I know in my heart he was casing my house.
__________________
Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land.
~2 Chronicles 7:14
Papa D is offline  
Old November 11, 2014, 05:48 AM   #45
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,614
The only visitors we get who are not known to us, and the cell phone has already confirmed they are coming, Religious Lady's, they come two by two, not so much anymore, 2 or 3 times a year?

"Sorry Lady's, no Soliciting, go back and read the signs you missed when you came in!"

I am fully dressed, Glock 19 in belt holster, in my ratty old dressing gown, it is in a surgically altered pocket! Cell phone in the other, like now!

A firearm on your person you are armed, if not, you are not.

We have had one break in in the last 8 years, we knew who, Mother threw him out, not seen here since. Drugs, what else.
Brit is offline  
Old November 11, 2014, 01:52 PM   #46
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,439
shoot no. What you did was a textbook perfect operation. The kid gained access to you safely, got his work done, and left without perceiving you as a threat, and you were left unmolested.

I wasn't there, I don't know you, don't know anything, and don't even know how much of your story is based on fact, as it is all seen from your own perspective, the perspective of an imperfect mind.

let me reiterate. You live in a world that includes constant risk. Risk comes in the form of people occasionally knocking on doors and killing the people who answer. In fact, that happened only a few years ago in this very town, a man rang a doorbell and shot his ex girlfriend to death right in front of her two children the second the door was opened. He also murdered two individuals in a gang execution less than a block away from my home, in fact. he was an evil man, and God knows, it may have been him at your door. Do not dismiss this possibility.

So, the doorbell rang, and you discretely armed yourself, had your wife take up a defensive posture, you examined the situation outside the door, and when you were convinced that the risk was minimal to non-existent, you opened the door and transacted the business. As you present it, that is an A+

Do you HONESTLY believe, even a little bit, that you did something wrong? Honestly, please ask yourself what you may have done wrong, and then assess those items fairly. Unless you can find a part that is obviously, grossly wrong, and makes absolutely no sense in retrospect, why would you question the decision? My belief is that you are merely second guessing yourself, trying to reframe this into a more "logical" (read this "what somebody else might think is more logical) event. Maybe your father wouldn't have answered the door like this, the guys on seinfeld wouldn't have, the people who complain about gun owners wouldn't have. Now you are questioning yourself, because lots of people are already questioning your decisions, and telling you that you're a bloody idiot just for owning one in the first place.

I'd like to point something out. When you talk about self defense, there is one common thing you encounter time after time. People telling you what not to do, or you will rot in prison. Don't use handloads, don't use this or another ammo or gun, drag the body into the house, warn, don't warn, point, don't point, wait until a weapon is shown, wait until the weapon is in your face, wait until the goon racks his slide, until he threatens to kill you, so on.

People want to look smart. They will impart "wisdom" all day long. Sometimes, that wisdom is absolute horse leavings. but you, you are left with nagging doubts. There are people who have told you that you must wait until you are in the very gravest of danger before you even think about deadly force, at risk of lethal injection for killing a retarded ten year old who pointed a cap gun at you. There are others who say "damn the conseuences, blow that goon away!" Is it any wonder that a person is left with second thoughts?

You have learned what needs to be done. You have learned what rules to follow. Continue to learn, continue to think, and when you are presented with a situation use your best judgement. one of the smartest people I know said this.
Quote:
If you make a mistake, it is because you used the best information that you had at the time, and interpreted to the best of your ability. You shouldn't think of it as a mistake. It was a failure of information and how you used it.
Two months ago, I had a situation. I was approached by gang members who apparently intended to physically attack me, seriously injure me. I drew a gun and stopped the attack by presenting the weapon. There were so many things that I did that were not optimal for the situation, but everything I did was "right" for the situation as it unfolded. Only in hindsight can I sit and analyze, and criticize my decisions based on the information. I've learned from a lot of it.

don't allow yourself to be forced into bad choices by people who will second guess your every decision. Don't make choices based in improbable scenarios and warnings that will cause you to make mistakes in judgement, keeping yourself from doing what you must do when the need comes.

i drew my pistol and put it on his chest. Ironically, the 20+ year old goon who stood at least 3 feet taller than me, outweighed me by easily 30 pounds, looked me squarely in the eye, sneered, and asked me if I was ready to spend the rest of my life in prison for killing a 17 year old unarmed boy. Oh, brother. Should I have listened to his warning, and put away my handgun, giving him the opportunity to kill me?

The unarmed 17 year old boy, as he was leaving, shouted that he was going to be back again, with a gun of his own, because "nobody points a gun at me!" Again, ridiculous irony, he only left because one of his friends convinced him to do so. His friend reminded him that "it's not worth going back to prison!" In fact, prison was the least of his worries, wouldn't you say?
briandg is offline  
Old November 11, 2014, 02:23 PM   #47
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,439
For another story, I am member of a board of cigar smokers. One of them came on with a long story about how a fedx truck stopped at his house, a fed x man came to the door with a fed x box that he had ordered, and rang the bell. He grabbed his .44 magnum, stuck it in his front pocket, and brandished it for the fedx man when he opened the door. His justification for it was the bogus news story that UPS was selling uniforms online to anyone who bought them (BS. The fact is that they were selling jackets for the NASCAR team sponsored by ups.)

His excuse for this was that the truck, uniform, and package may have been stolen, and the guy was just following the routes, and delivered his package to him as scheduled because it was on the box address.

This guy was serious. He was expecting a package, and when the package was delivered, he approached the situation as being an insanely unlikely situation of a criminal taking control of the driver, his uniform, his car, and the boxes with addresses, only to go from house to house killing and robbing the people as he delivered the merchandise.

I bluntly told him that he was borderline nuts, probably an idiot, and that he was flirting with disaster. I told him that he needed professional help with whatever mental illness he was experiencing. I told him that there was, on the surface, no reason at all to believe that his scenario was even remotely likely.

While it is a good idea to go to the door with a weapon at all times, opening the door brandishing a weapon when no obvious threat whatsoever is presented is just stupid. Creating unlikely scenarios in the mind is dangerous, as acting on the crazy as a bedbug ideas is too easy to do in a moment of panic.

here's a realistic scenario for a paranoid nutcase like him.

Fedx driver has worked all day in 110 degree heat indexes. He's irritated, maybe even angry. He's carrying a 70 pound drill press. Losing sight of his instructions, instead of putting the thing on the ground when goofball pops the door open before he even reaches the porch, he does goofball a favor, and pushes past him to put the box down inside the door.

Is goofball so wrapped up in his crazy, paranoid delusions that he draws and empties the cylinder of all rounds into fedx, because the scary, dangerous delivery man tried to do him a favor, and forgot the rules of delivering packages?

It scared the hell out of me to know that people that crazy were ordering pizzas, and being visited by teenaged mormon missionaries.

This is a prime example of overreacting.
briandg is offline  
Old November 11, 2014, 03:02 PM   #48
TimSr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
Opening the door and brandishing a weapon when its a police officer knocking might not end well.
TimSr is offline  
Old November 12, 2014, 08:00 AM   #49
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,854
Quote:
Post by TmSr: Opening the door and brandishing a weapon when its a police officer knocking might not end well.
Same thing applies no matter who is there.

But according to the OP, he did not do that.
Quote:
....I opened the front door with my left foot and shoulder behind it at about 45 degrees and the 642 in my right hand behind my back. I kept my body weight behind me and the gun behind my back while I curtly answered his questions...
Base on that description, he did not threaten anyone.

But the idea that he had effectively, or even partially, mitigated the risk of being harmed by a violent criminal actor, had the caller turned out to have been one, does not hold water.

There are much better ways to go about it, as indicated in the link I posted above.

and today's technology gives us access to still more. If you take the time to plan ahead, you can put in place affordable items that well permit you to scan the outside with your smartphone....

...wiithout going to the door, and without putting yourself at risk by standing in front of the door.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old November 12, 2014, 09:18 AM   #50
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,093
Quote:
In the end it was just a small, 20 something political volunteer. In retrospect I kind of have to admire the courage that it must take to knock on strangers doors in the middle of nowhere. I never brandished, but did I overreact?
In what twisted society must it take courage for a kid to knock on doors and hand out political pamphlets?

In this specific case the OP over reacted.
Buzzcook is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10680 seconds with 9 queries