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Old August 22, 2014, 07:23 AM   #51
45_auto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawg23
I'm amazed at the number of people who want to rationalize why they "need" to clear a house by themselves.
As others have stated, trying to make one rule fit everything is nonsense.

Alarm system in the green, all three dogs lying there licking their paws and I hear a bump? I have a VERY hard time imagining any one hunkering down and calling the cops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawg23
For those of us whose last name isn't Miculek, Leatham or Enos, your carry gun should be your "range gun."
Many of us have more than one gun. One of my range guns is a scoped, 9.5" barreled Super Redhawk. You must be very popular with the ladies if you can use that as your "carry" gun!

Last edited by 45_auto; August 22, 2014 at 07:29 AM.
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Old August 22, 2014, 05:37 PM   #52
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I'm not going to dispute the fact that clearing a home may not be the best way to proceed.

But I will state that I firmly believe that a person must willing to risk bodily harm (or death) in defending what is important to them.

As has been stated, there are millions of different scenarios and no one answer fits every question.

It is always stated that "racking the action" of a shotgun is a dumb move. But on one occasion many years ago, it was that very action (no pun intended) that ended a possible confrontation in my own home.

I think that it is often believed that criminals are supermen intent on dueling it out with their victims, or assailing home owners with ninja-like combat skills.
On the other end of the scale is gun-owners that think the gun gives them the god-like power to control and dominate any opponent in any situation.
Of course, as always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

And the fact is many criminals are looking for the easiest prey and will break and run with any sign of resistance.

How you factor in the variables and come to you risk threshold is a very personal choice.

Oh, and my carry gun is not my home defense gun.
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Old September 16, 2014, 06:32 AM   #53
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I have the same Glock 19 that I carry, and shoot IDPA with.

Have a few more Glock's, other guns, they live in a safe in the Garage.

My Jeep shares the Garage! Never stays outside. Back in.

My Wife and I live in my wee town house. If I am up, I am armed, and Cell Phone.

Called the OCSO once, some one pulled the screen door open, if locked you can pull it open, but it gives a loud crack sound, then you can hear the rubber wiper on the bottom, make a distinctive sound as it pulls across the door mat.

These two sounds woke me up (not my Wife) bedroom door open, hear no other sound, from top of stairs, can not hear anything else, 2-30am, call dispatch, on Cell phone, await the troops!

Five or six Deputy's show up? Dead quiet night? The Dispatcher kept me on the phone, made sure my Glock was upstairs, when I went down stairs to let them in.

No one in house, but someone had definitely pulled the screen door open.

Lots of thank you's, back to bed. Only call in ten years.

If I had to do that again, would turn my very! bright LED light on the stairs.
Glock in right hand. And wait a while.
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Old September 17, 2014, 07:30 AM   #54
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I used to get fooled by creaks and bumps at night quite a bit. Then my wife got two cats that like to play at night. Now its less "clear the house" and more "find what thing the cats broke tonight". Generally if the dog slept through it, its probably normal in our house.

Now when you have both cats + dog in the bed and something crashes, different story. Had that recently, turned out to be an over carbonated home brew that exploded at about 3 am. Exciting event.
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Old November 9, 2014, 08:26 PM   #55
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When I was in 3rd grade a man broke into our house one night My room was the first one he got two and I totally buried myself under my blankets so he would not see me as he flashed his light around the house. He must have thought we were not home. He screwed up when he got to my parents room. My mother is a light sleeper and woke up when he shined the light into the room. The guns were all locked away because of me and my younger sister were in the house. He waited a few seconds thinking maybe I had gotten up to go to the bathroom. When the flashlight moved to my sisters room he decided something was wrong he flew out of bed like some sort of Ninja and charged the guy. the police were sure they knew who did it but the rain washed away too much evidence. They found some footprints and lights were on in his home so they questioned him. He answered the door in a robe and muddy shoes. He apparently jumped out the window he broke the lock on, jumped all of the fences going down the street, crossed the street and jumped the fences on the other side of the street and entered his home through his back door. Thankfully he was not armed.

Another time when I was much older and married someone picked the lock into my basement. My wife was at work I had my shotgun in the closet and 3 dogs sleeping at the foot of my bed. I heard my German Shepherd stir when the stairs started creaking but he stay put because he probably thought it was my wife coming home and she would be heading to bed shortly. I grabbed the shotgun and stood just inside my bedroom door were I could here more clearly but not be seen or heard. my Shepherd was a retired police dog. When the BG got to the top of the stairs I sicked my dog on him. He was so fast that he got there before I could rack a shell into the chamber the dog latched on and the guy ended up going head over heals down the stairs and right out door he entered through. I called my dog off because I had my shotgun at the ready but the guy ran off and I was not going to shoot him in the back. The police never found him but they stepped up patrols in the area.
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Old November 11, 2014, 02:45 PM   #56
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I've had many situations where bumps, bangs, creaking doors and so forth have had me look in my basement, or even the ground floor as we slept. It has never been an intruder. One time, I called police about a person walking around my yard, crunching on leaves, when I couldn't see that person through the windows.

It turned out to be a rabbit. They hop, not walk, and a rabbit hopping through the yard sounds just like footsteps.

Checking my basement every year or so is a spooky situation. I am totally vulnerable as I go down the stairs. I never go down them without checking to see if the outer door has been compromised, to allow entry to the basement. It's just logical.

it sounds like you were a little jumpy. Maybe that's what you should have done, maybe not.
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Old November 20, 2014, 01:17 PM   #57
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Edited for Clarity:

(Back when I was working Evening / Midnight Patrol in another jurisdiction)
The wife and I came home from a day trip to Northern Va to find the door forced on the house. We had lived in our rural community for more than ten years at the time, where most didn't lock their doors. I called the Sheriff's Office, identified myself and asked for a deputy for backup. I told them we had a break in and didn't know if they were still in the house but we were both armed and covering until they arrived.

The deputy took his sweet time getting there, but on his arrival I started to brief him on the layout of the house and told him that when we entered, he needed to be aware of the.....

"UH... you can wait outside sir...." the deputy said. He stood on the porch with both thumbs hooked in his gunbelt, and his weapon holstered.

"UH... my house and I know the layout. Done this before. You are here to back me up on this one speedy, I told him" I had my vest on over a T-shirt and was ready to enter.

He shook his head and told me that it was his jurisdiction and I would go back to my car while he waited for his partner to arrive, he was getting dressed and would probably be here, within the hour.

"How many building searches have you done?" I asked him, "I do about between five and ten a week, and have been working patrol for about 10 years, you do the math"

He started to follow me in the door with his weapon still holstered. I nodded at the gun in its holster:
"You going to draw that and back me or what?"

"They are most likely gone. When my boy get's here we'll walk thru and check the place and I'll take the report."

I turned and told him to wait outside if he wasn't going to take the search seriously. He could make his choice. Either way, I'd take his conduct up with the Sheriff the next morning. He walked off the porch and stood in the yard and pouted. I searched the house and found that we had interrupted the burglary, only my wife's snubby and some ammo were missing. Some jewelry collected on the bed had been left behind and none of the rest of the goodies NOT in the safe had been bothered. They had run out a side door and into the woods when we came up the driveway. (250 yards winding up the ridge. )

The new deputy hadn't been there long, and wasn't there long after. Seems he had a number of complaints, and mine was one of the last the sheriff wanted to hear. The back up deputy arrived about 30 minutes after I completed the search. The burglar was never found. We had our suspicions but no proof. I put in the alarm system and cameras right afterwards.

They don't just take property, they take your peace of mind.

Last edited by brokenolmarine; November 20, 2014 at 04:46 PM.
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Old November 20, 2014, 01:39 PM   #58
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Quote:
Posted by brokenolmarine: The wife and I came home from a day trip to Northern Va to find the door forced on the house. We had lived in our rural community for more than ten years at the time, where most didn't lock their doors. I called the Sheriff's Office, identified myself and asked for a deputy for backup.
A private citizen does not call for a deputy for "backup".

Quote:
I told them we had a break in and didn't know if they were still in the house but we were both armed and covering until they arrived.
What would you have done with your firearms had someone come out of the house?

Quote:
"UH... you can wait outside sir...." the deputy said. He stood on the porch with both thumbs hooked in his gunbelt, and his weapon holstered.
At which point, that is exactly what you should have done.

Quote:
"UH... my house and I know the layout. Done this before.
Read Frank's posts above on who had the advantage. By the way, he knows what he is talking about.

Quote:
You are here to back me up on this one speedy, I told him
Come again?

Quote:
I searched the house and found that we had interrupted the burglary... They had run out a side door and into the woods when we came up the driveway.
You were extremely lucky.

Consider what Frank has said, and remember that your firearm offered you absolutely no ballistic protection--none.

Quote:
I put in the alarm system and cameras right afterwards.
Good.

Quote:
They don't just take property, they take your peace of mind.
Entering a house to do whatever you intended to do if you encountered someone would not give you peace of mind.
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Old November 20, 2014, 04:25 PM   #59
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My error, I didn't make my background clear and I'm new here. I thought the post was more informative than it obviously was.... that's the problem with posting on the forums, especially when you are new.

I was a patrol officer in another county at the time... I also taught street survival, officer safety and building search in the academy; and was a department firearms instructor and armorer. I also had a 50 yard range on the farm and taught private classes and shot competitively. The wife and I were known to the sheriff and the department and had lived in the county for some time. I had "Identified myself to the dispatcher and asked for backup." The firearm offered protection as I was well versed in both it's use and the search techniques, but also, I was wearing my ballistic vest. Had I been through specialized building search training in the academy? Yup. Shoot House? Yup. Force on Force? Street Survival Seminars? Yes to all.

There are some of us qualified to search our property. THAT was the whole point of the post.

In addition:
We were well known to not only the Sheriff's Office but to the State Police working the area as both the wife and I were EMTs with the rescue squad here and working two counties in the rural area, where Troopers respond not only on traffic but to back the local departments as needed. The wife responded to MOST of the calls in the area since she was a housewife, and available more often than not. I also responded when I wasn't working evening or midnight patrol.

What would I have done if we found someone exiting the house with a weapon? We would have challenged from cover and stopped the threat if one existed. I was ON my property, clearly posted farmland, and within my rights to challenge an armed suspect and demand they comply.

Last edited by brokenolmarine; November 20, 2014 at 04:52 PM.
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Old November 20, 2014, 04:56 PM   #60
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I agree with your last statement entirely. After a burglary, nothing returns the peace of mind that the burglar has taken. The sanctity of your home has been violated and that cannot be restored. The alarm system and cameras can give the wife a sense that there is a bit more security. We can have a bit more comfort knowing that the house is monitored when we are away, but ... our peace of mind will never be restored.
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Old November 20, 2014, 07:05 PM   #61
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Quote:
Posted by brokenolmarine: I was a patrol officer in another county at the time...
Did that give you any authority to act in the circumstances described outside your jurisdiction?

Quote:
I also taught street survival, officer safety and building search in the academy; and was a department firearms instructor....
I'm quite surprised that that background did not lead you to do everything possible to avoid the situation entirely.

Quote:
I had "Identified myself to the dispatcher and asked for backup."
Back-up to do what? Are sheriff's departments expected to provide "back-up" to off duty officers outside their jurisdictions?

Quote:
The firearm offered protection as I was well versed in both it's use and the search techniques, but also, I was wearing my ballistic vest.
The firearm offered no ballistic protection, but a vest would have.

Quote:
Had I been through specialized building search training in the academy? Yup. Shoot House? Yup. Force on Force? Street Survival Seminars? Yes to all.
And you still thought it prudent to proceed alone?

Was there a pressing need? Someone inside whose safety was at stake?

Quote:
There are some of us qualified to search our property. THAT was the whole point of the post.
You may have had some training, but everyone on this board who has had training or the duty to clear houses and who has commented has told us that that they were trained to operate as teams, and that to do so when it can be avoided, particularly alone, is a very poor idea.

Quote:
We were well known to not only the Sheriff's Office but to the State Police working the area as both the wife and I were EMTs with the rescue squad here and working two counties in the rural area, where Troopers respond not only on traffic but to back the local departments as needed.
Your acquaintance does not matter and the EMT status is irrelevant, but maybe you answered my question about jurisdictional authority. I cannot tell.

Quote:
What would I have done if we found someone exiting the house with a weapon? We would have challenged from cover and stopped the threat if one existed.
.That is a situation that you could have avoided.

Quote:
I was ON my property, clearly posted farmland, and within my rights to challenge an armed suspect and demand they comply.
That gets pretty iffy.

Being on your property gives you the legal right to ask trespassers to leave.

Regarding "confronting an armed suspect" and "demanding "they comply", your authority is the same on your property as it is on the farm down the road.

I do not think it was prudent to disregard the instructions of the law enforcement officer with the clear jurisdictional authority. I do not think it prudent to enter a structure unless you have a sworn duty to enforce the law in that jurisdiction, and the protections against personal liability that that would entail; did you? If not, you risked your safety, and that of your wife, just to protect what the law defines as "mere property."
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Old November 20, 2014, 10:01 PM   #62
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Quote:
I've had many situations where bumps, bangs, creaking doors and so forth have had me look in my basement, or even the ground floor as we slept. It has never been an intruder. One time, I called police about a person walking around my yard, crunching on leaves, when I couldn't see that person through the windows.

It turned out to be a rabbit. They hop, not walk, and a rabbit hopping through the yard sounds just like footsteps.

Checking my basement every year or so is a spooky situation. I am totally vulnerable as I go down the stairs. I never go down them without checking to see if the outer door has been compromised, to allow entry to the basement. It's just logical.

it sounds like you were a little jumpy. Maybe that's what you should have done, maybe not.
My basement is the same way.

I remember one night, probably 4 years ago now that I heard a load crash in the night. My wife and I woke up instantly the noise was so loud. I grabbed the only non-scoped gun I then owned, an M44 Mosin Nagant, loaded five rounds in the magazine and went to look.

Now, me now would have loaded my shotgun, strapped on my Glock, called the police and guarded over the wife and kid in my own bedroom which has only one entranceway and is easy to defend.

Me then thought differently. I ran out to see what the noise had been, and at first I saw nothing; but I pushed open the kitchen door and saw that my side door, which leads down into the basement was swinging wide open in the middle of winter! We hardly ever use that door, let alone leave it open, so I was now sure someone had just forced their way in and run into my basement.

What do I do? Retreat and call the cops?

Nope. Stupid me instantly flips on the basement light (switch at the top of the stairs) and issues a challenge. When I hear nothing I charge down the stairs and give the room a quick circle shouting the whole time. I see nothing. I check the little side closet where I keep odds and ends (including some dangerous things like axes and shovels) too. Nothing.

To this day I have no idea what made the noise or why my door was swinging open. But in the morning I did realize how moronic my approach to the situation was and my wife and I came up with an emergency plan to deal with these situations: get the kid, hunker down in the bedroom with weapons and CALL THE POLICE!
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Old November 21, 2014, 12:45 AM   #63
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More than one of us have headed down to investigate a noise.

With a Mosin Nagant? Heck, I once did so with a US Rifle, Model 1903. Fortunately, the noise was caused by the cat, opening and closing desk drawers, looking for catnip. Good thing. I cannot imagine firing a .30 '06 indoors.

Lesson learned? No. Not for me, not then. I headed down armed to investigate noises more than once on subsequent occasions.

Fortunately, in each case, everything turned out alright, because there was no one there.

But I did not realize that.

Then, in 2008, when I received my state required training for a CCW endorsement. the instructor emphasized, "let the threat come to you".

I'm really not sure that that registered, fully.

Then a discussion or two of this subject arose on the web. More than one member related tales of their training, including FoF training in which participants clearing structures with which they were familiar always "lost" to defenders using simunitions.

When one says, "I did realize how moronic my approach to the situation was and my wife and I came up with an emergency plan to deal with these situations: get the kid, hunker down in the bedroom with weapons and CALL THE POLICE!", one has nailed it.

But one need not always call the police. If the noise does not repeat itself, or if there is no real indication that there is anything wrong, one should probably just go back to bed.

Been there, done that, the right way and the wrong way.

Now, if there is someone in the house who may be in danger, one will likely decide to manage risks differently. I have been there, too.

Last edited by OldMarksman; November 21, 2014 at 12:51 AM.
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Old November 22, 2014, 04:16 PM   #64
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I've investigated many bumps in the night. Of course, having 3 cats is enough to have these issues several times a week. First thing I do is count little heads. Usually there is 2. That's generally enough to know one is up to no good. The times that scare hell out of me is when I am awakened by something, check the bed and find 3 little heads all looking toward the door, and I can't even remember what the sound was that woke me up, inviting sleep paralysis.
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Old November 22, 2014, 04:31 PM   #65
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This is an excellent read on the subject.
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Old November 25, 2014, 07:56 AM   #66
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When living in California I once jumped out of bed and drew my .38 on the door that was creaking and cracking loudly and the whole apartment shaking. I was sure somebody was breaking down the door until I realized it was an earthquake.
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Old November 25, 2014, 08:53 AM   #67
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I had a deer jump through my french doors, my wife had the gardener plant some vegetation earlier that day, well it didn't take the deer long to find it, my guess from watching the video is that a yote, fox, or shadow spooked the deer and sent him through my $8000 pair of french doors into my dining room, which has a motion light {because we hardly use it and the kids will leave the switch on everytime they walk through} which spooked the animal even further into a frenzy...

Well you can picture what kind of noise this made, alarm blaring, I jump up Grab my HD weapon, clear the second floor as fast as possible, and make my way towards the noise...

The cops showed up and it was quite the ordeal, but all was well the intruder learned its lesson, lol... The insurance company took care of the damage...

over the years, I have investigated a few noises, while I don't have illusions of ninjas breaking in to kidnap my family, I am alert and prepared enough to be confident me and my family are safe when we shut the lights at night...

I fear for some others though, a friend of my cousin almost shot his daughters friend, she was sneaking in the house because she was locked out of her apartment, she had texted his daughter and she went down, disarmed the alarm and left the back door unlocked, well he seen the lights in the back yard come on, thought it was an animal until he heard the door open!!! He jumps up grabs his glock 40 and runs down the stairs, sees a figure and retreats back to the corner of the room, the daughters friend was trying to manipulate the door to get it to lock behind her, who knows what was going through his mind, he turns the corner and fires a shot, she screams, he missed by as I hear it about a foot, I guess he told the story as an inch BUT my cousin said she would have had to be 8ft tall because the hole was a foot over his head....

The cops came, took his weapon, checked the scene out, and I am not sure if he ever got it back, I would imagine he did, but firing a weapon in or 10 yards of a occ dwelling is illegal... It just goes to show you though, if he wasn't so shooken and a better shot that could have ended with a 20 year old girl in bad shape...

I have done HD classes and I am confident {I pray I am, we don't know until the situation is upon us}, I will know the difference between a threat and not, there are tons of stories and news clips out there where someone shot what they thought was an intruder and turned out to not be.. About 5 years ago about 50 miles from a her a guy shot his son, not fatal thank god, but again, the kid came home from college was supposed to be staying at his girls house, they got in an argument he went home at some ungodly hour and his dad shot him thinking he was an intruder...

This is where the announce or not announce comes into play, do you aleert the intruder and wait for a response? What if that response is a bullet? What if the intruder is your neighbors drunk 17 year old son sneaking into the wrong townhouse? I just pray we can all make good decisions and stay safe at the same time, these posts are great because maybe they will convince someone to not hurt someone who doesn't deserve it, but on the other hand you don't want someone to get hurt because they should have shot when they didn't.. It is a tough responsibility protecting your home with deadly force, because there is no rewind button to delete your mistakes..

I personally think I will announce when the subject is in sight, even if it looks like an intruder, they will be in sight and I will be locked, but I will give an order like "HANDS UP" and go from there... Also I make sure my kids know I am shooting someone that comes in the house uninvited in the middle of the night, so if they are sneaking in or out they are taking a chance, lol.. The real reason behind this is so if I ever have a gun pointed at them they will alert me to the fact its them, like "dad its me", this will also keep them from having people over when I am not aware of it.. My son will often come in my room and say "chris is on his way over his dad was called into work", now I know there will be another person in the house and I wont shoot them in the middle of the night when they get up to go to the bathroom...

Be aware, Be alert, Be careful...
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Old November 26, 2014, 02:33 AM   #68
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OK, so I've read through the links that Frank provided in post #12 and perhaps my reading comprehension skills are lacking or perhaps I just missed it (that was quite a bit of reading), but I'm still only seeing four choices when it comes to dealing with bumps in the night: go investigate, roll over and go back to sleep, call the police and shelter in place, or shelter in place indefinitely without calling the police.

Now, rolling over and going back to sleep just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. If I hear something strange in the middle of the night (particularly something strange enough to wake me up), it doesn't seem prudent to just ignore it.

Likewise, sheltering in place indefinitely doesn't seem very practical either. I very highly doubt that many people are going to spend a sleepless night crouched behind their bed with a gun trained on their bedroom door every time they hear a strange noise at night.

So, this leaves me with either investigating or calling police and barricading. Calling the cops and barricading is obviously the best choice if I know, or am at least pretty sure, that someone is breaking in. The sound of a window shattering or a door being kicked in is pretty distinctive and not something I'm going to go gawking at by myself.

That being said, it's when the bump in the night is strange, but not immediately suspicious that seems to be the rub here. If I called the cops every time I heard a strange, but not obviously threatening noise in the middle of the night, I'd probably have them at my house at least three or four times a year. While I'm sure they'd probably respond every time, eventually I'd likely get the reputation of being the guy that calls every time the wind blows and they'd quit taking me seriously. Not to be taken seriously is the last thing I want if I've called because someone really is breaking in.

So, it seems to me that in the interest of remaining vigilant without becoming the proverbial "boy who cried wolf" investigating strange, but not obviously threatening noises myself is pretty much all I'm left with. If there's some other option that I've missed, I'd be very interested to hear it.
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Old November 26, 2014, 08:00 AM   #69
riflemen
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Don't pay too much attention to that BS, you pick a plan that makes sense to you and you are comfortable with...

As far as holding up in one place while someone "may" be in your house, to me that is insane, I have a family to protect, so what if my son decides to investigate when he hears a noise. NOPE, if I hear a noise, I take a walk through the house with my HD weapon, not a big deal, it doesnt happen often and we have a very good alarm, SO if there is an issue most likely the alarm will alert and be calling the police anyway, in that case I will clear the second floor and hold my ground at the stairs, if the noise continues, I know how long it takes for the police to get there, someone could burn my house down in that time, so you are damn right that I am going to investigate further...


HAVE A PLAN GUYS, put it in place and practice it, what does it hurt, run it by others you trust and make it has failsafe as you can with provisions for any obstacles you can think up... Good luck and be safe..
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Old November 26, 2014, 08:52 AM   #70
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Posted by riflemen:

Quote:
Don't pay too much attention to that BS, you pick a plan that makes sense to you and you are comfortable with...
Being "comfortable" is a very subjective thing, and it may not constitute having an acceptable level of protection against death or injury. At one time, I was relatively "comfortable" walking downstairs quietly with a gun in my hand. It "worked", simply because there was no one there.

But I know better now.

Quote:
NOPE, if I hear a noise, I take a walk through the house with my HD weapon, not a big deal, ...
Not a big deal unless you are ambushed by armed criminal actors.

Quote:
...if the noise continues, I know how long it takes for the police to get there, someone could burn my house down in that time, so you are damn right that I am going to investigate further...
Realistically, the chance that someone will burn your house down while you are in it is minuscule, compared to the chance that you will encounter two or more criminals who are armed and dangerous.

Quote:
HAVE A PLAN GUYS, put it in place and practice it, ...
Good idea.

Quote:
...what does it hurt, run it by others you trust and make it has failsafe as you can with provisions for any obstacles you can think up...
Everyone whom I trust who knows anything about the subject agrees with Frank in Post 12, and with Rob Pincus in the book I cited in Post #65.

Simple game theory supports their opinions. After having thought about it and having realized that I do not have vision that covers 360 degree in more than one axis, and after having looked at the angles and cover in my house, I came to wonder why I had ever believed that my gun, which offers no ballistic protection at all, would make me safe.

But if one is dubious, get some Airsoft guns and a couple of smart people. Go through a dozen different simulation exercises. Pay them handsomely every time they shoot you.

I would try that, if I still had any doubts on the subject.

Then decide.

Do not forget that there are safe strategies that do not involving calling the police in an uncertain situation; you can eliminate the uncertainty almost entirely. It wouldn't cost much at all to obtain the capability to see most of your house on your iPhone from anywhere you happen to be.
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Old November 26, 2014, 09:51 AM   #71
riflemen
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Ill go through this with you, I don't mind the conversation, I enjoy the chance to discuss security, if our discussion will be productive and help someone defend themselves better, than its worth my time...

II am not saying that someone should throw on a yello tee shirt and run down the stairs with a gun in a holster, you should use care to know your property better than an intruder, the building should be dark and you should have your back to the wall, move slowly, listen carefully, and be ready... If a pair of assailants can get the drop on you with a flashlight in your own home, I don't know if there is any help for you, maybe hiding would be best...

I have a 4500 sq ft 3 floor home, my bedroom is at the furthest point away from the open stairway loft on the way to that loft are both of my sons rooms. In the case of an alarm, I arm myself and my wife arms herself, I go to my first sons room and clear it, he will be awake {alarm is loud}, I tell him to go to the room with his mother, same goes for my second son, they are not to leave the room unless I come and get them, now they are in the room with my armed wife behind a solid core locked door... {Before I re-enter the room I will shut the alarm and announce myself, part of our plan, she will expect me to announce myself and she will have to unlock the door to let me in...} I don't want to get too far into it but she will know if I am alone or not...

Now my family is safe in my bedroom behind a locked door and armed...

I continue to the stairs and at that corner I have a perfect sightline of my entire first floor formal living room, edge of the dining room, ect. Thats when I will look, listen, and make a decision to go further or hold my ground there and wait for police...

I can't tell you what will happen next because I will have a few choices, if I see an intruder and can get a shot at him, I may take it, I may announce myself, I may wait for police, its never happened and it would depend on the shot, the amount of people I thought were in the house, ect...

If I hear they are in the back of the house where I can not see I may descend the stairs and get closer to the bottom.. I have the advantage of having a large open floor plan with open lofts. If I was in a small 2000 sq ft home with a single closed staircase, small rooms, and corners everywhere I would have a plan that worked for that building... Sitting tight may be the best option in some homes...

I practice, shoot all the time, and can handle myself pretty well {semi pro football, boxed for a while and still train, lots of MMA training, ect} so being ambushed by a couple of 200lb meth addicts may be less of a concern to me vs a 180lb soccer dad... My plan reflects my abilities and my situation, it may not work for anyone else, but I would not feel comfortable sitting in my room barricaded up with my wife not knowing what is going on outside them doors...

If someone comes in my home they are coming for a score, jewelry, money, guns, ect.. That stuff is not in the kitchen, I would rather have the high view and know when they are coming vs waiting for them to smoke me out or kick down my door...

Sure there is some expensive stuff in the kitchen, lol my wife has a hard piped commercial bunn coffee machine that was $1500, an $800 blender, $1500 ice cream machine, and a $2000 Hobart mixer, BUT burglars aren't going to be there for that, I have about $100K in stereo equipment, a 1940 juke box worth $20K alone, BUT they are not going to be there for that either, in the middle of the night, they arent running back and forth to their car with 120lb amplifiers or huge speaker cabinets, they want pockets full of jewelry, money, and guns!!! Like I said, NOT IN THE KITCHEN, if they have the balls to stick around after the alarm goes off they know the police response time and they are coming for the master bedroom, I will not be there waiting, they will never get a foot on the bottom stair...

I would like to think my plan is solid, I have a few trooper and locals that I have gone over it with on card nights, they have helped tune it and agree its solid, I have taken classes on defense and home defense specifically, I actually built a specific HD weapon, invested around $3000 in it, custom smithed trigger job, polish job, .400 corbon barrelled railed 1911, ct grips, strobe light with laser {2 laser because the one on the strobe is only visible with night vision goggles that I own a few pairs of} its the only gun with a light on it in this picture... That is what an intruder will be looking for $20K in just that one picture, a $175K gun collection will be on their list, nothing that is on the first floor of my home would be on their list...

heres a pic of some of my speakers not too easy to move around, stuff like that no matter what it is worth is not why someone is in your house at 3 am while you are home... I am 6'5 300lbs, weight train everyday and them things are hard to move around for me, you can see the 23" arm in the window reflection , lol...


I am not sure if you have ever heard of the Cheshire murders it was big news here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshir...vasion_murders not long ago and not far from my home, a conversation like this could have changed that day, always arm your alarm, always have a bedside weapon of some sort, no matter how nice your neighborhood!!! I live in an area full of million dollar homes, it can happen anywhere...

Again, thanks for the opportunity to discuss this if someone learns something or it makes me aware of something that can help me, its productive and worth the time... I in no way want this to become an argument, I do dissagree that you should "bunker down" and wait for the police, my area does not have local PD, we have state police, 3 cops on the night shift for our area and its a LARGE area, I will NOT be waiting for them, if anything this should show that there is no one rule that applies to all situations...

I can think of a situation where waiting and hiding would work, single man and wife live in a small town home {no kids in other rooms}, police station 2 blocks away, response time under 4 minutes, cellular auto dialer on the alarm, plus they call it in personally to be sure, audible alarm is activated, solid core bedroom door locked with a tooled entry time of at least 2 minutes, another exit in the bedroom maybe? Something like that can work, just sit tight and wait for help, but that is not going to work for many people, I much prefer the gather the family in a safe room and guard it from outside the locked door method...

I learned from the home invasion class I attended that they are coming to your bedroom, more than 75% of the time they are coming for your bedroom, thats where the jewelry is, the money, ect that is where they are coming... The days of poking out a window ac unit grabbing a vcr and running are over, vcr's and dvd players are $50 brand new, maybe worth $10 on the street, they are there for what you keep close...

my wife wears a 5ct diamond ring {I tell her not to wear that ring when she goes to town, but she forgets and does, not so much since I have pleaded with her not to}, its not a stretch for someone to realise that is 6 figures and follow her home, case the place and figure a good time would be in the middle of the night... There is no jewelry on the first floor of my house someone with the balls to come in, is already fixed on the prize, police response time is not good enough to save me, I will be at the corner or at the stairs locked and loaded, ready to fire..

I will be honest, I hate the idea of someone burning down my house, and I have heard the stories of what guys have been doing, they light a fire, wait for everyone to leave and then take what they can, its not impossible considering the size of these properties, I can not see what is going on 75ft around the other side of my house... These people don't think normally because they would be working like a normal person, not robbing my house, lol.. I am strongly on the side of defending my property and protecting my family, if it means I have to leave the safety of my bedroom {and it does} then I am fine with that...

Last edited by riflemen; November 26, 2014 at 10:09 AM.
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Old November 26, 2014, 11:19 AM   #72
OldMarksman
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Posted by riflemen:
Quote:
In the case of an alarm, I arm myself and my wife arms herself, I go to my first sons room and clear it, he will be awake {alarm is loud}, I tell him to go to the room with his mother, same goes for my second son, they are not to leave the room unless I come and get them, now they are in the room with my armed wife behind a solid core locked door... Now my family is safe in my bedroom behind a locked door and armed...
Good plan.

Quote:
I continue to the stairs and at that corner I have a perfect sightline of my entire first floor formal living room, edge of the dining room, ect.
Can't visualize the layout--might be okay, for a strategy that relies on the technology of yesteryear.

Wouldn't you like to have a perfect sight line of everything, from the bedroom or from anywhere else you might be located?

Quote:
Thats when I will look, listen, and make a decision to go further or hold my ground there and wait for police.
With respect, I know the right answer to that one already.

Quote:
If I hear they are in the back of the house where I can not see I may descend the stairs and get closer to the bottom.
Think about that for a moment: sounds coming from the back of the house do not provide any evidence whatsoever that someone is not standing in wait to shoot you on the stairs.

Quote:
I have the advantage of having a large open floor plan with open lofts.
Across which others can see and shoot from different angles....

Quote:
I practice, shoot all the time, ...
Good. I'm sure you do not really want to shoot anyone. Right?

Quote:
...and can handle myself pretty well {semi pro football, boxed for a while and still train, lots of MMA training, ect} so being ambushed by a couple of 200lb meth addicts may be less of a concern to me vs a 180lb soccer dad...

I am 6'5 300lbs, weight train everyday and them things are hard to move around for me, you can see the 23" arm in the window reflection , lol...
There is a saying to the effect that Col. Colt made men equal.

Quote:
I would like to think my plan is solid, I have a few trooper and locals that I have gone over it with on card nights, they have helped tune it and agree its solid, ...
But have you ever tested the plan?

Read the links in Post #12. Pay particular attention to the reports of skilled, experienced defenders engaging in FoF simulations and losing every time when they try to clear structures with which they are intimately familiar.

Quote:
I have taken classes on defense and home defense...
Surely you recall the advice to let the threat come to you.

Quote:
...specifically, I actually built a specific HD weapon, invested around $3000 in it, custom smithed trigger job, polish job, .400 corbon barrelled railed 1911, ct grips, strobe light with laser {2 laser because the one on the strobe is only visible with night vision goggles that I own a few pairs of} its the only gun with a light on it in this picture...
Neat. It will not, however, give you 360 degree vision or afford any ballistic protection.

You could put in one heck of a high-tech, redundant, smart-phone-based viewing system for what that cost.

You could even check things out from the end of your driveway. Two friends of mine have had occasions to do that.

Quote:
I am strongly on the side of defending my property and protecting my family, if it means I have to leave the safety of my bedroom {and it does} then I am fine with that...
Family, yes, but what kind of value judgment would lead you to put the value of mere insured property above the potential loss of life, crippling injury, loss of mental capacity, loss of income, and a change in your life that would be irreversible?
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Old November 26, 2014, 03:00 PM   #73
James K
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Sounds like an area thieves might find attractive, but also a place where everybody makes big buck contributions to the local politicos, so it is pretty much a sure thing the cops will be there about three nanoseconds after the alarm goes off. A poor family might wait while the fuzz stops at the doughnut shop, but the mayor's golfing buddy will get an immediate response.

Jim
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Old November 26, 2014, 05:52 PM   #74
riflemen
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Believe it or not the response time here is pathetic, because its low crime, homes are few and far, and there are 3 cruisers on the road for a HUGE area...

OK so in reply to old marksman,

I will try and take some better pictures of the layout of my home, I have a few that I used for another forum I frequent showing a lot of my audio gear but they don't show things like the stair case, loft area or any of the areas I am talking about, I am also paranoid enough not to be crazy about posting pictures and too many intimate directions on my home security plan on the internet, lol..

Anyway, I have a full view, and as far as video systems I have plenty of cameras inside and out, I can look at them on my iphone, but that program take minutes to boot up, I don't know which one you use but both of mine {one is a lorex {they are owned by flir} and the other is night owl {its the zuess system if I remember correctly, it was one of the only hdmi enabled systems at the time}, I have cameras all around the house, at each entry way there is a full motion camera controlled by my Iphone, I can open garage doors, turn on the pool lights, inside lights, tv's, gas fireplace, hvac system, ect ect ect from my phone, I can even talk to the person at my front door when they ring my door bell as if I was home, so my security system isn't the issue, the issue is the time it takes to log that system on my phone...

It would be much more simple to turn the tv to hdmi3 and see 4 cameras at a time, but even that by the time my wife gets her glasses, finds the switcher, remembers which channel, I would already have my kids in the room and be going to the corner at the top of the stairs to make sure no one was coming up...

I had a deer jump through my french doors, there was a ton of racket, so I proceeded carefully and clearing to the area of the noise, open enough I could tell it was not an intruder...

I am not saying my plan will work for everyone else, BUT I am saying that staying put may not be the best plan for everyone... And I can tell you there are some old hard heads like my father and my uncles that are charging in guns drawn, chasing intruders down and shooting everything that moves... You can say, HUMAN LIFE IS WORTH MORE THAN MATERIAL GOODS, or BREAKING AND ENTERING IS NOT A DEATH PENALTY OFFENCE, ect ect ect But in some people houses it is and some people would rather die defending their belongings and their peace of mind or security than wait for the burglar to come knocking on his bedroom door with a can of gas and book of matches...

I am on the border of that, I have to admit I have a little Viking Warrior in me that would not want someone entering my house and then just getting away because they grabbed what they could and ran off before the cops got there, maybe I would like to break their arms a little and twist a few fingers back? I am not saying that is what I would do, I am just saying I will make sre my family is safe, I will then defend my home, Ill make my way down the stairs {open staircase} watching and clearing as I go..

I have practiced it with laser pointers and my brothers, there is no way I get shot clearing down the stairs, you have to picture it, I walk from the hallway of my bedroom, I can see down over the loft the entire front of the house, there are 27ft ceilings in there I can see clear through to the outside from up there, so now as I come down the stairs I can see no one is in the front, so I can face the rear where is the only place they could be, and I can even look in the picture window at the reflection to see what is there from the bedroom side of the house...

SO I come from my bedroom looking down and forward then I spin and look down and back as I am coming down the stairs, I am now focussed on 2 areas on the side of the kitchen is about 2 feet I cant see and on the opposite side towards the second living room there is a spot above behind a closet I can t see, neither of the 2 would have access to me until I have already cleared the one in the kitchen, then the other spot, if there is no one there, there is probably no one in the house, the lower level sounds a different alarm, and if they were down their it is just a guest suite, the gym, and the swimming pool room... I have no plan for clearing down there because if the first floor is clear, I can see them leaving or coming from the french doors off of the kitchen.. But this has to be all foreign to you because you have never seen it..

My house has 5 bedroom, 3 parlors, a kitchen , dining room, 2 lofts, 2 offices, and 4 1/2 bathrooms, so there would be a lot to clear but once I get the bedroom floor done and the living floor done the rest is easy to monitor, they would need to come up the stairs {that door is always locked, it leads to a guest suite with 2 beds, a bathroom and living room, that we only use for guests} or out the 2 sets of sliders by the pool, all motion lighted and fenced in...

After reading a little more, I can agree with the sit and stay method, wait for the police, IF {this is a big if}, you are that type of guy. If you can look yourself in the mirror after someone looted your house for 15 minutes {that is a good response time by the way, mine is longer} while you were upstairs armed sitting with your wife looking at you the entire time, watching in a camera or just guessing what these stangers are doing to your property... They are not just taking your belongings they are raping your security. Maybe instead of a sign saying "trespassers will be shot" we need one that says "trespassers will have to answer to the police if they are still here when the police arrive"...
The guys that will stay still don't need an HD weapon they need a vault door that takes less time to open then it does for the police to arrive on their bedroom....

I always say read everything you can practice as much as you can and make a decision based on what you think is best, I would hate to talk someone into being confrontational when they are not that type of person, if you will feel better hiding under your bed with your gun pointed to the bedroom door than that is your plan, mine is a little different.

I don't have a death wish but I am secure enough to know I can defend my home against a few intruders, like I said before if they have the balls to stay after the alarm goes off, they have the balls to light your house and fire while you are in it, I wont give them the chance, I am up, have the kids in my room with my wife locked down and armed and I am clearing the front room from above and at the staircase in under 2 minutes, I have practiced it at 3 am after sleeping for 4 hours with my alarm clock {one night the alarm clock went off when it wasnt supposed to so I figured no time like thepresent to practice my plan, I woke the kids, my wife and they all thought it was an emergency, I wish I took a picture of my wifes face when I told her it was a drill, she was ****** for all of a week, she sometimes still brings it up, she dialed 911, that sucked because I didn't plan for that, and I didnt tell her it was a drill until after the cops left, it took them almost 20 minutes to arrive, and looking at who they sent I knew I was on my own for self defense, lol..

Thats the other issue, I will Kill and die to protect my family, a lot of the cops I see, I am sure they will kill, but they aint dying for my kids... So if you wanna sit and wait for the cops to come and save you I guess its better than blindfolding, handcuffing, and throwing yourself at the mercy of the intruder. Me I will stick to my plan, I hope and have a good idea I will never have to use it, but if I do, I am glad its practiced and planned...
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Old November 26, 2014, 07:43 PM   #75
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riflemen
...I wont give them the chance, I am up, have the kids in my room with my wife locked down and armed and I am clearing the front room from above and at the staircase in under 2 minutes, I have practiced it at 3 am after sleeping for 4 hours with my alarm clock {one night the alarm clock went off when it wasnt supposed to so I figured no time like thepresent to practice my plan, I woke the kids, my wife and they all thought it was an emergency, I wish I took a picture of my wifes face when I told her it was a drill,...
And of course it all worked out just fine because there was no intruder willing to engage you. OldMarksman seems to have more patience than I do and is willing to accept your posts in this thread at face value and to respond to specific points. I'll cut to the chase and simply say, "Phooey!"

As I wrote in post 12 in this thread:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
If you do some searching here, you will find that the consensus of educated opinion is that going forth to investigate a bump in the night can lead to serious trouble.
That's correct. Notice that all these "going forth to investigate" stories with a happy ending have one thing in common: There were no bad guys there. If there had been a bad guy, the ending would probably have been a good deal less happy for the good guy.

We've discussed the inadvisability of solo house clearing here, here, here, here, here, and here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serf 'rett
...It wouldn't be to smart to go back to bed if there was an intruder inside...
No, it wouldn't. So heed this advice from pax:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pax

Quote:
Unless you have family that needs to be secured, lights on or off, I don't think going searching for the BGs is a great idea.
Quote:
The mistake is more likely to be going to investigate, not whether the lights are on.
This. It bears repeating.

When a criminal breaks into your home, the smart thing to do is to get yourself and your loved ones into a locked room with your weapon out and ready to fire the moment the criminal comes through the door. Once your family is safe behind that locked door, don't go looking for trouble! Call the cops and let them find the intruder for you.

Waiting in a secure place while keeping your family behind your protective firearm is not cowardly. It is not an act of surrender, and it isn't even "hiding from the crooks!" It is simply setting up a well-planned tactical ambush.

This tactical ambush tilts the odds in your favor and puts you in the best position to directly protect the most valuable things in your house: your life, and the lives of the people you love.

Of course, you may surprise the intruder while you are moving to secure your family. That is why we train how to move through the house, how to "pie" corners, how to retain the firearm if attacked, etc. -- not because we will "clear the house" by ourselves, but because we may need to move through danger to protect family members....
Quote:
Originally Posted by serf 'rett
...
Quote:
the consensus of educated opinion
I trust that diagreeing doesn't get me labeled as uneducated.
Well let's see what pax had to say about that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pax

One thing that always fascinates me about this stuff is that those who have a higher level of training have much more robust understanding of how to do it safely... and also of how & when not to do it....
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