The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 20, 2014, 11:08 PM   #51
jeager106
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2006
Location: N.E. Oh.
Posts: 527
The op was talking about the midevil German sword which was an extremely loooooong weapon, much longer than most folks think a sword should be.
Now put the sword out of your head. You don't carry a sword for self defense.
I doubt this forum called The FIRING Line ever was intended to discuss carrying the midevil German loooooong sword for self defense.
Now that's cleared up why would you ever drop your handgun if an attacker somehow got hands on you?
If the attacker is unarmed why did you draw a firearm?
If the attacker has a knife & you let him get hands on you then you are already sliced up.
I don't see any point to this argument at all.
I'll simply say, and this IS advice, don't drop your weapon, ever.
O.K.?
jeager106 is offline  
Old September 21, 2014, 10:51 AM   #52
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 19,980
Lanyards, saber knots, retaining straps and saddle rings are not in vogue today, but do still exist, and serve the same tactical purpose they always did. They are the original weapon retention system, useful afoot or ahorse.

You may not be able to retain your weapon in your grip, but a lanyard retains your weapon within your reach. (yes, sometimes they break, nothing is failure proof)

Quote:
If the attacker is unarmed why did you draw a firearm?
You draw against an (visibly) unarmed opponent for the same reasons you do against an armed one, imminent threat, and disparity of force.

More than a few of us are in that category were a fight could be fatal. Even a single blow, under the right circumstances could be it. Certainly some teenage punk with the physical size of an NFL halfback, trying to pound my head into the pavement qualifies in my judgment as a lethal risk.

Disparity of force. Its just that simple for many of us. Now, if you're still in the prime of life, have martial arts training, and have previously thought things through about what you would do, when (as evidenced by your internet posts) there could be some questions asked about why you drew and shot that punk who was only "playing a game" (beatdown game?)

On the other hand, if you are social security age, and have medical conditions to boot, the disparity of force is much clearer for the average person to grasp.

as to the loooong sword, it has its uses. Useful when your opponent is beyond short sword reach. Mounted opponents, fighting in/against pike formations, and reaching over the bulwark of ships locked together in boarding actions come to mind easily.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old September 21, 2014, 09:18 PM   #53
seeker_two
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 2,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeager106 View Post
Quote:

Another good thing about folding knives.....much easier to conceal in a closed hand when walking to your car....and much faster to deploy than drawing a holstered gun.


Much less effective than a handgun, less range and you really, really, need to know how to effectively use a knife for defense.
Effective enough to change a BG's mind, more range than you think, and yes I do....
seeker_two is offline  
Old September 22, 2014, 05:05 PM   #54
Mainah
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2007
Posts: 849
I was a professional line cook for over a decade, my average shift was nine hours and I spent at least five of them working with a knife. And I do all the cooking at home, spend at least an hour a week chopping and slicing. That's a lot of muscle memory. I have a couple of folders that I've vetted and I trust their integrity as much as most of the fixed blades that I own. They sure aren't all created equal, but some locking mechanisms are quite reliable.
Mainah is offline  
Old October 8, 2014, 07:56 AM   #55
MoBart
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2009
Posts: 267
I agree 100% that haveing hand to hand or, close combat, capabilities is very important. In the Marine Corps we learned how to use the rifle as a serious impact weapon with the butt stroke and how to retain control with a finger grab and rotate. But the most important thing we learned in my opinion is the use of a bayonet. Mounted to the rifle you gain lethal advantage from contact to 500 yards distance. Unmounted it's a lethal weapon at hand to hand distance. Wrestling and ground fighting should seem basic but haveing some practice and training is needed to sharpen or retain skills in this just like shooting. I'm not a big handgun fan but haveing a solid revolver adds the grip frame and grips into the impact weapon arena pretty well. They are solid and have enough mass to be pretty effective but I would assume they would still be functional after such an impact. I don't know how well the magazine base plate of most pistols would withstand the same impact but that's another reason to always carry spare mags.
MoBart is offline  
Old October 20, 2014, 10:34 AM   #56
Jeff #111
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2001
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,026
I'm always worried that one day we might find ourselves having to deal with some suspect who is carrying (and is skilled) a sword or a fighting spear or some other type of weapon. As a police officer I am usually well within 21 feet of people. Kitchen knives, screwdrivers, forks, hammers, broken compact discs, chains, steel toed working boots, bottles, heavy glass ashtrays and so on. Our pistols are just one of many things that we carry. Pepper spray, a good old fashioned hardwood straight-stick or asp (I carry a straight-stick), Taser, folding knife, my brain and so on. Am I some type of Grand Weapons Master? Nope.

I mostly focus on being aware of my surroundings and if I'm the primary officer trust that my cover officer(s) is paying attention. I'm busy writing notes and running driver licenses with dispatch. That's reality.

One thing I have done in the past few years is dump about seventy pounds. Went down from 255 to 185 and lost eight inches around my waistline. I'm healthier and more fit and I just look better in my uniform. I've noticed that since I did this (and I've stayed at 185) I get a whole lot less attitude from the pukes and I don't get in as many hands on situations as I used to. They aren't as willing to take me on. A little while ago I found a team photo taken in 2010. Wow. If I was a puke I would have been willing to take me on back then as well.

I'm also not as quick to anger anymore. I'm speculating, but I wonder if all that weight had an effect on me as well.

Anyway much about combat is tactics and being aware. Nothing new there. Just my personal experience.
__________________
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who didn't. Ben Franklin
Jeff #111 is offline  
Old October 20, 2014, 01:14 PM   #57
psalm7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2014
Location: Middle TN
Posts: 543
I just bought a Cold Steel Bowie Machette it makes a great short sword . I' m putting it on one of my LC2 load bearing sets .
psalm7 is offline  
Old October 21, 2014, 08:45 PM   #58
GM1967
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Delaware - formerly NJ
Posts: 275
Quote:
I think the last US fixed bayonet charge was during WWII. Possibly there have been some others since, small actions somewhere.
Last US Army bayonet charge was in Korea. Lewis Lee Millett Sr. (December 15, 1920 – November 14, 2009) was a United States Army officer who received the Medal of Honor during the Korean War for leading the last major American bayonet charge. They won that battle.

I like swords, but they aren't practical defensive weapons any longer. That doesn't mean that a good sword can't be a fearsome weapon even today, even against a gun at close range.

Unfortunately, most swords available today are really only stainless-steel sword-like objects....wall hangers, made of stainless steel (stainless steel makes great knives, but lousy swords, too brittle when longer than 12 inches or so, dangerous to the user and bystanders). But if you look, you can find real swords for sale today. If interested, look for Albion Swords, Cold Steel, or something like a Paul Chen Practical Katana.

Knives, machetes, and "bush swords" can still be viable practical weapons today, but should always take second place to a gun
GM1967 is offline  
Old October 21, 2014, 09:26 PM   #59
psalm7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2014
Location: Middle TN
Posts: 543
There was atleast 1 bayonet kill in Iraq by a Marine clearing a house and 1 Kabar kill in A marsh in I think Southers Iraq by a U.S Marine . A Soldier in the U.S Army Big Red 1 killed a insurgent with a Gerber multi tool while house clearing in I think it was Anbar Province after a long hand to hand fight .
psalm7 is offline  
Old November 16, 2014, 02:34 PM   #60
sigxder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 20, 2009
Posts: 388
Violence comes very fast and often is final. Lots of gun folks want to see everything as a "gun solution". Makes life easier in the world of fantasy. Truth is as fast as someone can be on you (think Tueller drill) you better have some empty hand skills. CCW'ed weapons especially have to be drawn from concealment.
You may very well have to fight to get to your gun. You don't have to be an MMA fighter. But you really should get at least a foundation in H2H Combat. Most everyone that carries a gun other than civilians gets some H2H. Rather Police Survival or Military all get some level of H2H. If guns are a part of your everyday lifestyle. You should at least be able to buy you some time with H2H so you can get to your gun. Just think of it as insurance.
sigxder is offline  
Old November 16, 2014, 03:25 PM   #61
Aikibiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2002
Posts: 159
Quote:
There was atleast 1 bayonet kill in Iraq by a Marine clearing a house and 1 Kabar kill in A marsh in I think Southers Iraq by a U.S Marine . A Soldier in the U.S Army Big Red 1 killed a insurgent with a Gerber multi tool while house clearing in I think it was Anbar Province after a long hand to hand fight .
I personally know a former Ranger that killed a badguy in Afghanistan with a double edged dagger of some sort (think it was a gerber or coldsteel, but can't remember) when he got wrapped up with him while clearing a house and could not bring his rifle into play. It was an unpleasent experience for the guy and he had some issues over it still last time I talked to him.

He was totally convinced that it was impossible to use a handgun at grappling range until I showed him some of the shiv works curriculum.
__________________
__________________________

~Joel

TFL survivor, THR member, TFL member once again!
Aikibiker is offline  
Old November 16, 2014, 08:56 PM   #62
NateKirk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2013
Location: Detroit
Posts: 435
Just remember everyone that knives are just as lethal as hand guns. Don't count them out; one is not a substitution for the other. But keep in mind that only two things happen in a knife fight: one person leaves in an ambulance and the other in a body bag.
__________________
“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".”

― --Thomas Jefferson
NateKirk is offline  
Old November 16, 2014, 09:06 PM   #63
NateKirk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2013
Location: Detroit
Posts: 435
Quote:
This is silly.
People do train for close quarters combat with handguns.
There's less of a need for it because - unlike a sword - you don't have to be within grappling distance to effectively use a gun.
That kind of thinking is unwise. Unless you are carrying something ridiculous, you are likely to have to shoot someone several times with a handgun in order to immobilize them, and by that time unless they were running at you from across a football field they will be pretty close to you. Also I would imagine people coming up and arguing with you without an apparent attempt to attack, and having it escalate while they are already within knifing distance.
__________________
“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".”

― --Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by NateKirk; November 17, 2014 at 11:09 AM.
NateKirk is offline  
Old November 17, 2014, 10:26 AM   #64
psalm7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2014
Location: Middle TN
Posts: 543
In my opinion . Hollow points that transfer energy on impact will get a agressor off of you quick . I train from point blank out to 50 yards with a handgun ( Ruger p89 9mm and Ruger black hawk .357 Mag ) . I also train with a knife just in case ( Issue Ka-bar and Cold Steel Bowie CRKT folder M16 ) . With a handgun at grappling range as you draw and raise I target the Liver then Heart by then you should be able to step back and target anywhere from the upper lip to between the eyebrows . If needed then just go for center mass but training gives you somthing to fall back on and not panic so you can make those decisions . .
psalm7 is offline  
Old November 17, 2014, 11:10 AM   #65
Aikibiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2002
Posts: 159
Quote:
With a handgun at grappling range as you draw and raise I target the Liver then Heart by then you should be able to step back and target anywhere from the upper lip to between the eyebrows
Current training for using a pistol (or any weapon including the defender's own knife if it is more accessible) at grappling range involves entangling the subjects weapons arm or attaining a position that keeps you from getting stabbed before accessing your weapon.

You can kind of get the idea from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeX1PyKKuYk
__________________
__________________________

~Joel

TFL survivor, THR member, TFL member once again!
Aikibiker is offline  
Old December 13, 2014, 05:56 PM   #66
T-90
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 11, 2011
Posts: 131
The weapon is as good as the person using it. A unskilled person with a handgun is not going to be as effective as a person skilled with a sword, at a range of 25 feet or less. There are people who through discipline and practice are more dangerous with a blade than many are with a gun.

As to what the OP is saying about wrestling being a part of Western Martial arts and swordsmanship..he is right. In the last 20 years or so many military manuals from the middle ages have been found in various European countries buried in libraries. Somewhere I have a translated version of the French voulge in PDF from the 14th or 15th century. With drawings and explanations. The trained man was supposed to be able to engage targets in front of him and behind him. That is not Hollywood, that was what was expected of a infantryman wielding a voulge.

The OP stated he was training in German Longsword. My hats off to him. That is a difficult art to master, and is something I would like to get involved in one day. Lots off upper body strength and endurance is required for that.

As far as utilizing swordsmanship into a bowie knife...ahhh..not so much. Different stances, approaches, and dynamics. No weapon is obsolete, only our perception.

Last edited by T-90; December 13, 2014 at 07:04 PM.
T-90 is offline  
Old December 13, 2014, 06:08 PM   #67
T-90
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 11, 2011
Posts: 131
Natekirk is right! The impact from a 9mm is equal to holding a 10 pound weight about 5 inches from your open palm and dropping it. In many cases with handguns, the attacker has to be shot multiple times to stop, even with big bore handguns people don't just stop when shot. That is why handguns are considered personal defense weapons. They are to just stop an attack, and in reality have a low mortality rate. Something like 6-8%.

Last edited by T-90; December 13, 2014 at 07:05 PM.
T-90 is offline  
Old December 13, 2014, 11:39 PM   #68
Big Shrek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: NorthWest Florida
Posts: 1,330
Spent more time over the years in hand-to-hand than I have engaging with firearms...
and that's after many years of SASS, IDPA, GSSF, & IPSC competition...
chances of using my firearms, low...
chances I'll jack someone's jaw, fairly high...

Upside, with over a dozen years of working as a bouncer & bartender,
pretty darn good at crowd control...and LOTS of practice with multiple assailants


That's the thing about options...you either have 'em, or you don't.
If the only tool in your toolbox is a gun, better have a VERY good lawyer on speed-dial.
While Maiming by hand is usually only a misdemeanor...lawyer helpful, but not usually required

Another great thing about having martial skills, you get Levels of Damage to choose from.
You can go from Control maneuvers to Lethal in an instant...your choice...
also the choice of the situation...how many attackers, how big, how skilled...
all the factors weigh in on how nasty you can legally be.

The Other factor, how well you can make Lethal look like a total accident??
think about that for a minute. Really think about that.
You can be an over-muscled Operator...but how well is that going to play in court??
On the other hand, if you come off like Clark Griswold, (eternally stupid golden retriever)
chances are the local constabulary lets you walk out free...and thinks you got lucky in the fight
That's the angle you really want...no muss, no fuss.

Why do I say that??
Had a few issues with "Excessive Force" early in my life...until rethinking the angles...
let some chunk cover the muscle, but kept lifting...far better to look like a softy and not be one...
so you carry an extra 20-30 pounds...no big deal when you are 6'3/250...
just don't let it get out of control!

Then got heavily into Aikido, an Art that has Options...from Nice to Nasty in a blink.
Great thing about Aikido, you can make it look like the other guy was clumsy as heck
and practically beat himself senseless trying to hurt you...all you did was get out of the way!!

Now, you look like "A Lover, not a fighter", and the witnesses all say you were just dodging the attacking butthead.
If the butthead happened to misdirect himself headfirst into a concrete curb and dies...oh well.
It sure ain't "George Costanza's Fault"...chunky guy that trips over his own feet...
that's what you want to project for the LEOs & DA's...
Chances of court action?? Low. THAT is the best outcome

Tools. Toolbox. Have some options for a less than lethal response, or lethal without a weapon.
Best thing, is NOBODY believing you are capable of doing heinous damage except by ACCIDENT!!

Didn't you guys watch Columbo when you were kids??
__________________
Marlin Specialist
Calico Specialist
A gun should be a tool in the hands of a deadly weapon, not a deadly weapon in the hands of a tool.
Big Shrek is offline  
Old December 14, 2014, 01:52 PM   #69
Aikibiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2002
Posts: 159
Big Shrek,

I love Aikido. Been doing it for years and get to use it from time to time on the job. However I would never reccomend it to someone that does not already have some experience at real fighting first.
__________________
__________________________

~Joel

TFL survivor, THR member, TFL member once again!
Aikibiker is offline  
Old December 14, 2014, 03:15 PM   #70
NateKirk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2013
Location: Detroit
Posts: 435
Awesome post shrek. I'll need to learn a martial art. You said you use Aikido, can you recommend others?
__________________
“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".”

― --Thomas Jefferson
NateKirk is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09849 seconds with 8 queries