The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 6, 2014, 03:41 PM   #26
zombietactics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: Northern California
Posts: 447
RE:

Quote:
... I doubt anyone here would disagree that a .50 BMG shot to the middle torso has a much better chance of immediately incapacitating an assailant than a .22 LR shot at precisely the same spot. ...
Yes, but it should be clear that this is mostly because the .50BMG is travelling at ~3000fps, and thus likely to produce secondary wounding effects, as is typical of high velocity rounds. The 22LR is small and light, but more importantly travelling well below the range of velocities which produced large secondary wounding effects.

If you changed nothing about the rounds except the velocities ... sending a 22LR type projectile at ~3000fps and a .50BMG type projectile at 1000fps ... the effects would be mostly (comparatively/qualitatively) reversed.
__________________
__________________
NRA Certified Instructor • NRA Certified RSO • Certified Glock Armorer

Last edited by zombietactics; May 6, 2014 at 03:47 PM.
zombietactics is offline  
Old May 6, 2014, 03:56 PM   #27
Mike1234
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2010
Location: Alamo City
Posts: 356
Largely true but not entirely. A bowling ball traveling at 1000 FPS is far more likely to kill than a .22 caliber bullet at 3000 FPS... depending on impact placement.
Mike1234 is offline  
Old May 6, 2014, 06:49 PM   #28
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 456
My personal opinion is these non-stop internet threads about stopping power are futile. If you want to see the effects of a rifle then go to the LiveLeak website and search for Iraq. You are going to see some videos of what that AK47 will do. Its quite effective at stopping. All pistol rounds are weak except if you hit just the right spot. Most training instructors tell me to think in terms of 3 pistol shots instead of 1. In any event all calibers in trained hands will do damage. The effects will not be pleasant and the damage inflicted likely permanent in some form.

My prediction is we will go round and round talking about stopping power in this thread, post up various studies, etc but at the end of the day a rifle is a rifle and a pistol is a pistol. If you want to defend yourself the right way get a rifle. If you cant carry a rifle around then carry whatever pistol works for you. If that little 380 round or the 38 Special is what works for you then train with it. A well placed 380 round is better then a miss with the 40 caliber.
johnelmore is offline  
Old May 6, 2014, 07:07 PM   #29
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,626
Quote:
If you changed nothing about the rounds except the velocities ... sending a 22LR type projectile at ~3000fps and a .50BMG type projectile at 1000fps ... the effects would be mostly (comparatively/qualitatively) reversed.
I think you would be disappointed with the truth of that.

The soft lead 22LR would likely break up in the barrel with that kind of centrifugal force, if it did hit something it would splat. A 750 grain 50 caliber projectile @ 1000 FPS is still going to do massive damage.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old May 6, 2014, 07:57 PM   #30
zombietactics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: Northern California
Posts: 447
Quote:
I think you would be disappointed with the truth of that.

The soft lead 22LR would likely break up in the barrel with that kind of centrifugal force, if it did hit something it would splat. A 750 grain 50 caliber projectile @ 1000 FPS is still going to do massive damage.
Not so disappointed. Note that I said "22LR type" and ".50BMG type". I know full well that an actual 22LR soft lead round won't cut it. I'm not trying to be cute, so I apologize for the confusion.

Consider that a 5.56/.223 round is the same diameter however, and hardly much heavier. Even M193 ball will tear stuff up in very nasty ways. There are plenty of lead-nosed rounds which absolutely do not "splat" upon impact.

A .50cal bullet travelling at pistol speeds will poke a very nice 12.5mm hole and not much else, besides over-penetrating like nobody's bidness. There's no doubt that it would be more effective than an actual 22LR at similar speeds.

On the other hand, if you wanted to line up 4-5 guys and shoot them all at once ... or shoot bears ... very nice choice.
__________________
__________________
NRA Certified Instructor • NRA Certified RSO • Certified Glock Armorer
zombietactics is offline  
Old May 6, 2014, 08:02 PM   #31
Model12Win
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,854
I think we can all agree that the .45 ACP has the greatest potential to stop of all the defensivie calibers.

That doesn't mean the .45 ACP will stop, at least 100% of the time, but all things considered bigger bullets tend to work better and you aren't getting much bigger than the .45 ACP. Also, while the other calibers might expand the .45 will never shrink.

It's what I trust my life with day in, day out. Nothing else will do for me, because I don't live my life hoping for the best.

I demand it.

-M12 Winny
Model12Win is offline  
Old May 6, 2014, 08:14 PM   #32
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Model12Win
I think we can all agree that the .45 ACP has the greatest potential to stop of all the defensivie calibers....
Why?
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old May 6, 2014, 08:26 PM   #33
zombietactics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: Northern California
Posts: 447
Well, we've reached the part of our program where people just start posting up gun-counter-tough-guy clichés as if they are holy writ from on high.

It generally goes downhill from there/here.
__________________
__________________
NRA Certified Instructor • NRA Certified RSO • Certified Glock Armorer
zombietactics is offline  
Old May 6, 2014, 08:46 PM   #34
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,200
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombietactics
Well, we've reached the part of our program where people just start posting up gun-counter-tough-guy clichés as if they are holy writ from on high.

It generally goes downhill from there/here.
Sadly very true.

As noted previously the data does not give a specific, clear, firm answer. There is no basis upon which to claim categorically that cartridge X is "best." The best we can really do is suggest that cartridges X, Y, Z, or Q are generally likely to be better choices than cartridges A, B, C, or D.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old May 6, 2014, 09:52 PM   #35
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,109
Quote:
I think we can all agree that the .45 ACP has the greatest potential to stop of all the defensivie calibers.

That doesn't mean the .45 ACP will stop, at least 100% of the time, but all things considered bigger bullets tend to work better and you aren't getting much bigger than the .45 ACP.
Well, you could go with .50 GI, if you are hung up on size. Or if you want to be close, go with .44 mag and have a lot more power.

Quote:
Also, while the other calibers might expand the .45 will never shrink.
Sure, it will, especially frangible ammo or ammo that otherwise breaks apart.

Quote:
It's what I trust my life with day in, day out. Nothing else will do for me, because I don't live my life hoping for the best.

I demand it.

-M12 Winny
I primarily carry .45 acp as well and what is supposed to be top notch defensive ammo. However, as far as self defense goes using any pistol caliber is nothing but hoping for the best.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old May 6, 2014, 11:28 PM   #36
JimmyR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2012
Posts: 1,273
To get back to the OP's article...

I think the main facts of the article are all things we can agree on:
1) Shot placement is a key element of ending a fight with a handgun.
2) That the term "stopping power" doesn't have a clearly define, widely accepted definition, and is largely a marketing term.

My biggest issue with the author is his disregard for testing methods for ammunition. Until he is willing to provide his own deceased loved ones or his own deceased pets for testing purposes, I hope he can understand that balistics gel might be the best option for ammunition testing in a controlled environment free of additional variables that must be accounted for.
JimmyR is offline  
Old May 7, 2014, 06:25 AM   #37
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,109
Quote:
Until he is willing to provide his own deceased loved ones or his own deceased pets for testing purposes, I hope he can understand that balistics gel might be the best option for ammunition testing in a controlled environment free of additional variables that must be accounted for.
LOL, such criteria are wholly unnecessary. Plenty of people are willing to donate or sell their bodies to science and there is a virtual endless supply of livestock carcasses that can be used. So there is no reason to call for Vail to have to use his own family or pets for such testing.

Whether he is willing or not does not detract from the aspect that such tests certainly could be beneficial and provide more relevant information than simple gel testing, though using human or animal bodies comes with additional problems and considerations as well as the need for additional controls to make testing consistent.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old May 7, 2014, 07:57 AM   #38
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,066
Oh, dear - let's go back to the definitive Goat tests, now shall we?

Cliches abound without reference to reference to the actual usage of the scientific method.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old May 7, 2014, 07:28 PM   #39
Balduran
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2014
Location: Alberta
Posts: 12
stopping power

I don't belive shooting at dead flesh is a good indication of "stopping power"
As the flesh bag is already stopped.

A better study would be to get a billion dollar grant to go study munitions effect on all them pigs causing a ruckus down south.

You know, shoot them from all angles with all calibers on several different test subjects. Maybe get a bunch drunk and some hopped up on different drugs and make them real mad.

You know, real science, If it saves just one life it will be worth it!

Jody
Balduran is offline  
Old May 7, 2014, 08:16 PM   #40
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,827
Quote:
Stopping power, true or fiction?
The term is relevant to discussions of braking systems.

Considering that even gunshot wounds caused by shotguns and rifles may not immediately "stop" someone (or at least stop them from having the ability to continue volitional actions threatening imminent serious bodily injury or death), trying to apply the term to handguns and handgun ammunition probably isn't as useful as some folks might wish.

The use of scientifically conducted ballistic testing using a carefully controlled gel medium, and various intermediate barrier materials, is useful to some degree for helping in the selection of ammunition for specific tasks, but that's not the same thing as trying to determine "stopping power".

More time understanding and developing mindset ... learning to be aware of your surroundings ... developing a strong handgun skillset and supporting it with recurrent training & proper practice ... learning the laws involving the use of force, carrying a weapon, etc ... learning to properly maintain your chosen firearm(s) selected as a dedicated defensive weapon ... developing and maintaining sufficient physical capabilities to permit the safe & effective use of a firearm ... learning & practicing safe storage of firearms so children and other unauthorized persons can't gain access to them ... and probably some other considerations that don't occur to me off the top of my head at the moment, are all arguably more critical than the subject of "stopping power" and how it relates to handguns.

But that's just my thoughts ...
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer
fastbolt is offline  
Old May 7, 2014, 08:46 PM   #41
zombietactics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: Northern California
Posts: 447
Quote:
... More time understanding and developing mindset ... learning to be aware of your surroundings ... developing a strong handgun skillset and supporting it with recurrent training & proper practice ... learning the laws involving the use of force, carrying a weapon, etc ... learning to properly maintain your chosen firearm(s) selected as a dedicated defensive weapon ... developing and maintaining sufficient physical capabilities to permit the safe & effective use of a firearm ... learning & practicing safe storage of firearms so children and other unauthorized persons can't gain access to them ... and probably some other considerations that don't occur to me off the top of my head at the moment, are all arguably more critical than the subject of "stopping power" and how it relates to handguns. ...
+1 and QFT
__________________
__________________
NRA Certified Instructor • NRA Certified RSO • Certified Glock Armorer
zombietactics is offline  
Old May 7, 2014, 09:08 PM   #42
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,626
Quote:
Note that I said "22LR type" and ".50BMG type". I know full well that an actual 22LR soft lead round won't cut it. I'm not trying to be cute, so I apologize for the confusion.
A 22 LR type bullet is very soft lead.

Quote:
Consider that a 5.56/.223 round is the same diameter however, and hardly much heavier.
Diameter has nothing to do with it, bullet construction does.

Quote:
There are plenty of lead-nosed rounds which absolutely do not "splat" upon impact.
There are, but they are not 40 grains moving @ 3000 FPS

Quote:
A .50cal bullet travelling at pistol speeds will poke a very nice 12.5mm hole and not much else, besides over-penetrating like nobody's bidness. There's no doubt that it would be more effective than an actual 22LR at similar speeds.
A 750 grain 50 caliber bullet at the stated 1000 FPS would have roughly 3 times the momentum as a 230 grain 45 ACP, millions of people sweap by that one. And, yes I think you were trying to be cute, thats Ok it is hard for me not to be.

Quote:
I think we can all agree that the .45 ACP has the greatest potential to stop of all the defensivie calibers.
If that were the case we would not need, 9mm, 38 Special, 357 magnum, 40 S&W, 357 Sig, 44 Special, 10mm, etc....
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old May 7, 2014, 09:12 PM   #43
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,200
Hash (with poached eggs) is good. Re-hash -- not so much.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08817 seconds with 8 queries