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Old April 4, 2014, 10:31 PM   #26
wayneinFL
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Quote:
In my very limited experience:

1. The Barkers and Growlers are not the ones to worry about.

2. The Full Bore Never Slowed Up dog is the one coming for you.
Not an absolute. The barking, growling, pit a few doors down from me tried to eat the old lady across the street. She was laid up for 8 months.

The owner was incredulous that her sweet harmless dog had gotten out and hurt someone. It had a couple of standoffs with me, similar to the OP, and had trapped my wife and kids in the car before.
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Old April 4, 2014, 10:59 PM   #27
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The owner was incredulous that her sweet harmless dog had gotten out and hurt someone.
This is usually the story. People with pits, rotts, etc. often talk about how "sweet and affectionate" they are, and they may be... with their families. But let a stranger into the picture and it's a different story.

Reminds me of an old friend of mine who was a police dog trainer for several years. He was an absolute authority on large, aggressive dogs. He had 3 Rottweilers that were the sweetest old doggies you ever saw. His 2 year old son could crawl on top of them while they were taking naps and pull on their ears, and they'd just give that "doggie smile" and tolerate him.

BUT he said if a stranger ever came into that house uninvited, they would instantly tear him to shreds.

That's a point to keep in mind next time you hear somebody talking about how their Pit, Rott, or Dobe is "sweet and affectionate."
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Old April 4, 2014, 11:13 PM   #28
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Seems like every time I hear about how sweet and loving a PitBull or a Rottweiler can be, I hear about one of them turning on it's owners and either mauling them terribly or killing them outright.

It takes a very disturbed dog to kill a human. It takes some very stupid humans to keep one or more as a pet.
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Old April 4, 2014, 11:16 PM   #29
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its an animal. it does what it wants.
Everyone gets soooo surprised when their big dangerous pet decides to chew the babies face off on that rainy day when your watching a football game. Or it gets out and decides that the elderly person next door is responsible for its favorite chew toy being missing.

not too far from where i live there was a couple that had a pet raccoon. They thought it was sooooo darn cute. Then one day they were real surprised to learn it had crapped on their babys face and the kid ended up with a totally fried brain. from what i remember they cried more when animal control took the raccoon away for destruction then when the doctor told them their child would be an infant for life.
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Old April 5, 2014, 12:08 AM   #30
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Just tonight, on the Phoenix, AZ. local news, a woman tried to break up a fight between her two dogs. Two guesses as to the breeds.

Yup.......PitBull and a Rottweiler. She suffered serious injuries. One was so very bad, that one of her wrists was almost severed.

Supposedly, she refused to give permission to the authorities to go into her home to secure / take custody of the dogs.
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Old April 5, 2014, 07:29 AM   #31
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It takes a very disturbed dog to kill a human.
Not necessarily defending dogs here (I do like them, though), but dogs are nothing more than adolescent wolves. When a dog attacks it is just obeying an instinct, as they have no capability for abstract reasoning.

Having said, that, I wholeheartedly agree that an aggressive dog needs to be "dealt with."
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Old April 5, 2014, 10:10 AM   #32
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A couple of points regarding dogs:

1. Don't make any assumptions about a dog's breed. Chows never got the bad press of other breeds, but for several years running they were responsible for more emergency room visits than any other breed. They were cute little fuzz balls in pet stores, but the puppies grew into dogs, and many had very strong personalities that would not be crossed without biting.

2. Dogs usually regard their household members as pack members, and relate to them in the same way they do other dogs. A lot of behavior issues that veterinarians deal with are because people allow the dog a dominant position in the social structure. Things that we care little about and might regard as sharing, like who eats first, who gets to sit and lay where, and who goes through doorways and gates first, are seen by dogs as gestures of submission or dominance, depending on how they are handled.

3. In the same way, dogs will almost always see someone from outside their household as a foreigner to their pack. An outsider will always be regarded with at least a certain amount of suspicion. The result may be cowering, watchfulness, or outright attack, as determined by their personality and where they see themselves in their pack social structure. Their behavior can also be influenced by the behavior of the outsider - behaviors that are seen by the dog as submissive behavior or an attempt at dominance - but as mentioned by a previous post they are autonomous personalities over which no one ever has absolute control. IOW, a dog with a strong personality that feels his or her pack's territory to be challenged, or who feels his or her societal ranking challenged, may choose to attack no matter what you do.

4. When dogs are outside and running loose, their behavior changes markedly because they are with a new and different pack. The same dog that is perfectly sweet at home under the leadership of a two-legged pack leader may behave completely differently under the leadership of another pack, and may even be the leader of the other pack. Prey behavior that is not present in a stable environment with a ready food supply and a strong leader may manifest itself strongly with a new pack, even if the individuals in the pack have full bellies.
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Old April 5, 2014, 11:08 AM   #33
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This /\ /\ /\.
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Old April 5, 2014, 07:33 PM   #34
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If this turns into a thread about dogs, it will be locked. Threads about dogs are:
1. Off topic for TFL
2. Tend to degade rapidly into food-fights.
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Old April 5, 2014, 07:47 PM   #35
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A nieghbor of mine has a friend whose right hand looks like a baby dolls hand.

He had a male rott (from rescue!) and bought a female for breeding purposes.

He came home from work to find the female dead and the male attacked him.

He shoved his right hand down the dog's throat. That kept him alive until he could somehow fight his way into the bathroom and shut the door.

Thank God for cell phones. He called for help from there.

Harrowing.

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Old April 5, 2014, 09:13 PM   #36
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Quote:
If this turns into a thread about dogs, it will be locked. Threads about dogs are:
1. Off topic for TFL
2. Tend to degade rapidly into food-fights.
From the perspective of someone defending himself from a threat, a discussion about dogs can be very on topic.

I'm not talking about a x breed vs. y breed is better or safer argument, of course, but on how we determine a threat is occurring and how can we defend ourselves from the threat.

As an adult, I've been able to stand my ground and a dog that barks or charges at me has stopped. When I was a kid this NEVER happened. They all chased me down and tried to eat me.

I have a question for the dog people here. Do they deal with me differently because of the way I deal with dogs now, or is it that I'm just luckier now? Or is it a little bit of both?
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Old April 5, 2014, 10:05 PM   #37
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I have a question for the dog people here. Do they deal with me differently because of the way I deal with dogs now, or is it that I'm just luckier now? Or is it a little bit of both?
The only absolute sure way to know if a dog is all bark and no bite is to give him ample opportunity to bite. I'm not going to do that. I'll err on the side of "me not getting bit"..... face the dog, get the gun out, and shoot if it closes to contact.

To be sure, it's not the dog's fault: it's the owner's..... the dumb dog just had to pay for it's owner's negligence is all .....
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Old April 5, 2014, 10:46 PM   #38
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From the perspective of someone defending himself from a threat, a discussion about dogs can be very on topic.
And that's why it's still open. When it becomes a thread about how dogs are better than people (or not), which breed is more dangerous, in-depth discussion about the social structure of packs, or a list of dog-attack anecdotes which don't offer any potential for discussion in the context of tactics and traning, it will come to an end.
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Old April 6, 2014, 12:30 PM   #39
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The reality is that some dogs are absolute pussycats when with their human families ("packs"), but can become vicious killers when confronted by "strangers.".

At that point, as much as I love dogs, I would have no qualms about shooting ANY dog that was attacking me.

Now, based on several experiences of my son, who is a county sheriff here, it can often take more than one shot to dispatch an attacking dog. An attacking dog is in a blood rage, high on adrenalin. The only sure shot that is going to stop that attacking dog is a brain or spinal cord shot.

As you might guess, this can be mighty hard to accomplish when you are blindsided by an attacking dog and have only 2 or 3 seconds at the most to react, take aim and fire. My son recounted one instance where such circumstances occurred, and had to fire five shots from his .45 sidearm to stop an attacking pit bull.

Three seconds to realize that you are in imminent danger, reach for your weapon and attempt to make a brain shot (which, in the average dog, is approximately the size of a golf ball), is nearly impossible.
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Old April 6, 2014, 02:36 PM   #40
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With all due respect to the warnings that have been posted by the staff here I have to speak up for a couple of breeds of dog that have been maligned (although in my attempt to follow the rules I won't identify or discuss either of them). And I do so because the posts that identify them are included within this thread. Would any of you tolerate specific firearms being isolated and identified as "evil"?

A dog, or a gun, owned by an irresponsible person is a threat. The type of either of them should not be the issue. The owner bears responsibility for both.

And IMHO the poster raised a valid question about tactics that could have involved a big St. Bernard, or a mutt. Or even the bears that a couple of people here are so worried about.
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Old April 6, 2014, 02:56 PM   #41
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Would any of you tolerate specific firearms being isolated and identified as "evil"?
I dislike more than one brand of gun because they have a propensity to not work well ..... and have customer service that was just as hit and miss.

If a brand had the same kind of propensity to escape it's place of storage, of it's own volition, and kill or maim people, be they family members or members of the general public, I'd more than dislike them. Much more.

"Evil"? No. Dangerous? Certainly.
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Old April 6, 2014, 03:00 PM   #42
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But who should regulate either? And now I'm done on this topic.
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Old April 6, 2014, 11:50 PM   #43
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I think someone should be able to own a tiger if they keep it properly. I don't see where anyone has "maligned" any type of animal. Or proposed regulating it. I don't want to see this thread locked. Cut it out.

I will say that if a pit bull attacked me, I would handle that situation differently than is a chihuahua attacked me. The size, strength and jaw power of an animal has to figure into the equation somewhere.

Quote:
As you might guess, this can be mighty hard to accomplish when you are blindsided by an attacking dog and have only 2 or 3 seconds at the most to react, take aim and fire. My son recounted one instance where such circumstances occurred, and had to fire five shots from his .45 sidearm to stop an attacking pit bull.

Three seconds to realize that you are in imminent danger, reach for your weapon and attempt to make a brain shot (which, in the average dog, is approximately the size of a golf ball), is nearly impossible.
Animals are no doubt harder to stop than humans, in a way, because there is no psychological stop. They don't know what guns are. Don't know they've been shot. It's why deer or hogs still run after a good heart-lung shot.

So guns aren't perfect, but what is? And I'm asking in earnest- does someone have something better? Because I didn't grow up around large dogs, and know very little about them.

Pepper spray? Taser? Bark at them?
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Old April 7, 2014, 09:32 AM   #44
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So guns aren't perfect, but what is? And I'm asking in earnest- does someone have something better? Because I didn't grow up around large dogs, and know very little about them.
A gun is your best defense against an attacking dog.

Although this is way easier said than done, like any other situation, try to be aware of what's around you. For example, if I saw a dog who, when he saw me, pricked up his ears and started a staredown, I would immediately reach for my gun and "be ready." This, at least gives me a bit of an edge.

I realize you can't be 100% prepared in every situation, but, in those that you have some form of advanced warning, it pays to err on the side of caution.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a big dog to mess you up, either. I recently had an experience with my neighbor's heeler. The dog came up to me calmly, and I extended a fist for the dog to smell (never leave your fingers extended), the dog sniffed, then, fast as lightning, took a chunk out of the top of my hand. My fault, I guess, but it shows that dogs are unpredictable.
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Old April 7, 2014, 12:28 PM   #45
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This is really interesting. Many of us feel we can pull the trigger to protect our lives, but how many of us have actually faced this situation and know for certain that we can do this? I doubt very many.

OP, you experience is very thought provoking!

According to Dave Grossman, OP's reaction was very normal and healthy. In fact, most soldiers are very hesitant to pull the trigger in armed combat against their sworn enemy (!!!) - according to Grossman. His advice boils down to: (1) use humanoid targets (as realistic as possible); (2) use scenario training (with shoot-no-shoot methodology); (3) play realistic violent video games!! Ha! He calls this type of training "conditioning", where the instinct is developed to quickly and automatically respond to threat appropriately before fear response makes you hesitate.
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Old April 7, 2014, 01:28 PM   #46
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Last night I pulled up into my driveway, and as I stepped out of my car, a dog ran at me from the side. He stopped, tail wagging, and I spoke to him softly and evenly. Then, in a flash, he began barking and growling, lunging back and forth. This is really NOT an attack indicator, from what I've been told, but can lead to it - the dog who is absolutely motionless is the one who is about to slam the throttle down. I couldn't access my back seat where the rest of my work gear was located, but I do have one work related item on my belt, always - pepper spray. Puppy took off at HIGH speed after his nose membranes became saturated with some LE quality OC. Absolutely no permanent damage, no shots fired, and situation ended. The dog belongs to some less than savory members of society down the street, and I'm sure when he came home that the smell woke up some old memories.
If you live in an area where dogs are routinely or even only occasionally out and about, get a small keychain canister of OC. It doesn't have to be the latest romper stomper of gas - civilian grade gas works just fine on puppies. If you CAN get a can of Phantom...get some AND a quickly deploy-able mask for yourself - that stuff is FOUL!
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Old April 7, 2014, 02:04 PM   #47
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self defense starts with training your mind, then your body. if you aren't mentally prepared to defend yourself your body will freeze.
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Old April 7, 2014, 03:30 PM   #48
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Oh hell yeah, let's make owning a tiger real easy, so everyone can have one. Especially, if you have young kids and a new neighbor moves next door with an adult tiger.

Anyone remember this:http://www.latimes.com/nation/nation...#axzz2yEoZA5qD

Animals are animals, and nothing that you do to them will make them anything other than what they are.

Humans by their own very nature, are irresponsible beings. Animals are not. Animals have a reason and a purpose for doing what they do.

When humans keep large exotic (dangerous) animals as pets, it's a perfect setting for disaster.
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Old April 7, 2014, 03:34 PM   #49
stonewall50
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I hunt. My father is a veterinarian. I am able to kill, but I also respect game. Dogs are a creature very connected to humans. They are in every culture and have developed alongside them. I wonder if perhaps you didn't pull the trigger for another reason:

[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/zhM1xb6VbHg[/VIDEO]

Perhaps subconsciously you knew it was a fear reaction from the dog? In my time carrying concealed only one time was I 100% certain I was going to kill something and it was a dog. A massive mixed breed mostly pit bull going after a woman who was jogging. It was stopped short by a fence.

My honest to god advice though. If you really are worried about what to do...get around dogs more. See for yourself what a "biter" actually looks like. Dogs bite mainly out of fear and territorial action.

Also. NEVER show a dog fear. Keep face and and be very commanding.
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Old April 7, 2014, 03:40 PM   #50
stonewall50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armoredman View Post
Last night I pulled up into my driveway, and as I stepped out of my car, a dog ran at me from the side. He stopped, tail wagging, and I spoke to him softly and evenly. Then, in a flash, he began barking and growling, lunging back and forth. This is really NOT an attack indicator, from what I've been told, but can lead to it - the dog who is absolutely motionless is the one who is about to slam the throttle down. I couldn't access my back seat where the rest of my work gear was located, but I do have one work related item on my belt, always - pepper spray. Puppy took off at HIGH speed after his nose membranes became saturated with some LE quality OC. Absolutely no permanent damage, no shots fired, and situation ended. The dog belongs to some less than savory members of society down the street, and I'm sure when he came home that the smell woke up some old memories.

If you live in an area where dogs are routinely or even only occasionally out and about, get a small keychain canister of OC. It doesn't have to be the latest romper stomper of gas - civilian grade gas works just fine on puppies. If you CAN get a can of Phantom...get some AND a quickly deploy-able mask for yourself - that stuff is FOUL!

OC is a good thing to have. Had a friend mauled by 2 dogs and now she carries it any time she goes for a walk. Personally a .380 is my preferred choice during exercise, but the OC I keep in my truck is for animals.

One important thing to do is walk to spend more and more time around dogs just to learn them. My personal most feared animal is a horse lol. I hate the damn things. I can't trust and I can't read them. Cows I'm fine with. I just assume they are stupid and I'm good...but if I ever had to worry about wild horseys attacking me I would spend time around them first lol. Right now I just avoid their enclosures lol.
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