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Old March 15, 2014, 09:21 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Wyosmith
...The basis of law is simply that if an action is unlawful donning a uniform and/or badge is NOT an excuse.
If a shooter shot a man on the street who had only a cane and that shooter was not a cop what do you think the county prosecutor would do?
Sad as it is, that’s exactly what the prosecutor should do.

Would you think the words "I was afraid" would hold water?

Fear and the control of fear is the job...
Wyosmith said it just right. Being a cop is a tough job. I'm sure. I know I couldn't do it. Some have the mettle & temperament to be a cop but this type of person is really few & far between to find. The high demand therefore fills the police ranks with some people that have a sense of exemption from the law & then puts a gun on their hip all day.

Indeed I feel bad for the cop. He never should have been there. He obviously was put in the wrong job as demonstrated by his actions. Six shots sprayed down the highway(?) Watch the video & look at the cars going by as you hear the shots. Sounds like he had a revolver & just emptied it. Watching the video, it looks like if the vet had a shotgun he could still have shot the cop.

If there was not a dash cam this incident definitely would have had a different spin.
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Old March 15, 2014, 09:45 AM   #27
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First, let's not allow this thread to degenerate into a cop-bashing thread. Discussing how to handle a traffic stop, including whatever we know (or think we know) about a police officer's expectations, anticipated reactions, etc. However, if it does degenerate into cop-bashing, this thread will be closed.

Second, and related to the first point, for those who CC, knowing how to handle interactions with the police is very, very important. It's important, not only for those instances when a CC-er has had to shoot someone in SD, but also for more mundane interactions with the police. I've been asked on several occasions how to handle something like a traffic stop, and one of the bigger points that I like to make is: To a police officer, there's a world of difference between:
(a) "Good evening, officer. Here's my DL, my insurance, registration and my CCL. I do have a pistol. It's in a holster on my right hip." and
(b) "I'VEGOTAGUN!!!"

Stay calm. Don't make any sudden moves. If there's one person that day that you don't want to surprise, it's that officer. If you're in a jx that requires you to inform, do so as soon as you can.

I know a lawyer here in town who is a former police officer. He tells a story of being stopped and asked for his registration and insurance. Those documents were in his console, as was the pistol that he'd carried as a duty weapon. The exchange went something like this:
Attorney: Good evening, officer.
Officer: Evenin'. Driver's license, registration and proof of insurance, please.
A: Here's my DL and my CHCL.
O: Registration and proof of insurance?
A: Well, those are in my console.
O: Why don't you get them out?
A: You know, I'd really like to, but I'm not going in that console, not for nothing.
O: Why not?
A: Because there's a full-sized duty weapon in there, loaded, and I don't want you to think I'm reaching for a weapon. Write me a ticket if you have to. That's OK.

As I understand the story, the lawyer got a ticket for an improper left turn, or some such, but the officer declined to write a ticket for failing to present registration and insurance.
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some.
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Old March 15, 2014, 09:49 AM   #28
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Most cops are well-intentioned and professional, but there are a few who, for a variety of reasons (training, fear, etc), behave otherwise. I have a hearing deficit, and I have had an officer get quite testy with me when I was momentarily confused and had to ask her to repeat a question. It was a simple hearing issue which she took as belligerence. Even after I explained my hearing problem, she remained very hostile, and I have the feeling that it was the difference between a warning and a ticket. I have a certain amount of fear that another officer will take a failure to respond to an order as a hostile act.

There seems to be an escalating climate of fear among law officers, which, even though understandable, is causing some incidents that officers later regret. I am not sure what solution there is to that, though, because LEOs have every reason to want to go home to their families at the end of shift.
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Old March 15, 2014, 10:46 AM   #29
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Reference my friend from N-Ireland, I am very familiar with the troubles.
I left Liverpool in 1965, age 30.
A great friend of mine, Des. was in Security in Toronto, worked were I lived.

He spent 15 years in Royal Marines, 7 in the RUC. Then one day said enough, off to Canada.

I have lived in Florida for over ten years, not been stopped much, the one that fits in here... I was working undercover, possible an Ex employee would return, and target the administrator (Medical Facility) We did 30 days inside, and thirty outside, parked in various locations.

Checked in every AM with OPD Dispatch. Our Company, vehicle, we are in, armed, etc. A couple of times the message was not passed on!

Heading home, lights behind, Blue and Red, I pulled to right, both windows open, engine off, keys on dash, hands at ten to 4, my partner, hands on knees.

"Good evening Officer" Her, big smile (Gorgeous lady) "You have been stopped B/4?" "I used to teach Vehicle stops ma'am"

Then explained, the job, our Company.

"Stay Safe", from me, from her, off we went.

Reference the type of Police Officer we hire? Educated, from good homes, PC savvy, a lot with degrees, no criminal convictions, ETC.

I just described a non hard case! On average, never been in a fight as an adult! Perceived trouble, gun out! Close with subject? Last thing on their minds.
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Old March 15, 2014, 11:16 AM   #30
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None that I am aware of, why do you think that is. ?
That is a sociological and cutural issue. But the fact remains it is a more dangerous job here than there.

To the OP as Spats said we all know how we are supposed to act during a traffic stop. We all know the cop is on edge. Why then escalate the situation?
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Old March 15, 2014, 11:32 AM   #31
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I could only read about 2/3 of this thread. For a gun forum there are some pretty ignorant things said here.

As a retired LEO, I can tell you there are many reasons we do what we do.

# 1 six shots does not surprise me. When on the range you don't have anyone shooting at you unless you turn off the line with your weapon, then as a range safety I would have to draw and possibly fire on you. When you are practicing either in the trailer with the video or on a live fire range, you are much more relaxed. when the adrenaline is pumping your trigger finger will tend to pull more and way before you intend for it.

#2 There is never a reason to get out of your car when stopped until or unless instructed by the arresting officer. Yes you heard me arresting officer. You are being detained and all the ticket is, is a promise on your part to comply, or if you refuse to comply you will be hauled in.

#3 I can not think of one officer I have ever met or worked with, which is thousands, that don't want to protect and serve first. I can't think of one single one that would not do what ever needed to be done to save a civilian.

#4 Our LEO don't get nearly the respect they desirve! Unlike Vets they are just cast aside with no help for PTSD or anything else out there. Once retired, you are just retired.

Would it have changed things if the Vet was not a vet, but an OG (Original Gangster) and when he pulled the cane it was a cane gun? Of course it would. The reason play guns have an orange tip is so that one can determine the difference between them and the real thing.

Yes you can find incidents of shootings where the LEO felt he was in danger and shot and as for dogs, I would shoot one in a heart beat if it was showing aggressive behavior. I would do it in my own neighborhood. I currently work as an underground utility locator and have to go into people's back yards. When it comes to dogs, I don't care how friendly you say your dog is, put it away or I will not enter! If I don't enter, animal control will be called and your dog will go to jail.

So, gun control is not the answer, video cameras are not the answer. personal accountability is. A video camera will help when a bad LEO slips through.

Lastly what nobody has taken into consideration while slamming LEO, is they all go through psychological evaluations, physical evaluations, and intense background checks among other things just to get the job. Then after an incident like this they go through many things including psychological evaluations before being allowed back on the streets. Some never return, this is as traumatic to them as it is to anyone else! These guys are human. Mistakes are made. You can not stop that.

As for the UK, I frankly know much and do not travel there as I don't feel safe there, the LEO not having firearms and all. They can not protect me or themselves from the bad guys who even there still get firearms! Yes even in the most restrictive gun controlled areas of this globe the bad guys still get firearms. Not just the ones we can buy off the shelf either.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Thomas Jefferson
It matters not what color the cat is, but that the cat gets the mouse. - Some Asian
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Old March 15, 2014, 11:58 AM   #32
Frank Ettin
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This thread some time ago stopped being about Tactics & Training and became one about how folks feel about cops.

That's not what we discuss here.
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
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