The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 14, 2014, 02:36 PM   #1
leadcounsel
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 2,119
How not to handle a traffic stop.

Anyone else see this?

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/03/1213...s-vietnam-vet/

Elderly Vietnam Vet stopped at night or expired tags, and got out of the vehicle and then reached back in for a long object. Deputy yelled instructions and immediately fired, hitting him 1 time in 6 shots.

What did the vet have? He had a cane, which the deputy mistook for a long gun.

Lesson: when the cops stop you, adrenaline is high. Sit in your vehicle, keep your hands visible, and don't make any sudden or dangerous movements. DO NOT get out, do not go reaching for objects in the glove box or under the seat, and for heavens sake don't grab something that looks like a handgun or shotgun!
leadcounsel is offline  
Old March 14, 2014, 03:02 PM   #2
mfreem08
Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2012
Posts: 48
Yeah, here in Charlotte we have heard lots about it. Although nothing more than what's in the video. The Sheriff sounds like he's standing behind his deputy. Sheriff Bryant is quoted as saying "I would have had to take the same action he did".
I feel for the officer but like his brother told him, you did what you had to.
mfreem08 is offline  
Old March 14, 2014, 04:26 PM   #3
Hiker 1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 596
Generally I think today's cops are often too trigger-happy, but it does look like the old gent pulled a long gun and pointed it right at the cop.
Hiker 1 is offline  
Old March 14, 2014, 04:31 PM   #4
Madcap_Magician
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2009
Location: MN
Posts: 668
And for God's sake don't get out of the damn vehicle.
Madcap_Magician is offline  
Old March 14, 2014, 05:11 PM   #5
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,788
Is it a good enough reason to for the police to shoot someone because they think they have a firearm.

Quote:
DO NOT get out, do not go reaching for objects in the glove box or under the seat, and for heavens sake don't grab something that looks like a handgun or shotgun
Probably good advice, but maybe the police need some advice as well. It makes me question how the police in the UK manage to stop hundreds of people every day, and they are unarmed. You could jump out of a car here if you were stopped by the police, and lift a walking stick and point it at them without fear of being shot. Just a thought.

Last edited by manta49; March 14, 2014 at 05:41 PM.
manta49 is offline  
Old March 14, 2014, 07:13 PM   #6
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,634
I would say someone had a bit too much coffee that night.


Quote:
It makes me question how the police in the UK manage to stop hundreds of people every day, and they are unarmed. You could jump out of a car here if you were stopped by the police, and lift a walking stick and point it at them without fear of being shot. Just a thought.
You point to one incident and paint them all with the same brush? There are tens of thousands of traffic stops a day in the US that happen without incident or drama. Some traffic cops I know used to do 100 traffic stops a shift.

I would also say that the expectation for anyone to be armed in the UK is nil since the ownership of anything resembling a firearm is almost unheard of these days.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old March 14, 2014, 07:27 PM   #7
Garycw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2011
Location: Ohio-Kentucky - florida
Posts: 1,221
It's easy to second guess why he got out of car, but it is a bad idea as is not keeping hands visible. Thank goodness deputy was a bad shot.
Garycw is offline  
Old March 14, 2014, 07:49 PM   #8
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,788
Quote:
I would also say that the expectation for anyone to be armed in the UK is nil since the ownership of anything resembling a firearm is almost unheard of these days.
That sounds like an argument for gun control, Are you saying less firearms less shootings police and civilians. Fortunately you are ill informed about firearms ownership in the UK the last time I looks I had four handguns a shotgun and two rifles.

Quote:
You point to one incident and paint them all with the same brush? There are tens of thousands of traffic stops a day in the US that happen without incident or drama. Some traffic cops I know used to do 100 traffic stops a shift.
Would they be happy and feel safe enough to do all them traffic stops unarmed. ?

Last edited by manta49; March 14, 2014 at 07:59 PM.
manta49 is offline  
Old March 14, 2014, 09:33 PM   #9
DoubleDeuce 1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2013
Posts: 101
Extremely unfortunate incident. I watched the video and saw the glint of light along the shaft of the cane. For the briefest of moments it looked liike it could be the barrel of a long gun. Kind of a tough call. I feel sorry for the officer, and I am very glad for the old gent it was not more serious.
DoubleDeuce 1 is offline  
Old March 14, 2014, 10:02 PM   #10
DT Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 846
It's apparently now OK for any police officer who gets a bit scared to rip off several (non-aimed) rounds at a citizen, with only the merest suspicion of the presence of a weapon required for justification.

Watch it again-the 'weapon' never so much as gets raised near a firing position. And while we live in a world with rifles, we also live in a world with deaf old men who need canes to walk, and who haven't been through the 'what to do to keep a hyper-paranoid cop from shooting you at a traffic stop' training we must all have gone through.


I would love to see the 'shoot/don't shoot' scores this ace posted in the academy; I'm guessing the department had to raise its ammo budget for the number of rounds he fired.


Larry
__________________
He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast.

Government, Anarchy and Chaos
DT Guy is offline  
Old March 14, 2014, 11:16 PM   #11
Hiker 1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 596
You point to one incident and paint them all with the same brush?

Not one incident. Go to youtube and search for videos of cops shooting unarmed citizens. Dogs get shot all the time just for barking and "lunging" at cops.

Last month a boy in Georgia was shot dead while holding a Wii remote.
In California this past October a boy was shot dead holding an airsoft gun.
In January of this year, Arizona cops shot and killed an unarmed man with his hands in the air: http://www.sott.net/article/272730-A...nds-in-the-air

The police in this country are completely out of control.
Hiker 1 is offline  
Old March 14, 2014, 11:19 PM   #12
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 2,631
I feel bad for the vet and the cop both, but feelings can't be allowed to cloud the issue.
The basis of law is simply that if an action is unlawful donning a uniform and/or badge is NOT an excuse.
If a shooter shot a man on the street who had only a cane and that shooter was not a cop what do you think the county prosecutor would do?
Sad as it is, that’s exactly what the prosecutor should do.

Would you think the words "I was afraid" would hold water?

Fear and the control of fear is the job. Having been a cop myself I know about these things, and I feel a deep sorrow for the cop, but if this kind of thing is allowed it's an open door for bad cops to do the same thing for evil reasons.
Wyosmith is offline  
Old March 14, 2014, 11:28 PM   #13
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,634
Quote:
That sounds like an argument for gun control, Are you saying less firearms less shootings police and civilians.
If there were no weapons present none could be used. Nothing about gun control. I do not support that.

Quote:
Fortunately you are ill informed about firearms ownership in the UK the last time I looks I had four handguns a shotgun and two rifles.
I have been wrong before

Quote:
Would they be happy and feel safe enough to do all them traffic stops unarmed. ?
Nope. How many cops in the UK have been shot and killed on traffic stops in the last 10 years?
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old March 14, 2014, 11:47 PM   #14
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,634
Quote:
Last month a boy in Georgia was shot dead while holding a Wii remote.
In California this past October a boy was shot dead holding an airsoft gun.
In January of this year, Arizona cops shot and killed an unarmed man with his hands in the air: http://www.sott.net/article/272730-A...nds-in-the-air
The one with the airsoft had removed the orange tip and pointed it at officers.
Ok, so of the hundreds of thousands of cops in this country you cite 3 shootings, one of which was at the very least marginal. So 2-3 bad shoots in 2 years, I do not call that out of control by any stretch of the imagination.

Walk a mile in my shoes.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old March 15, 2014, 12:16 AM   #16
DoubleDeuce 1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2013
Posts: 101
Well said Nanuk. There seem to be a lot of those who might have never walked in those boots, but are quick to condemn. In a country of 330 million, a couple of shootings, good, bad or marginal is not what I would consider constituting "out of control" police. On the contrary I would say that indicates a lot of control and restraint on the part of police. When humans are involved, there are bound to be mistakes.

I would guess it is safe to say nobody is perfect. Nobody. It was an unfortunate encounter for all involved.
DoubleDeuce 1 is offline  
Old March 15, 2014, 03:00 AM   #17
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
Bodycams; LE....

The metro PD in my area is finally going to have patrol officers wearing new "body-cam" DV systems.
The out-going police chief told the local media it was part of a "pilot program".
I think the mayor & city council were fed up with the dozens and dozens of civil lawsuits re: misconduct, fraud, excessive force, etc.
If I were a state trooper or sworn officer Id welcome a DV camera system.
I'd be 100% in my ability & the audio/video would document what Id see & face everyday on the job.
Some cops do abuse their authority or use excessive force. Their - attitudes & problems reflect directly on the agency. The PDs are then mandated to use DV systems & dashboard cameras to avoid labor disputes/discrimination complaints etc.

Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old March 15, 2014, 06:43 AM   #18
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,608
Reference the unarmed Police in Northern Ireland? Are not the RUC Armed?
Or whatever they are called now?

The firearms Instructor is on the hook for this one!
Brit is offline  
Old March 15, 2014, 07:13 AM   #19
thump_rrr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2010
Posts: 384
Signal your intention to pull over as soon as you see the flashing lights.
Pull over as far as you can at a safe location.
Turn on the interior lights if it is dark out.
Roll down the drivers window or all windows if they are heavily tinted.
Turn off the vehicle.
Keep your hands visible preferably on the wheel and wait for the officer.

These are simple things that can be done to minimize the risk of getting shot at a traffic stop because the officer can clearly see into the vehicle.

The minute somebody steps out of a vehicle at a traffic stop the officer has to try and figure out in fractions of a second what the intentions of the driver are.

Not obeying commands is the second thing the get did wrong.
Reaching for an object is the 3rd thing the get did wrong.

It was not a single error on the part of the vet that put in motion the shooting but a series of events.

In the deputy's mind the next thing to come was a shotgun blast.
Although I feel very bad for the vet I do feel that the officer believed his life was in imminent danger which is why he fired.

Isn't rule #1 to go home at the end of your shift?
thump_rrr is offline  
Old March 15, 2014, 07:22 AM   #20
DT Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 846
Quote:
Isn't rule #1 to go home at the end of your shift?

It seems to be, nowadays. It used to be 'serve and protect.' If the rules are that the police can preemptively shoot anyone they simply believe might be about to become a threat, I suppose this was justifiable.

If the cop were not a cop, but a citizen, would the 'thin blue line' be so quick to defend him? What I saw was a poorly trained, frightened cop who made an enormous mistake; no substantive verbal commands, no use of preclusion, poor 'weapon' recognition and, eventually, poor shooting skills (thankfully.)

Is it really necessary for other police to defend this mistake? Has the 'professional brotherhood' remained that strong, that police can't admit another cop did something wrong? It seems so-anyone who doesn't consider this a mistake obviously has a secondary agenda, IMHO.

Larry
__________________
He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast.

Government, Anarchy and Chaos
DT Guy is offline  
Old March 15, 2014, 07:48 AM   #21
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,788
Quote:
Reference the unarmed Police in Northern Ireland? Are not the RUC Armed?
Or whatever they are called now?
They are called the PSNI and they are armed because they were targeted by a well armed terrorist group. They managed to murder over 300 of them so they have every reason to be wary. There are around 10,000 officers here and approximately 861,000 in America. So that would equate if my maths is correct to around 2,400 dead officers if it happened in America. But I have never seen them stopping a car with weapon drawn, or heard of them shooting someone with a walking stick in N Ireland.

Quote:
Nope. How many cops in the UK have been shot and killed on traffic stops in the last 10 years?
None that I am aware of, why do you think that is. ?
manta49 is offline  
Old March 15, 2014, 08:26 AM   #22
B.N.Real
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Posts: 4,092
There is a video from the dashcam of a police officer who was shot dead by an older man (60ish) who got out of his car before the officer ever got a chance to get out of his car.

That driver got right out with a AR-15 and killed the officer right through his front car windshield.

The driver was later apprehended and the reasons for his killing the officer are too stupid to write here.

Police officers today don't know what they are going to come up against or when the Grim Reaper has a bad present waiting for them to kill them.

In a combat situation you only have a scant few seconds until you are dead.

Knowing this, as citizens, we should do our part by showing the officers the due respect they deserve by simply waiting IN THE CAR until they tell us why we were pulled over and treating them like people because they are just like you and me, people.

We really do need to have a tv campaign that tells the public the right way to deal with a traffic stop.

-Pull over as soon as it is safe.

-Stay in your car, hands on your steering wheel.

-When the officer comes to your car and asks you too,roll down your window.

-Actually listen to what the officer has to say.

-Do what he says.

-Either go on your way warned or sign the ticket.

And both of you have a nice day.

It ain't rocket science.

And if you were doing thirty over the speed limit or driving drunk, expect to get a ticket and likely arrested.

Just be man enough to stop and not make it all a thousand times worse by running or running your mouth.

JUST PULL OVER, IT'S WAY CHEAPER THEN RUNNING.
B.N.Real is offline  
Old March 15, 2014, 08:44 AM   #23
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2012
Posts: 755
Back in the older generations day, they got out of their vehicle in this area,NC,SC... My father, 74, was always taught to step out when pulled over. Just something that changed with the times. I am not going to get into what the man and the officer done. It is only an opinion. But there are no laws that state to remain in your vehicle. On the police officers behalf, it looked like a firearm for between 1-2 seconds.. Tough call.


I know that all around our nation police are heard about "mistakenly shooting a boy who answered his door with a Wii controller" and other cases. Just glad the man is ok..
__________________
" The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to
keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect
themselves against tyranny in Government.
..." - Thomas Jefferson
CharlieDeltaJuliet is offline  
Old March 15, 2014, 08:53 AM   #24
Ruger480
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2013
Location: Central Iowa
Posts: 720
Quote:
I feel bad for the vet and the cop both, but feelings can't be allowed to cloud the issue.
The basis of law is simply that if an action is unlawful donning a uniform and/or badge is NOT an excuse.
If a shooter shot a man on the street who had only a cane and that shooter was not a cop what do you think the county prosecutor would do?
Sad as it is, that’s exactly what the prosecutor should do.

Would you think the words "I was afraid" would hold water?

Fear and the control of fear is the job. Having been a cop myself I know about these things, and I feel a deep sorrow for the cop, but if this kind of thing is allowed it's an open door for bad cops to do the same thing for evil reasons
I agree with this one hundred percent. For the DA to not treat it as such only adds to the credence that LEOs are above the law. Second, I noticed there are a lot of people who are quick to point out what they perceive to be wrong moves by the old man and seem to be just as quick to defend the actions of the LEO.

What ever happened to positive ID of your target?
When I was in a spec ops unit in the army, they would court martial you for shooting a friendly. I'm not saying he needs to serve time but I think more than 2 weeks paid leave while the situation is investigated is not sufficient.

Last edited by Ruger480; March 15, 2014 at 11:06 AM.
Ruger480 is offline  
Old March 15, 2014, 09:12 AM   #25
SamNavy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 28, 2011
Location: Kauai, HI
Posts: 421
If you think incidents like this old man getting killed while reaching for his cane are isolated, you're living in a bubble. While I don't think it's fair to say, "cops in this country are out of control", I do think it's well within accurate to say that the entirety of professional law enforcement in this country needs an immediate and complete overhaul on it's use of deadly force standards and de-escalation training.

The number of websites dedicated to exposing police brutality will come as a surprise to some... a lot of you are either completely in the dark about the sheer amount of it, or simply don't want to hear it.
http://www.copblock.org/
http://www.policebrutality.info/
http://www.policemisconduct.net/
http://policecrimes.com/
...google will show you a dozens if not a few hundred more.

In a few years, body-cams will be standard field equipment for all police officers. I've been following the trend closely, and it's about damn time.

You can google "rialto police cameras"... this city in Cali is the poster-place for the effectiveness of mandatory body-cams on all officers:
In the first year after the cameras were introduced here in February 2012, the number of complaints filed against officers fell by 88 percent compared with the previous 12 months. Use of force by officers fell by almost 60 percent over the same period.

I'd venture a guess that the only thing currently standing in the way of immediate implementation across the country are the police unions... but that will change.
SamNavy is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14696 seconds with 8 queries