The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 12, 2014, 09:26 AM   #26
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,240
The blade does not need to be " lethal" any more then the pistol does to be an effective defensive tool

The idea that my pistol can kill, therefor its an appropriate defensive caliber is FLAWED.

The same holds true for the knife. The basic philosophy on edged weapon wounds if they fall into 2 categories. Timers and switches

A timer is a wound inflected that will cause effect over a time period. Think blood loss as a good example. A good slice to the brachial artery will start things leaking nicely, but will NOT instantly incapacitate someone but may be lethal an a cpl minutes

A cut flexor tendon switches off the ability to close the hand, instantly effecting that appendage, but is prob NOT lethal (assuming medical care can be given in a reasonable amount of time)

It bothers me that people still equate lethality with stopping the attack. Lots of people have been shot/stabbed/thrown off buildings and lived. The KEY is to stop the attack. If the attacker dies as a result. Thats unfortunate, but **it happens

With an edged weapon the target areas that immediately effect the ability to attack are actually less likely to lead to death of the attacker. Tendon cuts are a perfect example.
Sharkbite is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 09:27 AM   #27
Skadoosh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2010
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 2,015
Quote:
The 21 foot rule is a MYTH, I can prove it to anyone who wishes to dispute it.

You're so missing my point. A live demonstration is not like a real life scenario. The adrenaline is flowing and they are somewhat prepared, especially if they are standing in front of the opponent, the instructor and a room full of classmates. Take those same women who are able to prove your theory out of that ARTIFICIAL environment and place them in a more REALISTIC environment like a busy parking lot with an arm load of groceries and a crying 5 year old in tow...and I bet that you will see a much different reaction/response time.
__________________
NRA Life Member
USN Retired

Last edited by Skadoosh; March 12, 2014 at 09:39 AM. Reason: insertion of relavent quotation
Skadoosh is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 09:44 AM   #28
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,052
Sir:

There is a difference between training and instruction.

Instruction tells you what to do.

Training is taking that instruction and practicing until an act can be preformed without thinking, while under stress, while scared to death. The idea is to react to a threat without thinking.

In one two hour class, I can give you instructions on what to do when threatened. That means nothing, you can get that from a book.

However if you train the same 2 hours every week from the 1st of Nov to the middle of May, that "instruction becomes second nature".

Training is nothing more then instilling habits. We have natural habit when confronted with a threat. We flee, we throw our hand up to protect our face, we scream, etc. etc.

With instruction followed by extensive training, we can develop the habit of producing a defensive weapon as a habit of responding to a threat.

There are many things that can be used as a defensive weapon. I believe the gun is best, as it can be used as defense for a 100 lb lady against a 200 lb. attacker. Or an 80 year old lady against a youth ( I do have am 82 year old lady in my class and she's getting pretty good).

With instruction applied with extensive, repetitive training we can develop habits allowing us to respond without thinking while overwhelmed with fear and stress.

Our soldiers do it every day in combat.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 10:12 AM   #29
Skadoosh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2010
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 2,015
But we aren't talking about soldiers who train everyday, are we? Just how extensive is the training you offer?

When there is no real imminent threat continually honing an average citizen's situational awareness, I would argue that no matter how repetitive your training may be, the average student will be very hard pressed not fail the Tueller drill not long after leaving your facility.
__________________
NRA Life Member
USN Retired
Skadoosh is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 10:16 AM   #30
Madcap_Magician
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2009
Location: MN
Posts: 668
If carried solely for defense or as backup, then yes. However, mine is primarily used for utility tasks, so it stays in this right-handed person's right pocket.
Madcap_Magician is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 10:58 AM   #31
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,052
Quote:
But we aren't talking about soldiers who train everyday, are we? Just how extensive is the training you offer?

When there is no real imminent threat continually honing an average citizen's situational awareness, I would argue that no matter how repetitive your training may be, the average student will be very hard pressed not fail the Tueller drill not long after leaving your facility.
Easy to say, but its hard to convince you unless you are willing to observe these ladies.

The problem here and on the street is people see a lady and automatically think they are helpless.

If one would only watch/read the news you'll see that is often fatal mistake.

Lets assume one is fast and from a dead stop reach 10 mph (14.7 fps) in 21 feet.

time while acceleration is V1+V2 / 2 or 0 fps + 14.7 fps / 2 = 7.35 fps

21/7.35 is 2.857 seconds. So basically using the extreme max speed, it would take a person nearly 3 seconds to cover 21 feet.

I really doubt the average bandit can accelerate to 10 mph in 21 feet. But I know these ladies can draw and shoot in less then 3 seconds.

This leads me to accept the theory of "don't take a knife to a gun fight" over the theory of the 21 foot rule.

But again, all you have to do is watch these house wives, ranging from age 18 to 80 to see for your self.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 11:36 AM   #32
Dragline45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2010
Posts: 3,511
I don't always carry a knife when I carry, but when I do it's a fixed blade in a kydex sheath that you can either carry IWB or pop the clip off and stick in a pocket. I don't mess with folders, with the fixed blade I can quickly draw from the pocket or IWB with no fumbling.
Dragline45 is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 02:49 PM   #33
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,180
Quote:
Quote:
I read somewhere that if a well trained
guy with a knife gets within (I can't remember)
16 or 26 feet of you and your gun-you have troubles.

Big Trouble...........
Only if you haven't drawn, which you should probably rectify.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 02:58 PM   #34
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,180
Quote:
In the movies you know whats about to happen, in real life you wake up (not always) and ask what happned. If you live with a knife and a gun out of necessity your address is wrong. Then there is Uhaul. I carry a knife because it's a tool and I don't bite apples since I got the bridge, I cut them up. I like one handed knives because they only require one hand. Last thought: If you had ever been in a knife fight you would do whatever it takes to prevent another one. Being ready for anything is impossible.
Eldermike has the way of it.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 03:02 PM   #35
themalicious0ne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2012
Location: Oconomowoc, WI
Posts: 345
I was told by an instructor, when I woked armed, that my knife that I carried on duty was in a very good spot. I just placed it on my right side in front of my holster at maybe the 2-3 O'clock position. It was a K-Bar TDI, which is a small angled knife. He told me that if someone tried to grab my gun from behind, I would hopefully have quick enough time feeling the retention from my holster to unsheath this small knife and hopefully cut their hand or wrist. If I were to be grappling for the gun or keeping it holstered with my right hand, given the angle of the knife, I could sort of crossdraw it that way and use it the same. The advice made sense. Im not sure if this is the most effective way, but it cant hurt.
themalicious0ne is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 03:03 PM   #36
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,180
Quote:
Quote:
[B]Its called the "21 foot rule" which is the biggest myth since the internet came out.
I demonstrate this (with rubber knives and blue training guns) in my ladies firearms SD class.

Starting at 21 feet the knife guy charges the lady with a gun. Even the slowest lady could beat the knife guy.

Draw, shoot and sidestep = gunman wins.

It takes years and years of training and a bit of physical ability to be good with a knife.

Not so much with a firearm at normal SD distance, or the distance a knife would be a threat. They don't call the gun the "equalizer' for nothing.


You cant be serious. Those same ladies would likely do far worse in their NATURAL HABITAT than in the confines of YOUR DEMONSTRATION where they have an idea of what is coming and what specifically they must do. I would love to see how they fare as they are fishing for their car remote in a busy Walmart parking lot or as they hold the door for a little old lady.

And your assertion that it takes years of training to be good with a knife is ridiculous. A knife is simple tool. Even a novice can be lethal.
1. I'd much rather meet some fool who had a knife with a gun then another knife.

2. The logical extension of your argument is that BG's with knives are killing machines that the average GG can't win against. Er...no. Somehow the cops manage to deal with knife guys quite well, else they'd be walking around with broadswords no?

3. Having said that, I repsect that they CAN be lethal at that distance and you should react accordingly.

Last edited by zincwarrior; March 12, 2014 at 03:16 PM.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 03:15 PM   #37
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,672
Early in my LE career, actually I was 18 and 19 as an Army MP I was stabbed or cut 3 times. All three were "our" guys. I decided then and there the next person to threaten me with a knife was gonna get shot. Almost shot a GI a few weeks later. I don't care if he is 50 feet away, if he approaches me in a threatening manner with a knife or any weapon i am going to shoot.

As far as keeping one available for both hands? I am not that coordinated.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 04:12 PM   #38
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,052
Quote:
If you live with a knife and a gun out of necessity your address is wrong.
There is no safe place to move in this world, you're fooling your self if you think there is.

One would think Rural Wyoming is about as safe you could find.

Wright WY 15 year old shoots and kills a guy he saw abducting a neighbor lady.

North of Cody WY in a gated community two young adults wanted a car for a trip to Denver. They killed three in a home invasion to gain the keys to the car.

I could go on. Read the papers/watch the news, there is no safe place.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 04:43 PM   #39
doofus47
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2010
Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent
Posts: 2,313
I carry my knife in my left pocket with the assumption that if the aggressor actually gets a hand on my right arm my free left hand could reach for the blade, if that was more expedient than an open hand strike.

Incidentally, I found that the back of my pocket keeps my knife blade closed if the lock comes off. Nothing more aggravating than scratching yourself with your own knife point.
__________________
I'm right about the metric system 3/4 of the time.
doofus47 is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 05:40 PM   #40
leadcounsel
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 2,119
Seems to me that the distance of lethality with a knife has more to do with initiative than distance.

If the knife person has surprise, then they can likely cover and strike... but if the gun person knows the attack is coming, they can likely draw and shoot in time.

The OP is not however asking about this. His question has nothing to do with it, actually.

He's asking about where to carry his knife (strong or weakside) to aid in defending against an attacker trying to get the OPs gun.
leadcounsel is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 06:26 PM   #41
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,961
We would do well to remember that the "21ft Rule" is based on averages from tests with duty holsters from a few years ago. Some will beat the clock, some won't. That was just where the average was for those tests. It is a reasonable estimation, not a hard and fast rule.

I usually carry a knife on my strong side, as it is more for utility than defense. My light goes in the off-hand pocket.
raimius is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 06:29 PM   #42
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
Post #35, shock, blood loss....

I agree 100% with post #35.
As posted, if you deploy a sharp knife like a TDI KaBar, a fixed blade or a small folder then slash or cut your attacker, the injury or blood loss might cause them to go into shock or become more defensive.
Unless the have a high level of adrenalin or are intoxicated(bath salts, PCP, acid, etc), the sight of a serious wound will allow you to over-power them & either get away or detain them.
For safety & universal precautions I would be careful handcuffing a wounded subject. They might have a disease(hepatitis, HIV, etc).
Knife & stab wounds can cause large amounts of blood loss quickly.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 06:49 PM   #43
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by raimius
We would do well to remember that the "21ft Rule" is based on averages from tests with duty holsters from a few years ago....
Again folks obstinately refuse to understand the real meaning of the Tueller data (and it is not a "rule").

The point Tueller was trying to make with his experiments is that an assailant 21(+/-) feet away with a contact weapon needs to be taken seriously as a threat. You need to take him seriously as a threat because (1) he can cover the distance between you and him in a short time; and (2) it will take you a roughly comparable amount of time to draw and fire your gun.

If you're especially fast and accurate or can buy yourself a bit of time by "getting off the 'x'", that will be good for you. If the assailant is especially quick and agile, that will be bad for you. The outcome will depend on how all the factors add up.

But the bottom line will still be the the guy across the room making threats with a knife in his hand is a credible threat.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 08:00 PM   #44
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
Massad Ayoob....

Tactics trainer & legal use of force expert: Massad Ayoob once documented a demonstration by a top knife/edged weapon expert named Marsilla Brasallia(check correct spelling).
She showed Mas & a class how she could use a sharp blade to slash a person's hand, wrist and then neck in about a second & a half.
Now that's a highly skilled edged weapons expert but a armed citizen or professional could learn these skills too.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 08:54 PM   #45
DT Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 846
I have survived three knife attacks (thankfully, without a scratch) and teach knife and counterknife. Given a SKILLED attacker, I'd rather face a gun inside six feet than a knife 100 days in a row...

Some info that may help get ideas flowing:
http://www.thegunzone.com/edged_weapons_defense.html




Larry
__________________
He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast.

Government, Anarchy and Chaos
DT Guy is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 09:37 PM   #46
Blue Duck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2006
Posts: 329
The 21ft rule, was taught just to warn law enforcement that a man with a knife within that range is a real threat, and if a determined man with a knife charges you, OH you may kill him with your handgun, and you might get off a shot, but that doesn't mean you will stop him, and then he may be on you, with enough life left to kill you, and or stab you many times, before he expires.

Little knives are dangerous, but big knifes are more dangerous, because they give the attacker or defender reach and leverage, and power to not only cut but even dismember fingers and hands, etc. and they don't run out of bullets.

Forget the 21ft rule, you should probably be worried more about the 7 to 10ft rule, because chances are you won't recognize the threat, until the bad guy is already well within the 20ft or so. Do you thing a bad guy with a knife is going to actually warn you at 21ft that he is coming at you!
Blue Duck is offline  
Old March 13, 2014, 09:44 AM   #47
Skadoosh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2010
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 2,015
Exactly, Blue Duck...the ability of recognizing a threat in sufficient time is something that a few of us here can not seem to take into account. Doesn't matter how fast a person can draw if they cannot recognize a threat until it is too late.

Its not about the speed and technique. Its about context. I will take a slow shooter who smells a rat around corners over a speed shooter who unknowingly walks into the rat's nest any day.
__________________
NRA Life Member
USN Retired

Last edited by Skadoosh; March 13, 2014 at 11:14 AM.
Skadoosh is offline  
Old March 13, 2014, 10:45 AM   #48
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,066
Little knives - I know two cases where a man was stabbed once with a paring knife (the little guy you use to slice an apple) and proceeded to just drop dead right there.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old March 13, 2014, 01:23 PM   #49
DannyB1954
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2013
Location: Pahrump Nv USA
Posts: 480
We should have a 21 foot thread. I think for me it is valid. In training you are expecting something to happen. Most times in reality, one is reacting to the unexpected. This takes time to fathom what is happening.
Their is a video of several Police officers confronting a man with a knife. They Knew he had the knife and was dangerous. They still got hurt.
DannyB1954 is offline  
Old March 13, 2014, 01:28 PM   #50
Derbel McDillet
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2013
Location: Kitsap County, Washington
Posts: 316
Dennis Tueller's original article - http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/T.../How.Close.htm
Derbel McDillet is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10565 seconds with 8 queries