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Old February 19, 2014, 02:39 PM   #51
leadcounsel
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@ Theo. In another post, I may have come across making you think the AR was not a valid choice. That was not what I said, or at least meant to say.

The AR *is* a great option, and a premier battle rifle. While not MY top choice, you and your wife are well armed with an AR and it's great that she has a solid weapon to choose, that will resolve 99.9% of self defense issues if she does her part. Everyone has preferences, and that's the beauty of a free country where guns are our rights.

While not *my* top choice, I have several ARs in the safe, and shoot expert with them. It is a great choice and if you have someone that shoots it well then she is all set.
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Old February 19, 2014, 02:52 PM   #52
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I'm not suggesting that you said an AR-15 was a bad choice. I'm simply suggesting that a pump shotgun isn't as easy for beginners to use as many people seem to think, and I used my wife as an example.

My wife has access to my AR-15 and could use it to defend our home if needed. But, to be honest, if I was to outfit her with her own home-defense weapon (and she were interesting in having one just for her) I would use my 10/22 with a BX-25 mag. She's better with the 10/22 than anything else, it's lighter than my AR-15, and she really enjoys shooting it. I'd rather her have an under-powered weapon that she shoots really well and is completely comfortable with.
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Old February 19, 2014, 04:21 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
All the beginners should take a full sized shotgun and try to hold it up and aimed at a BG or the defended door for 5 minutes. At the same time, manipulate the phone and a light.



There's more to it than the big boom killer kinetic energy mantra.

I'll take this a step farther, since many of us have kids in the house.

I think anyone who has kids in the house should do dry runs through the parts of the house they would have to move through, with light, phone, and weapon, while navigating doorways (set doors closed or open as they usually are!). It's an eye opening experience. Maybe walk through with the family.
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Old February 19, 2014, 04:34 PM   #54
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^^^ I agree. That's why my AR-15 stays in the bedroom. If I need to move around my house I use a handgun.
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Old February 19, 2014, 05:32 PM   #55
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBid
...I think anyone who has kids in the house should do dry runs through the parts of the house they would have to move through, with light, phone, and weapon, while navigating doorways (set doors closed or open as they usually are!). It's an eye opening experience. Maybe walk through with the family.
And, based on all my work with novices, it will take a beginner, even an adult, a lot of time, instruction and work to be able to manage that sort of thing safely and effectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theohazard
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel
If this small Asian woman can defend herself with a Mosin Nagant carbine, I'm sure that anyone can learn to use any common weapon (shotgun, AR, etc.) with little difficulty or fear of the stout recoil. This woman is what, 5 feet tall, maybe 100 pounds.

Men and women much smaller than us were using harder hitting rifles for a couple centuries...
You're completely right; most people can learn to use almost any kind of weapon if they're willing to learn....
Yes, the key is the motivation to take the time and trouble, and put in the effort, to learn. Decent instruction with someone who knows what he is doing can also make a big difference.

My wife always wanted to learn wingshooting with a shotgun. I arranged a private lesson for her and me with a local, but well known instructor and champion trapshooter. Her first lesson she could barely manage 25 shells with a 20 gauge, and her shoulder was badly bruised. But she was motivated.

The instructor became our regular coach, and she worked hard and diligently. It took a while, but she was finally able to graduate to a 12 gauge. She (and I) started to shoot trap in registered competition and help with our coach's regular beginner classes as well as coaching our youth trapshooting group. My wife became an NRA certified instructor in shotgun.

So yes it can be learned, but it can require motivation, time, effort and skilled help.
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Old February 19, 2014, 07:31 PM   #56
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I think all 5 of my choices have already been mentioned. Keeping with the requirements of long gun and minimal experience:

Ruger 10/22 with 25 Rnd Mag. loaded with good HP ammo.
Marlin 1894 carbine in .357 Mag loaded with light not heavy loads.
.20 ga. pump shotgun with 18-21" barrel loaded with reduced recoil buckshot
AR-15 in .223/5.56 loaded with HP ammo.
M1 Carbine. With better than mil surp ammo.
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Old February 19, 2014, 08:23 PM   #57
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Get something that the shooter is willing to take out for practice and is willing to spend money on ammunition for said practice. AR-15's are fairly complex at first glance and need to be operated to understand. AK controls aren't intuitive initially and still need to be instructed. Pump actions need to be manually operated under stress. A "safe action" handgun makes more sense for a new shooter than those with complex controls, regardless of quality of manufacture and ergonomics when discussing points of contact in long gun versus handgun.

Stress the fundamentals of sight picture and trigger press. (Stance is dynamic and can change depending on environment and can take a back burner until the other two are understood). These are more important than the tech and without the skills the tech is nothing.

Other considerations: a long gun is easier to make hits on but harder to manipulate with one hand. It was mentioned earlier that a phone is a crucial tool in a home invasion. Being able to make that 911 call and defend yourself simultaneously gives you and advantage, hence the recommendation to have a handgun to free the other hand. That said, most cell phones and handsets nowadays have a speaker phone. Understanding how to engage this utility will make it easier to use a long gun for defense. There is still the disadvantage where you have to have at least one hand to dial the phone and activate the utility. A pump action is only good for one shot then you need to free up the other hand to work the action.

I would recommend a semiautomatic pistol caliber carbine. A Highpoint will allow money for practice ammo and ammo is common. A handgun that uses the same magazines is available as well. A JRC (just right carbine) takes Glock magazines. (Or a Kel-Tec Sub-2000) One 33 round magazine is worth a highpoint with two mag swaps and spare change. These are logical choices that promote practice.

If you have someone who is dedicated, laws permit, and cost is nothing, a Saiga .410 converted with long stick mags would be the best introductory defensive long-arm in my book. Once worked for a day the controls will become familiar. Recoil is low and payload is effective.

other rifle
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Old February 19, 2014, 09:04 PM   #58
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1. Shotgun, any manufacture.

As far as high capacity, how many people do you think you can have lying dead on your property before someone comes to take you away?
Rifles can do a lot of damage at a far distance. Your neighbors might frown on having dozens of bullets sprayed at them.
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Old February 19, 2014, 09:41 PM   #59
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I like several other suggestions already made, and rather than repeat them, I'll share one thought that I haven't seen yet. I admit this is idea is only hypothetical since I haven't used the gun or ammo myself, but the Rossi Circuit Judge (.410/45LC) seems like it has some positives for beginners and smaller framed people.

It functions like a SA/DA revolver. No pump or lever to work. No manual safety to operate. Just pull the trigger to shoot. If one round misfires, pull the trigger again to shoot the next one (no clearing jams).

At a listed 5 pounds, it's manageable for smaller shooters.

The .410 has a reputation of being way underpowered, but 5-pellet 000 buckshot is available with listed velocities of 1135 FPS. That's five .36" diameter projectiles weighing about 70 grains each. It doesn't pattern as tight as premium 12-gauge loads, but a review (of the Circuit Judge) from American Rifleman claims 3-5" buckshot patterns from 7 yards, which seems adequate for in-the-house distances.

Even with this ammo, the recoil out of a 5-lb. gun is still about half that of standard 12-gauge buckshot out of a 7-lb. gun. And even lower powered ammo could be used for practice.

Of course, people could shoot .45LC ammo if they wanted.

The 5-shot capacity and slow reloads may be a turn off for some people. Also, the cost of .410 ammo is too high.

Last edited by idek; February 19, 2014 at 11:30 PM.
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Old February 20, 2014, 01:28 AM   #60
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In reading all of these comments, it seems most of the disagreement hinges on the expectation of what a HD long arm is there for. Some, like myself, see the HD long arm for the inexperience to be a last stand weapon, once someone has secured him/herself in a back room, and only used for people attempting to cross that final line. Others expect the person to be clearing the home with said long arm. It's two different schools of thought, and both have valid points. However, for the situation described in the OP, for someone with no training and a handgun available, I see no reason to expect him/her to clear a home with a long arm. If s/he feels the need to leave a safe room, I would think the handgun to be the wiser choice.
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Old February 20, 2014, 04:51 AM   #61
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Jimmy, I totally agree that the plan should be barricade and wait. The problem is that some people have small children and need to get from point A to B to ensure the children are safe. This is where someone may need the "room clearing" capability when considering a firearm. A carbine is short enough to be maneuvered through a house and basic retention techniques will prevent the "the BG will pull it from your hands" scenario.

Should a home invasion take place, you need to establish priorities

Example:
1) Secure firearm
2) Ensure all who are required to be in designated "safe room" are in the proper place
3) Secure "Safe Room"
4) Secure phone

Everyone will have slight variations on the theme, but you need to be able to make it from priority one to final priority with your firearm. For some that's a pistol. For others a long gun. Or a combination:
1) Start with handgun
2) retrieve children
3) retreat to safe room
4) secure long gun

One reason is the house may not be optimally designed to utilize the children's room as a safe room for structural reasons or tactical, such as level of the house or location of a window and tree. Make a plan first and foremost, even if there are no firearms available.
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Old February 20, 2014, 04:07 PM   #62
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http://www.wxyz.com/news/mom-opens-f...efend-children

A lot of talk about assault weapons in the news link. Mom saved the day with a Hi-Point carbine. They may be heavy and ugly but from what I'm told they work.
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Old February 20, 2014, 05:08 PM   #63
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Close quarter in home - handgun is what I pick up first.

1. handgun - but the OP said that has been covered...

..so I guess a second handgun and a backup handgun has also be covered? Maybe it's overkill to have defensive handguns and ammo in three calibers? I can hold a pistol longer than I can hold a long arm. I can reload a pistol faster than a shotgun, rifle or AR-15. But I digress from the question.

1a. The AR-15/M-4 carbine holds 10 more rounds than my 9mm XDm and not as much worry about blowing holes through a couple of my neighbor’s homes.

2. I've been running a 12 or 20 gage pump gun so many years, that it would be third runner up (but not my newbie recommendation if they are not going to commit the time and shells to learn to run the gun). I’m using 870’s but suspect Mossberg would work as well.

3. Ruger 10/22 is so easy to manipulate, it makes my list. (Fast is Important if we find there are enough perps for a party or the Zombies are actually Zoombies - but I digress again, mods be merciful).

4. Guess I’d go with a pistol caliber carbine. Beretta or perhaps Hi Point (both are ugly enough to scare off lesser demons).

5. Pick any two of the above.
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Old February 20, 2014, 07:22 PM   #64
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And a high point rifle saves a family in Detroit.

http://www.wxyz.com/news/mom-opens-f...efend-children

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Old February 20, 2014, 11:12 PM   #65
jrothWA
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My presumesion's are:

1) not familiar with long arms.
2) recoil is a factor
3) NO idea as to home situation, e.g.; inner-city, suburban, semi-rural, or rural

Given above, I recommend that the person locate a hunter safety course, as this would give them actual use of long arm that might allow a decent idea of recoil, by actually firing.

2) I would recommend that a M1 Cabine be considered as it has low recoil, good out to 150yds, using various soft-nose ammo has better terminal effects.

3) second firearm to considered would be 20 qa., shotgun Pump action.

4) remotely to consider is a lever action 30/30..
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Old February 21, 2014, 01:17 AM   #66
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Quote:
I recommend that the person locate a hunter safety course, as this would give them actual use of long arm that might allow a decent idea of recoil, by actually firing.
Hunter safety courses here don't involve any actual shooting.

They show you some different types of guns, and explain how they operate, but there is no range time.
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Old February 21, 2014, 11:30 PM   #67
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My Top Five

After reading these posts last night, I thought about them today at length. As I was in a gun shop today looking for some ammo for my carry gun I thought of what is listed below.
1) Do shoot whatever guns you think might be in your top 5. (Shoot with friends, gun clubs in your area, gun shops that rent guns to shoot in their indoor ranges, etc.)
2) Do go to some matches in your area and watch how people shoot pistols, shotguns and rifles in realistic scenarios. (I know IDPA/USPSA scenarios are only somewhat realistic, but better than nothing.)
3) Do talk to some NRA certified instructors or knowledgeable law enforcement personnel about your choices.
4) Do make a plan for what a home defense situation might look like & practice it. Practice it with your spouse and/or your kids. Practice it with both pistol length and rifle/shotgun length implements (unloaded guns or even toy guns, like the ones I saw today as I was looking for ammo). Working around corners in your home is an eye-opening experience and the difference between handguns and long guns is astounding. You might change your mind after trying different plans with the different types guns. Practice it in daylight and in the dark. It will be worth the time before you make up your mind about what you want to use for home defense.
5) It is OK to change your mind after practicing.
Your choices for home defense long-guns will be unique to you and that's OK. I hope you take the time to try out some of what I have listed in MY Top Five before you buy.
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Old February 22, 2014, 06:33 PM   #68
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It's a NON GUN friend who wants a long gun for PURELY DEFENSIVE USE.

I personally think it is patently absurd to expect any non-gun person to accept a 12 gauge shotgun as their SD long gun.

They DO NOT shoot, . . . have no concept of recoil, . . . have no concept of the muzzle blast, . . . have no concept of the workings of the weapon.

Before you jump on the "870 is the greatest" bandwagon, . . . take em out to a range, . . . let em pump a half dozen HD rounds down range, . . . then ask them if they would use it. You'll probably get that "you know you are kidding" look on their face.

Show them an autoloading, box magazine, rifle: .223, .243, .30 carbine, .44 mag, 9mm, . . . there are just oodles of choices.

Let em pump a half dozen of those rounds down range.

They will thank you, . . . and you just may have made a shooter out of them.

And if you really don't want them ever coming around your door again, let em shoot your 12 gauge with the pistol stock, 3 inch 00 buck, . . . you know, . . . the one with the spotlight, lazer, red dot, and bayonet.

May God bless,
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Old February 22, 2014, 07:12 PM   #69
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Don't forget to tell them to hold the pistol grip up to their eyes so they can aim.

It's fun for newbies - don't ask how I know and I know a nationally known trainer who ate his. Also, a grand old skilled TX hunter. Beginner fun

NOT!
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Old February 22, 2014, 07:39 PM   #70
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Dwight55 hit the nail on the head in post #68. Just like I said in post #46; I can't understand anyone who thinks a pump shotgun is easier to use for a beginner than a semi-auto carbine.
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Old February 24, 2014, 12:04 PM   #71
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It depends. If they can handle the recoil, the big advantage of the shotgun is its wide availability and low price.

The only carbine that can really compete would be the much-in-the-news Hi-Point pistol-caliber carbine or its slightly (but only slightly) nicer-looking equivalents from Kel-Tec.

Not that either of those is a bad thing, though.
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Old February 24, 2014, 08:26 PM   #72
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1. Hi-Point 9mm Carbine.

More reliable than many think. Easy action for a beginner to learn. Easy safety for a beginner to manipulate. Easy firearm to manipulate in tight spaces.


2. A lever action carbine in .45 Colt.

A pump action shotgun has a slide-lock that could become a problem for someone who doesn't intend to use their gun often. A lever action carbine would generally not have that problem.

3. Semi-automatic .410 with 18.5in barrel.
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Old February 24, 2014, 09:13 PM   #73
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For me, taking handguns out of the equation, would only be one pick and its a 12 gauge semi auto loaded with 00 buck. If a semi auto was out of the price range then any pump loaded same way will do. Both platforms very easy to load and learn on. If i had to pick more options im gonna go with what i have that i feel like i could make a good defense with in my house and i would say a ruger 10/22 and a marlin 336 30-30. Hands down though a good 12 gauge.
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Old February 24, 2014, 11:13 PM   #74
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Quote:
Don't forget to tell them to hold the pistol grip up to their eyes so they can aim.

It's fun for newbies - don't ask how I know and I know a nationally known trainer who ate his. Also, a grand old skilled TX hunter.
Glenn,

I learned the hard way underwater.

No, not with a cruiser 12 gauge, but with a spear gun. First time I fired it I was in the Gulf of Mexico spear fishing under some oil rigs. I aimed while holding it just somewhat forward my face. BIG MISTAKE.

Knocked the regulator out of my mouth (but I got it back in thankfully!) That little blunt gizmo at the back of the spear gun is there for a reason. You put your other hand against it so it won't recoil back into you.

So yes, hold the shotgun 'Rambo' style least you eat the gun.

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Old February 25, 2014, 08:54 PM   #75
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Quote:
I personally think it is patently absurd to expect any non-gun person to accept a 12 gauge shotgun as their SD long gun.
It doesn't have to be all or nothing. At 7 yards,(the size of a very large room), a 20 ga does significant damage without the worry of over penetration through walls. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwXiQvKwcVs
I prefer hand guns, but the OP asked about long guns for SD. Any gun can be used for self defense, but do you really want something that can take out your family in the other room or a neighbor?

As far as holding someone at bay for an extended time, IMO, just as hard with a hand gun. Most of the time you will not have the phone in your other hand, so you will have to go get it.

Quote:
Again, average citizen, probably not willing to invest a few house payments in the platform and ammo and lots of classes...
20 Ga shotgun will set you back less than $300 for a name brand model.

As far as length goes, most people don't shoot handguns from the hip, so add your arm length. A short shotgun, (most youth models), are relatively easy to shoot from the hip.

Last edited by DannyB1954; February 25, 2014 at 09:48 PM.
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