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Old November 26, 2014, 12:09 PM   #26
locnload
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Rob Pincus did not get where he is by making it up. I suspect what he is saying is that most people that carry weapons for personal defense do not devote as much time to training and practice as we should. Maybe our time is limited, access to a live fire range is hard to come by, ammo cost too much or whatever. Heck, I have a pistol range in my back yard and I have a hard time getting out there on a regular basis. The point is, when your training opportunities are limited, you need to work on the most likely issues and realistically, malfunctions aint one of them, especialy type 3. And I agree, if thats a common ocurance, you need to get a better gun.
The basic tap, rack, bang drill, is as easy as sticking a few dummy rounds in your mags and will cover most problems caused by human error, bad ammo, and worn out magazines. And it does not require disruption of your regular training routine to work on it, its just part of the deal so that your reaction becomes automatic, as it should be.
Frankly, in over fifteen years of shooting,competion, serious training classes, and practice,the only times I've had to clear a type three is when it was set up during a training senario.
I wonder why everytime Rob says something a little out of the mainstream, so many people go off the rails. Remember when he suggested stagging home defense weapons in gun safes in your kids room? You would have thought he was advocating that your 7 year old grab an AR and fight his way to Mom and Dads room. Good grief.
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Old November 26, 2014, 04:13 PM   #27
Derbel McDillet
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A single dummy cartridge randomly placed in every magazine provides substantial training opportunity to instill "tap/rack".

Clearing an "authentic" stovepipe stoppage, using "tap/rack", can frequently produce a doublefeed - because with an "authentic" stovepipe a round may be partially chambered and "tap/rack" can leave that cartridge in the action while the slide engages and attempts to feed the next cartridge. (Whereas "training" stovepipes are usually inserted without the magazine installed and as a result the conditions are different than an "authentic" stovepipe.)

Inserting a doublefeed stoppage for training at the range results in a "dry-fire" experience: you lock the slide open, put a spent case in the chamber, seat a loaded magazine, release the slide, and then play make-believe that the gun jammed while you were firing it. Guess what? You can easily perform dryfire training entirely at home to clear a doublefeed stoppage. Instead of a magazine loaded with live ammo you use a magazine loaded with dummy cartridges - and you perform the same immediate actions as you would at the range. The only difference is you don't get the "bang" at the end.

Much has been discussed about the reliability of pistols. Reliability in a shooting incident may be compromised by many factors not under our control, and the ability to quickly get the gun back up and running to stay in the fight is a vital skill that should not be rationalized away.

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Old November 27, 2014, 08:38 AM   #28
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One of the courses I took required us to not only practice clearing simulated malfunctions (using dummy rounds), but to do so in low light, blindfolded, and with three fingers of the off hand taped together (to simulate injury). Doing all three at once was a real eye opener.
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Old November 27, 2014, 10:35 AM   #29
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Probability of ever being in a self defense gun fight: estimate 1 in 10,000 per lifetime

Probability of a pistol malfunction: estimate 1 in 4000 rounds, based on my personal experience

Assuming 10 rounds fired in a gunfight (well above average), my lifetime probability of having a pistol malfunction during a gunfight is 10 x (1/4000) x (1/10,000) = 1 in 4 million. So if I live my life 4 million times, I can expect to be in a self defense gun fight 400 times, and in just one case I will have a pistol malfunction during the gunfight. Gosh I am worried.

Now add to that the probability of having no vision and an injured hand?

Why not practice in arctic conditions with mittens? Or while hanging from a rope while rappelling? or while skydiving? what if you need to engage an enemy while in a burning building, and your gun is too hot to handle with bare hands? Should you practice firing under water?

It can get really silly, really fast.
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Old November 27, 2014, 10:52 AM   #30
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Yea, but you left out the "Murphy" factor, and we all know how statistics go, when that gets factored in.
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Old November 27, 2014, 10:57 AM   #31
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Not that I agree with Pincus but the reality is that you are training for something which is statistically unlikely to happen if not outright improbable of happening to 99% of people who own guns or carry guns. The chances of most of us having to use a gun in self defense and then having a malfunction is so small that training for that event might not be worth it depending how much time you are putting into it.

IMHO for a conceal carry holder the draw and deployment of the gun and getting shots on target is the most important skill that you will need. Being able to clear leather gun at the ready and deliver rounds will allow one to win a confrontation with a gun. This is the primary focus of my training. YMMV

In the end do what you are comfortable with and makes you feel safe and prepared. Don't worry about the rest. IMHO
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Old November 27, 2014, 12:25 PM   #32
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You can play the odds or play for what's at stake.
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Old November 27, 2014, 01:05 PM   #33
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btmj, with all due respect, how do the following variables fit into your equation?:
- stress induced malfunctions (gripping the gun in an odd way, assuming quick and improper grip, inadvertently activating slide stop lever, etc.) - weird things happen under stress
- being knocked to the ground and having malfunctions (dirt gets into action, creates failure to chamber, etc.)
- firing from unusual positions and having limp-wristing-related failure to eject or failure to chamber
- wrestling for the gun, and getting slide out of battery (or pressing the gun against the body of the BG, and getting slide out of battery)
- exchanging fire and being shot into one's hand, having to continue the fight one handed, and resulting limp-wristing and having to clear malfunctions one handed (try this at home: stand in front of the mirror, aim your gun at your reflection -- pretending reflection is the BG, and see where center-mass is on the "BG"; chances are it is right behind the hands holding the gun)
- etc., etc. (no firing under water, or doing rambo stuff inside burning building)

standing still at the range shooting bullseye is one thing, but owning gun for SD and considering very likely scenarios involved in gun-fight is another thing altogether. thinking about malfunctions should also be different for both situations.
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Old November 27, 2014, 01:38 PM   #34
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I taught with Rob at Valhalla back in the day. Everyday sharing thoughts and concepts and occasionaly butting heads about things

While i didnt agree with all his teaching concepts, in alot of ways he has a point here. The chances of a malfunction during your gunfight are pretty small. To spend a large part of your training time devoted to clearing said malfunctions is not an efficient use of that time.

That being said, learning malfunction clearences and thereby more about the workings of your gun, is not a bad thing.

I think its more about the confidence in your ability to manipulate the system then the actual need to clear the pistol in a crisis.

So, do i spend training time in clearences drills? Yep, but its MAYBE 5% of the time spent on actual shooting skills. You should have a plan when you train. Spend some time on close range unsighted fire. Spend some time at longer distance using the sights. Figure out WHERE that transition needs to happen for you. Spend some time doing reloads (again not a probable event, given avg # of shots fired). Spend some time clearing malfunctions.

Id rather have the skill and not need it then need the skill and not have it
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Old November 27, 2014, 02:05 PM   #35
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I don't practice malfunction drills, because instead of wasting time trying to fix the stupid thing, I'm going to throw it at the guy and pull a knife.
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Old November 27, 2014, 08:44 PM   #36
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I don't practice malfunction drills, because instead of wasting time trying to fix the stupid thing, I'm going to throw it at the guy and pull a knife.
I hope thats not your real plan!!!!!
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Old November 27, 2014, 09:04 PM   #37
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I hope thats not your real plan!!!!!
Not really, I'd probably use it as a club before I got the knife out

But seriously, all the scenarios that I can think of would require too much time, fine motor skills, and/or deliberate thought to be worth fixing the gun in middle of a fight. I figure in the time it takes to figure out what's wrong with the thing and fix it, the attacker(s) will already be in knifing distance (if they weren't already) or will have whipped out their gun and shot you. If one weapon fails, switch to another one.
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Old November 27, 2014, 11:17 PM   #38
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My point is: If training time is limited, spend your time on shooting. First master all aspects of shooting, from draw and presentation in all manner of positions, to off hand shooting, to point shooting at close range, to distance shooting, to moving targets...If you have mastered all these elements (and I, for one, am not even close to "mastering" them), THEN train for unlikely events like malfunction drills.

of course we all know how to clear a malfunction, but training to do it rapidly seems a misplaced priority. Rapid draw, Yep... Rapid mag changes, Yep... Rapid stovepipe clearing... Hmmm... think I'll skip that.

As Derbel McDillet pointed out, not all malfunctions can be fixed with "tap rack bang." faulty primer, yes. failure to go into battery, yes. Some others, No. my last malfunction required dropping the mag and prying an empty casing wedged cockeyed in the ejection port. It was not a gun-fight-solvable problem.

If we want to train for the less likely events, there are some rare scenarios which are much more probable than a malfunction. Examples: Wrestling over a half-drawn pistol (this one scares me). Drawing from a 4:00 position IWB holster while seat belted in the drivers seat of car. Drawing after being knocked to the ground face down. Fending off a crazy woman whose in your face striking and clawing you, while her boyfriend 8 feet behind her is drawing a weapon. Lots of things come to mind which I would practice long before I spent time on tap rack bang.

Jim
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Old November 28, 2014, 12:04 AM   #39
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The "deadman's click" - yeah, you better know how to fix that.

Here in the US, ammo manufactures produce 10-12 billion rounds a year. Then there's the imported ammo. That leaves a lot of potentially faulty rounds, even if the percentage is very small.

If you win the bad-luck lottery in the middle of a gunfight, it might be in your best interest to know how to get our equipment back up and running. Quickly.
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Old November 28, 2014, 02:08 AM   #40
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Hello Everyone.... Happy Thanksgiving.

Thanks to Oldmarksman, Zombietactics and others for pointing out that the title of the thread is a bit misleading.

Ezmiraldo, I do appreciate you making it clear that you only got this impression from an "off the cuff" comment... your presentation of my thoughts were definitely a bit out of context.

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of easy answers/explanations in the defensive training world unless they are cop outs... such as "that's how it's always been done". I do believe that doctrines that make malfunction clearing part of the Day 1 Basic approach to defensive firearms training are out of date. By "making it a part of" I mean purposely inducing malfunctions for students to clear. Obviously, any class is going to have students encountering malfunctions and we teach them how to clear them as they occur (if they don't already know). That being said, I think it is much more important to teach the lesson (and set the tone/expectation) that malfunctions shouldn't be occurring regularly in the defensive firearm that someone has chosen to stake their life on. IF they can afford to be a two day CFS class, they can afford a proper, modern defensive handgun (it is also sadly ironic that most of the chokers in class are MORE expensive than the Glocks, XDs and M&Ps that we recommend).

So, no, we don't INDUCE malfunctions until our advanced class (days 3 and 4 of pistol work) and YES we do tell people that there is such a thing as worrying too much about malfunction practice. Sometimes, the latter is caused by the "any gun will do" attitude that forsakes making a smart decision in regard to what you put in your holster. Instructors/programs that tolerate that attitude and placate the students poor choice by celebrating their ability to clear malfunctions when they occur are actually doing those students a great disservice. It is easier to ignore the student's poor choice and make them feel good about learning the skills to deal with the fallout.

Hope that clears things up. I never have a problem with a disagreement in regard to what we do or don't each or preach in the CFS program, as long as we are actually talking about the topic accurately

-Rob

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Old November 28, 2014, 08:15 AM   #41
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Rob,

Thanks you for your input. Happy Thanksgiving to you, too! I've changed the title of the thread to avoid misrepresenting your position -- sorry if it initially took your words out of context.

I agree that sticking to the conventional wisdom is not always the best strategy (technology changes, understanding of issues improves, skills change, etc.). While I agree with your take on trying to get rid of malfunctioning guns and not viewing malfunctions as normal/routine, I still disagree on not emphasizing malfunction clearing in training/practice. To me it boils down to this: Muscle memory. If a critical skill isn't repeatedly practiced, every range trip, until the point it is done automatically without thought, then when SHTF and one is fighting for his life, lack of muscle memory might be a deadly disadvantage. It seems to me during highly stressful fights for one's life, probability of inducing malfunctions goes up due to the nature of the deadly encounter (plus, there's this annoying murphy's law)... My sig p226 never malfunctions (had only one slight hickup during 1500 rounds fired from it). But, I practice clearing all types of malfunctions two handed, and with each hand single-handedly during every practice (takes about 10% of range time), and much more extensively during dry-fire practice. Is this wrong, in your opinion?

I think this is an interesting and important conversation to have, and your take on this issue is much appreciated. I wish more experts/instructors would chime in, like you did... Thank you for your thoughts on this!
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Old November 28, 2014, 08:48 AM   #42
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Thanks you for your input. Happy Thanksgiving to you, too! I've changed the title of the thread to avoid misrepresenting your position -- sorry if it initially took your words out of context.
Thanks, Ezmiraldo, but I still don't think you've represented my position.

"Rob Pincus says Malfunction Clearing shouldn't need to be a basic defensive firearms skill and shouldn't be obsessed over. It should be thought of as an advanced skill and practiced sparingly." is more like it.

Always glad to chime in and, I agree that these discussions are important!

-RJP
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Old November 28, 2014, 10:09 AM   #43
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My point is: If training time is limited, spend your time on shooting.
How much time does it take to include a dummy cartridge when you load a magazine and perform tap/rack when your pistol fails to fire? How much time does it take to perform a combat reload when you empty a magazine? How much time does it take to occasionally install a doublefeed and progress through your immediate actions to clear it? When you integrate this training into your regimen it barely makes a dent in your precious trigger time. In addition it trains you to deal with the unexpected and drive on.

A good article that's relevant to this discussion - http://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.c...1/#comment-750
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Old November 28, 2014, 01:39 PM   #44
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I have a XD40 that i have put probably 40k rounds through. It has never failed, not even once, EXCEPT when the firing pin broke at about 30k. No amount of training is going to get you out of that. Carry a backup
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Old November 28, 2014, 05:21 PM   #45
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How much time does it take to include a dummy cartridge when you load a magazine and perform tap/rack when your pistol fails to fire? How much time does it take to perform a combat reload when you empty a magazine? How much time does it take to occasionally install a doublefeed and progress through your immediate actions to clear it? When you integrate this training into your regimen it barely makes a dent in your precious trigger time. In addition it trains you to deal with the unexpected and drive on.
To be fair, you're mixing up a couple of things. I don't think anyone considers an empty gun at slide-lock a "malfunction", although it's certainly a case where the gun isn't able to be fired, and needs to be "fixed up" with efficiency and certainty.

(Responding more generally to those in this thread from here on ...)

Regarding dummy-round drills. I think they're great as a part of a training class for purposes of demonstrating HOW a malfunction occurs.

I don't think they have a lot of value in repeating over-n-over-n-over, if you know ahead of time that your mags have a "dud" or two in them somewhere. That expectation of a failure takes it out of the realm of learning to react to an unexpected event.

I have attended classes where a partner loads your mags for you all day (or multiple days) long and is expected to introduce a few dummies at random. That seems like a better representation of something closer to reality. Learning to react to an unexpected event seems like better training.

I think similarly about stovepipes and (and some other more-likely occurrences which scarcely get mention in most classes) Setting them up does nothing except allow you to deal with a known situation. Once you've done it a few times for sake of reasonable speed, efficiency and certainty, I don't know what value there is in getting in a whole lot of reps. (Keeping in mind that some number of reps are required to gain that level of skill in the first place)

Tap-Rack-Bang (or Tap-Rack-Assess if you prefer) covers in-fight malfs pretty well, as Type-1 and Type-2 are far-and-away the most likely of some possible occurrences which are already squarely in the category of "probably not going to happen". That's a basic skill, which is almost identical to the steps required to load an empty gun (whether or not it's at slide lock).

You're going to get plenty of practice tapping/racking anyway (while reloading from slide lock), so I don' know what utility there is in repeatedly setting up artificial malfunctions, just so you can perform the same action. You'll have practiced "the fix" dozens of times already.

If you are regularly experiencing these (T1, T2)issues, there is far more survival value in changing your ammo or getting a better gun, than obsessing over fixing malfunctions which shouldn't be occurring all that often in the first place.

I kind of put it in the category of getting really good at pumping up a tire with a slow leak ... that's addressing the wrong end of the problem.

Regarding Type-3 double-feeds ... most people set them up wrong (?) in the first place, as I think someone already noted. Or at least it can be said that they only set them up in one particularly easy way, because setting them up with a partially-chambered round in a giant pain-in-the-neck. There are at least 3 ways a gun can double-feed of which I am aware, and squibs often look at first glance like a double-feed ... so maybe make that 4 ways?

Stripping the mag, racking and reloading will solve most T3 problems. (Squibs are a subject all to themselves).

How many reps does it take to "get good" at that? I have no idea, but I don't think repeatedly setting up a drill trains you to do much but set up the drill (past a certain point).
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