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Old November 27, 2014, 10:26 AM   #101
OuTcAsT
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Frank Ettin Wrote;
Quote:
My concern is other readers of this thread, and for that reason I will not let misinformation go unchallenged.
And yet, as a responsible member of the moderation staff, you team up with OldMarksman to not only attempt to stifle someone else's opinion but, spread your own misinformation ?

Quote:
If you are going through your house looking for a bad guy, you are effectively intruding on a space controlled by someone with hostile intentions.
If a bad guy enters my home, he is also intruding on a space controlled by someone with "hostile intentions" A space that he is unfamiliar with and, facing an adversary that he has no idea about the status, or capabilities of. While I do not know his (their) capabilities either, I do have an advantage in the fact that I know the layout of my home. In Daylight, that is not so much a factor, at night, I have a rather large advantage in the situation.

That being said, neither of you consider the fact that : A 'break-in" or "home invasion" is a very dynamic situation. There are endless variables that can dictate the tactics used and, the outcome.

Some people live in homes of 5000 square feet (or more) with multiple levels, that allow the homeowner an amount of time to react to the situation, arm themselves, gather family, and "hunker down" before the threat is immediate. Some live in more modest "ranch" style houses, with one level, and 1500 to 2500 square feet, and, an open floor plan that does not allow the time to "circle the wagons" Thus, the tactics must be changed to fit the dynamics of the situation.

For instance, I live in a 2000 sq. ft. home, single level, with a floor plan that puts my bedroom first in the hallway to the rest of my home. If someone enters, I will likely not have the time to gather everyone into a single room. Thus, my tactics must be adjusted to fit the situation. My Wife and I could certainly "hunker down" and, leave the rest of the family to their own fate. or I can use the singular hallway as a "fatal funnel" to add a layer of protection to the rest of my family. That is the scenario we have practiced and, have proven it to be successful on more than one occasion.

While the "assemble and cower" philosophy is certainly the one most preached, it is not the only "proper" way to react. nor, is it even possible in some situations.

To dismiss someones opinion simply because they choose an option that fits their particular circumstances, simply because it "flies in the face" of a particular "common" tactic, shows an attitude of "stifling" that is certainly not the creative exchange of ideas that TFL is known for.

At one time, it was widely believed that the best battlefield tactic was: Two skirmish lines, facing each other squarely. It was taught, and practiced by the best military "experts" at that time. Then, someone thought outside "common wisdom" and tactics changed.

There is no "one-size fits all" in a defense scenario.
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Old November 27, 2014, 10:43 AM   #102
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Posted by Stevie-Ray:

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Calling the cops with every concern is not only ludicrous, but is tantamount to wasting precious time that can be better spent on real emergencies, and can also lead to the cops "knowing" you and that you cry wolf often.
Certainly true. I have never done so.

Quote:
I clear my house often, but there is at least a 75% chance it is nothing when I do.
Really?

Would you really head into another room knowing that there is a one in four chance that one or more dangerous people will be in there?

Compound that with the success probabilities indicated by the FoF simulation stats, and you would be walking on borrowed time, don't you think?

Quote:
There are all kinds of ways to un-handicap yourself for those nervous moments when you are not going to be happy until you've proven to yourself your family is alone in the house.
Yes, and from my point of view, I will never be happy unless I am extremely confident that we are alone in the house.

You can reduce the odds to near zero by taking a look at a screen. There's no reason to go out on a reconnaissance sortie.

If there's no one there, great.

If there is, get everyone to safety and let the threat come to you.

A lot of the discussion has been about the bedroom. Most books and training courses, and television presentations on programs such a The Best Defense, mention a safe room. There is no reason to be confident that one would be in the bedroom in the event of a sudden unlawful entry, and in our case, it is likely that unless we were already in it, we would likely not be able to get there safely.

We could be in the living room or dining room, which are open to each other and in line; we could be in the kitchen; or we could be upstairs. Or on the back porch, in summer.

In the event of the first scenario, a tumultuous entry could be made directly into the room from either the front or the back, in which the issue would not be clearing, but immediate self defense; or the entry could be made into the kitchen or basement. In the event of noises indicating one of those possibilities, it would be necessary to find out quickly whether entry has been made. I do not intend to go somewhere to find out, when I can look at a screen on a device I have in my pocket, from wherever I happen to be.

I have employed firearms on three occasions in which real home defense threats existed; in two instances, I detected the threats when entry was under way, and I could defend from positions of safety. In another, a violent criminal actor was in the house threatening murder, and I had approach to intervene. after getting a view from a hidden position.

That'll keep one from getting back to sleep right away.
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Old November 27, 2014, 11:02 AM   #103
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Posted by OuTcAsT:

Quote:
And yet, as a responsible member of the moderation staff, you team up with OldMarksman to not only attempt to stifle someone else's opinion but, spread your own misinformation ?
Frank is not attempting to "stifle someone else's opinion", but to provide prudent advice based on the extensive experience of many experts, and he is not spreading misinformation.

Quote:
If a bad guy enters my home, he is also intruding on a space controlled by someone with "hostile intentions" A space that he is unfamiliar with and, facing an adversary that he has no idea about the status, or capabilities of. While I do not know his (their) capabilities either, I do have an advantage in the fact that I know the layout of my home.
That point has been put forth many, many times here in the last half-dozen years, and while it sounds very reasonable indeed, numerous people have simulated scenarios that accurately reflect those assumptions, and things do no turn out all for the party that is seeking the other parties.

The defender who is safely ensconced has a tremendous advantage over the hunter. Frank has cited one exercise in which the searchers lost almost every time. In my judgment, would not be prudent to try something in which there is a small probability of being injured--if, of course, there is an alternative.

Quote:
That being said, neither of you consider the fact that : A 'break-in" or "home invasion" is a very dynamic situation. There are endless variables that can dictate the tactics used and, the outcome.
I certainly do. See my previous post.

Quote:
Some people live in homes of 5000 square feet (or more) with multiple levels, that allow the homeowner an amount of time to react to the situation, arm themselves, gather family, and "hunker down" before the threat is immediate. Some live in more modest "ranch" style houses, with one level, and 1500 to 2500 square feet, and, an open floor plan that does not allow the time to "circle the wagons" Thus, the tactics must be changed to fit the dynamics of the situation.
Excellent input!


Quote:
While the "assemble and cower" philosophy is certainly the one most preached, it is not the only "proper" way to react. nor, is it even possible in some situations.
Absolutely true.

Quote:
To dismiss someones opinion simply because they choose an option that fits their particular circumstances, simply because it "flies in the face" of a particular "common" tactic, shows an attitude of "stifling" that is certainly not the creative exchange of ideas that TFL is known for.
I really don't think that heading out from a safe place to confront one or more violent criminal actors constitutes a prudent action that fits any reasonable circumstances, unless of course someone else is in danger.

However, your point that not everyone can get into a safe place under all circumstances is an excellent point. That does apply to us.

Quote:
There is no "one-size fits all" in a defense scenario.
That is very true indeed.

But there are some strategies that should be avoided every time, unless there are circumstances that dictate otherwise.

Going hunting in the house is one of those.
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Old November 27, 2014, 12:51 PM   #104
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Posted by riflemen:

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If anyone learns anything from this thread I hope it is to have a plan and practice it, interact with others and share information...
That's half the battle; I didn't have a plan on any of the three occasions that led me to employ a firearm for home defense.

The other half is to gather as much of the expert opinion and experience that exist on the subject and incorporate it into the plan.

One must realize that should the event occur, it will be unexpected.

As stated in a valuable contribution from OuTcAsT, the tactics must be changed to fit the dynamics of the situation.

And also as OuTcAsT, pointed out, it may well be impossible to get to a safe room, if you are not already in it.

I have always liked the idea of devising plans on the basis of requirements and objectives. For home defense, my objectives are as follows, in order of priority:
  1. to protect family members;
  2. to avoid being killed or injured;
  3. to avoid injuring an innocent person, either by shooting the wrong target, or with bullets that leave the house;
  4. to avoid shooing anyone else, even if he has entered the house unlawfully; and
  5. to avoid firing a gun in the house and incurring additional permanent noise-induced hearing loss, and damaging property.

It is clear to me that, in most circumstances, those priorities can be best achieved by avoiding a confrontation, and by letting the threat come to me.

That may well not happen in a safe room, in our house.

That takes us back to the question of what to do about that strange noise.

Well, two wireless cameras can be purchased for less than the cost of six tenths of a billable hour for a criminal defense attorney. And thirty six minutes won't go very far at all.

Rifleman, I sincerely hope that you understand that my comments have been intended to impart, to the best of my ability, what I have learned over a number of years from Mas Ayoob, Frank Ettin, pax, and quite a number of others, may of whom have actually put to the test various strategies in realistic circumstances.

I am sorry that you have felt insulted. The fact of the matter is, your ideas on the subject are very similar indeed, and in fact virtually identical, to those that I held and acted upon before hearing from my CCW instructor "let the threat come to you", and before joining this Board about six years ago.

By the way, this subject has been coming up every year or so for a long time.

For anon who has not seen the recommendation, let me suggest reading Defend Yourself by Rob Pincus.
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Old November 27, 2014, 05:48 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman View Post
Posted by riflemen

In the exercises described by Frank, Ayoob, and others, the defenders knew every inch of the structures, and the intruders did not. But when the defenders ant looking for the intruders, they lost.

Try it. Use Airsoft guns. Try a dozen different simulations, each with two intruders. That should take you out of the world of fantasy.


You have misunderstood the point. It is the defender who loses, when the defender goes looking for intruders.


The participants in the FoF exercises would have a way of putting it: "been there, done that; bad idea; it doesn't work". Defenders who try to clear the house always lose.
You're cross referencing force on force training where the intruder is aware of the defender, is planning on a gunfight, is preparing for a gunfight. In the off chance that a couple of guys come into your house with the intention of taking you out by hunkering down and waiting for you to take them out, sure, you may have a point.

Last edited by Tom Servo; November 27, 2014 at 08:01 PM.
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Old November 27, 2014, 06:29 PM   #106
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Posted by Ske1etor:

Quote:
You're cross referencing force on force training where the intruder is aware of the defender, is planning on a gunfight, is preparing for a gunfight.
That does not describe all of the several different exercises that a number of members here and on THR described in numerous posts some years ago.

They described exercises in which defenders went forth looking for others in the structure and compared them with the results when the defender remained ensconced.

The persons in the roles of unlawful intruders and in those of the defenders had the choice of doing whatever they chose.

The hidden defender has an innate advantage.

Not the least part of that advantage is that if the intruder is interested in coming in, taking valuables, and leaving, there may well be no bloodshed.

And that is by far the best outcome.

I'm not going to go back and try to find all of those posts, because this has come up far too often, but Frank has provided links to several of them.

In the past, the question most often was one of what to do if one where to hear a noise in the night. The school solution was always to try to identify the noise, and if it seemed that the noise was innocuous to go back to bed, and if it seemed to represent a serious danger, to not go toward it and to get to as safe place and call in the cavalry. And then there was the perennial discussion about the possibility of calling the police to report what turned out to be a non-issue.

That was the recommended approach in 2008. But in 2014, we can know whether there is someone walking around, or whether the cat is playing with catnip.

Of course, one might opine that the resident on the prowl might win sometimes. As I have suggested before, a dozen trials with Airsoft guns should give some idea of the odds.

But I, for one, would choose a different approach if it seemed that I might be shot even once in twenty trials. Would you get on an airliner with a five percent chance of crashing?

Of course, as OuTcAsT pointed out, some of us may not be able to get to a safe place in the event of a sudden tumultuous break-in. That's the issue that concerns me the most.

In one scenario on The Best Defense, a woman ran to the saferoom and defended herself against an invader. The idea was to show the best place in the room for the defender to be with respect to the entrance.

It was worthwhile and illustrative, but what it told me was that the gun should not be kept in there to be accessed only if the defender wins the footrace. I now carry at home.

Regardless of where I am at the time, I do know that I will not go looking for a confrontation, unless I have to do that to protect someone.

I did have to do that once, and fortunately, everyone survived.

On another occasion, I took a rifle and went to investigate the sounds of desk drawers opening and closing. Not smart, according to all of the trainers today, but I had had absolutely no responsible advice on the subject. I had seen too many Westerns.

It turned out to be the cat--looking for catnip.
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Old November 27, 2014, 08:02 PM   #107
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Sometimes, a worthy topic is derailed by raised hackles and intemperate language. Sometimes, despite our best efforts, it keeps getting derailed. And sometimes, we get sick of reminding people to be civil to one another.

As such, it's lights out on this one.
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