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Old October 22, 2014, 08:01 PM   #1
johnelmore
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Distance a man can cover in 1 second

I was reading a news article where the question was asked why someone would shoot another at a range of 20-40 feet. Good question.

A good high school track time for the 100m dash is high 10s to low 11s. So a young well trained sprinter can cover about 30 feet in a little over 1 second. Most of us here could probably cover 20 feet in 1 second at full sprint.

The question in the news article is a good one and the answer is that humans can cover a lot of distance in short time giving the self defensive shooter little time to decide what to do next. A good exercise would be to have someone run at you from 20, 40 and 60 foot distances. Try to dodge or evade them. Get a water pistol or other simulated firearm and have that same person try to take it away from you. You will see. Its not easy.
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Old October 22, 2014, 08:09 PM   #2
Glenn E. Meyer
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No offense but this has been discussed about a million times in the context of the Tueller conjecture. If the question is about the Michael Brown case, experts will fall out of the sky like the 101st Airborne to discuss this.

Also most higher end training classes run this one. I've done it quite a few times.
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Old October 22, 2014, 08:42 PM   #3
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I cannot quote the source, . . . but I remember reading several places that the 20 / 21 foot rule is good for the adversary who has a knife, club, or other "up close and personal" weapon.

Stop them out there, . . . or you may be stopping them at bad breath distances, . . . if you stop them at all.

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Old October 22, 2014, 09:01 PM   #4
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Quote:
I was reading a news article where the question was asked why someone would shoot another at a range of 20-40 feet. ...

The question in the news article is a good one and the answer is that humans can cover a lot of distance in short time giving the self defensive shooter little time to decide what to do next.
Dennis Tueller (a Salt Lake City police officer) answered that question over 10 years ago. He developed an exercise to test at what distances an assailant with a contact weapon could be a credible threat.

Tueller showed that an assailant 21(+/-) feet away with a contact weapon needs to be taken seriously as a threat. You need to take him seriously as a threat because (1) he can cover the distance between you and him in a short time (about 1.5 seconds); and (2) it will take you a roughly comparable amount of time to draw and fire your gun.

Tueller's original article may be read here. Notice that Tueller talks about how being able to recognize what your danger zone is and that someone in it is a credible threat allows one to take early, appropriate defensive, risk mitigating actions.
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Old October 22, 2014, 09:11 PM   #5
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If the attacker is bigger and stronger than the armed defender, then they don't even need a "contact weapon": If you don't stop them before they get to contact distance, they may very easily take the defender's gun and use it for a "contact weapon" .....
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Old October 23, 2014, 03:05 PM   #6
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I must admit part of the motivation behind posting this thread is one particular individual who appears in media pondering why someone might fire on another individual from 20 feet away. It sounds simple, but if you go through one of these retention drills its a bit more complex. The other motivation behind this thread is to hopefully start more conversations on retention drills. Its a worthwhile topic to discuss and compare notes on. My idea of a retention drill is someone coming at you full steam trying to take it away. Kind of simple and I know others may have more advanced ideas.
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Old October 28, 2014, 08:34 PM   #7
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MUCH less than a 9mm bullet.
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Old October 28, 2014, 09:16 PM   #8
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Agree with Frank on this one. This is what they tought us in CCW class. 21 feet
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Old October 29, 2014, 07:38 AM   #9
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Posted by johnelmore: So a young well trained sprinter can cover about 30 feet in a little over 1 second.
As Frank pointed out, Tueller demonstrated that a person can cover 21 feet in a second and a half. And he was not testing well trained sprinters.

A runner will cover the first 7 yards at a much faster rate than the next 93.

One second? Probably 15 feet.

Not good, if it takes the defender 1.5 seconds to draw and fire.

We need also to realize that if an attacker with and edge weapon has closed the distance before he is shot, he will have had the capability to inflict a serious wound.
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Old October 30, 2014, 06:08 AM   #10
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I was reading a news article where the question was asked why someone would shoot another at a range of 20-40 feet. Good question.
Because I've actively called PD and turned in many reports and stolen property, I have a lot of enemies where I'm located.
One morning, I got to the shop and as I walked to the rear of my truck, one of those idiots opened fire from the tree line. He got the truck, some of the trash in the truck, and building. He was firing from at least 40 yards away. People like him are the reason I practice at all ranges. Most incidents are very much closer though.

The second pic shows what's behind the tree line. Two streets, one very busy with many pedestrians. It was real busy at the time.
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Old October 30, 2014, 10:57 AM   #11
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Quote:
Dennis Tueller (a Salt Lake City police officer) answered that question over 10 years ago. He developed an exercise to test at what distances an assailant with a contact weapon could be a credible threat.

Tueller showed that an assailant 21(+/-) feet away with a contact weapon needs to be taken seriously as a threat. You need to take him seriously as a threat because (1) he can cover the distance between you and him in a short time (about 1.5 seconds); and (2) it will take you a roughly comparable amount of time to draw and fire your gun.
People talk about about 21 feet and the Tueller drill (which was very informative) as if it is some sort of definitive fixed number and that isn't the case at all. It should only be considered as a working consideration. From the article cited...

Quote:
We have done some testing along those lines recently and have found that an average healthy adult male can cover the traditional seven yard distance in a time of (you guessed it) about one and one-half seconds. It would be safe to say then that an armed attacker at 21 feet is well within your Danger Zone.
I would argue based on testing that we did that the distance of 21 feet can be covered by 42 year old 240 lb. keyboard commando within the draw time of people tested at the gun range (defensive pistol class) who knew they were going to be charged and who had to remain stationary. Said keyboard commando could hardly be considered a fast charger when pitted against 25 year old 160 lb guys.

In other words, given one's draw time under non-ideal circumstances of knowing what was going to happen and the fact that many attackers will be more athletic than the keyboard commando, the actual threat distance may be several feet further out beyond 21 feet. Tueller's 21 foot statistic was just an averaged result and can be attained by less than average attackers depending on the response of the potential victim.
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Last edited by Double Naught Spy; October 30, 2014 at 04:32 PM.
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Old October 30, 2014, 11:47 AM   #12
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Distance a man can cover in 1 second
Not near as much as I could cover 40 to 50 years ago, which is a good reason to stay alert and carry a little "helper".

If you can't outrun 'em, maybe you can out gun 'em.
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Old October 30, 2014, 12:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Posted by Double Naught Spy: People about about 21 feet and the Tueller drill (which was very informative) as if it is some sort of definitive fixed number and that isn't the case at all. It should only be considered as a working consideration.
Absolutely!

Quote:
I would argue based on testing that we did that the distance of 21 feet can be covered by 42 year old 240 lb. keyboard commando within the draw time of people tested at the gun range (defensive pistol class) who knew they were going to be charged and who had to remain stationary.
I cannot disagree.

Quote:
In other words, given one's draw time under non-ideal circumstances of knowing what was going to happen and the fact that many attackers will be more athletic than the keyboard commando, the actual threat distance may be several feet further out beyond 21 feet. Tueller's 21 foot statistic was just an averaged result and can be attained by less than average attackers depending on the response of the potential victim.
Yet when one goes to the range , one sees people practicing shooting at targets 21 feet away, rather than trying to land fast hits on a target that is about where an attacker would be after a defender had drawn his gun.....
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Old October 30, 2014, 01:14 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by oldmarksman
Yet when one goes to the range , one sees people practicing shooting at targets 21 feet away, rather than trying to land fast hits on a target that is about where an attacker would be after a defender had drawn his gun.....
That's because most people don't find it very challenging shooting with the muzzle of their gun touching the target.
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Old October 30, 2014, 05:35 PM   #15
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In the grand scheme, I am not worried about being attacked by a person with a knife from some extended distance. That tends to be more of the realm of LEOs and such (hence Tueller). Of all the attacks made on non-LEOs, this has to be near the bottom of the list. The attacks of more concern for non-LEOs are the ones that come from much closer distances, often by people who either close the distance clandestinely, innocuously, or are already well inside that distance and are challenging you.

The issue for non-LEOs really isn't so much about how much distance can an attacker cover in X amount of time. The number of seconds really doesn't matter. The real issue concerns the defender. Just how much of a defense can the defender mount once the defender has observed the attack, come to the realization that the attack is actually happening, makes the decision to react and then actually reacts. More time is lost by surprised folks stupified into inaction by disbelief than in actually mounting a defense.

With all that in mind, check out this video. It is a police video. After a police chase with the suspect wrecked out, cops undoubtedly with guns drawn after a felony chase (not shown), the suspect managed to get out of his car in a violent fashion and charged the cops with a knife, slashing one in the face before eventually being shot in and killed. From the looks of the scene, the suspect covered more than 21 feet and did so NOT in a straight line, falling down in the process, and still managed to nearly kill a cop. All this happened with the cops as about as prepared as they could be. Think about it. Why didn't the cops shoot sooner? Now imagine you are just walking down the street when a guy hops out of the car and attacks you from just feet away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnFyKOQnDEM
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Old October 30, 2014, 06:21 PM   #16
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Posted by Double Nought Spy: In the grand scheme, I am not worried about being attacked by a person with a knife from some extended distance. That tends to be more of the realm of LEOs and such (hence Tueller). Of all the attacks made on non-LEOs, this has to be near the bottom of the list. The attacks of more concern for non-LEOs are the ones that come from much closer distances, often by people who either close the distance clandestinely, innocuously, or are already well inside that distance and are challenging you.

The issue for non-LEOs really isn't so much about how much distance can an attacker cover in X amount of time. The number of seconds really doesn't matter. The real issue concerns the defender. Just how much of a defense can the defender mount once the defender has observed the attack, come to the realization that the attack is actually happening, makes the decision to react and then actually reacts. More time is lost by surprised folks stupified into inaction by disbelief than in actually mounting a defense.
My thoughts exactly.

But--the Tueller observations can be very key in a defense of justification.
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Old October 31, 2014, 09:40 AM   #17
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Here is a recent attack from MUCH greater than 21 feet, but the officers didn't notice the attack until too late and then were not able to stop the attacker before he had downed one officer and sliced another. The two uninjured officers then managed to drop the attacker and an innocent bystander (who was two doors down) with their 19 shots fired.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2014/10/2...atchet-attack/
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1984914
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Old October 31, 2014, 03:14 PM   #18
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Dennis developed his Tueller Drill a lot longer back than 10 years ago.

I've known him for at least 30 years & he had it before I ever met him.
We worked in neighboring towns for neighboring PDs, my wife worked with him there in the '70s.
I was at an Ayoob training session in the '80s where Dennis was a guest instructor & we all worked on that drill. (I was in the training tape Mas sold from his "store" from that session.)

When we incorporated it into our own PD's training, several officers "died" when the rubber knife started out at 21 feet.
Surprised & not believing that distance was a real threat, some couldn't get their guns out of the holster before being struck, others barely got a shot off just before impact.

Considering an attacker can still, in many cases, continue on aggressively even after being struck once or twice, even that was too close to be getting a defensive shot off.

21 feet is not an absolute, but it does illustrate quite clearly that just because a knife is beyond arm's reach, it's still a very real threat at extended distances.
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