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Old December 10, 1998, 12:24 AM   #26
Rich Lucibella
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Well, I don't know that I'd go so far in Kata-bashing. If you're out to learn practical street self defense, kata is probably useless.

If you're out to master an art, kata is as important as dry fire practice to a Master Sniper. It teaches muscle memory, instinctive movement, speed, power and fluidity...unfortunately, it does so only over a very long period of time.

Granted, few of us aspire to becoming a Yuck Foo Grandmaster....few of us aspire to being a Master Rifleman (1,000 yard plus). But if you *do* wish to become either, expect to put thousands of hours into actions that are worthless to the general (and competent) HtH trainee or combat shooter.
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Old December 10, 1998, 01:09 PM   #27
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I'd like to hear the board's feelings on Brazilian (Gracie) Jiu-Jitsu. Since a majority of "fights" end up on the ground, including those involving LEOs, I would think that being skilled in ground fighting (locks, chokes, grappling, etc) would be very beneficial, especially to LEOs. Your thoughts?
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Old December 10, 1998, 01:31 PM   #28
Rob Pincus
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I agree with you that mastering ground fighting techniques are incredibly important to "controlling" and opponent (see the end of my first post in this thread), especially for LEOs. With an LEO there is not an option to "stun & run", ie- it is not good enough to throw a strike to the throat or eyes and make tracks. An LEO must see the engagement through, to include the taking into custody of the opponent.

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Old December 10, 1998, 04:33 PM   #29
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I am not a real HTH Martial artist. I took some years of this and that. Army gave me its version of HTH and the Academy gave me it own... KOGA and PPCT. I took up Kick Boxing for fun... Learned some Kendo, Shotokan & Jujitsu.
Putting it all together I can pretty much hold my own. With all the above mixed up - what would that be called? Street Fighting?
The only point that I believe in came from Sun Tsu - Hit the other guy first, and hit him hard enough that he can't hit back. When it all hits the fan - that has proven to be the methodology that has worked the best.

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Old December 10, 1998, 06:41 PM   #30
Mike Mello
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I think that the Brazilians truly changed the complexion of how we look at HtH in this day and age. They have some great stuff and several are excellent teachers. What you must be careful of though is; a number of the Brazilians coming to the US are sport oriented only. They will all tell you they have a NHB background, but in reality they have very very little. A sport guy is very happy to keep someone in the guard forever, thats a way he gains points. As I beleive Rob said, for LEO's that shouldn't be our goal. Ground skills (as well as striking, and firearms and impact weapons) are essential skills. But keeping in mind the restrections associatied with those skills. Rolling around on your back, with a big drunk wife beater on top of you, with 30 extra pounds of gear makes for intresting training. On the same standpoint, I'd rather have that training than none at all.

A second issue. As with Koreans in the 60's, if you say your from Brazil and speak Portuguese, you must be a jiu jitsu instructor. Let the buyer beware. Some of these guys are here for a quick buck and as soon as the flurry over BJJ is over(I think its dying already) they'll be outa here.

On the positive note, what the Brazilians did (and specifically the Gracie family) is take a grappling sport (turn of the century Kodokan judo) and transform it to have street fight capabilities. From this hybrid systems have formed and will continue to.

I think we are on the edge of knocking the dust off of the perception of combatives in this country. Systems for their original purpose, fighting. Not to collect medals, or find one's center, or to be a tv star. To some those are worthwhile goals and they should be pursued. But the hard reality is, several of us want to and need to be proficient in combat, with whatever course we take.

Bruce Lee said "all knowledge is ultimately self knowledge". We draw from our experiences and make that learning the most effective tool to reach our goal.
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Old December 12, 1998, 07:59 AM   #31
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Mike makes a good point about the quality of Brazilian jiujitsu instructors -- being able to say "gward" and call everyone "my fren, my fren" does not a great instructor make. Most schools tend to teach to sport aspects, like the one at which I now train (it's the only one near me). My prior training in BJJ and Dog Bros involved a greater awareness of striking opportunities that aren't emphasized in sport BJJ. Striking makes a big difference in creating or leaving openings for techniques. That said, I feel that the Brazilian style has a solid matrix of ground fighting positions from which to work. The positions of guard, mount, side control, cross body, sit out, are a road map to where you want to take the fight. Every other position is just something on the way to the other positions. This type of organization provides a solid foundation for the fighter to organize their game plan.

For LEO's and other weapons bearing types, the BJJ emphasis on closing and going to the ground creates problems for weapon retention. It's hard to protect that weapon side at all times when you're rolling around on the ground. Likewise, rolling around can be difficult with a duty belt or bulky body armor. Helpful here is to remember to keep hard accessories like cuffs (the major offender on most belts) off the centerline/spine area. Though this should be readily apparent upon sitting down in the cruiser, many people seem to miss this vital subtlety for serious injury prevention. For LEO's, grappling is a part of everyday interactions with subjects. It's far easier to be well trained and be able to resort to grappling rather than only striking -- there's less 'splainin' to do after effecting the arrest.
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Old December 13, 1998, 07:09 AM   #32
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I'm sorry, but BJJ is way over-hyped. Ground fighting is an integral part of unarmed combat that the American public is only recently exposed to, but is still mesmerized by. Now EVERYBODY'S doing BJJ. It's as if we're just a school of unthinking fish that floats from fad to fad with each passing decade. Karate, Ninjitsu, TKD, BJJ.. what's next? Truth is, for LEOs, I think a much better general strategy is Aikijujitsu. Rolling on the ground is best avoided if possible.

Thanks for letting me vent.
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Old December 14, 1998, 08:42 PM   #33
Mike Mello
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I think that the answer we are looking for is "balance". We are striving for a "system" that covers all potential ranges of combat. Grounds skills, regardless where you get them from are as vital as standing, as the use of weapons, so on and so on. No one system these days hold the answer. Thats why most of us (judging from the coversations) tend to train or at least expose ourselves to what is out there. I began my firearms training with my father, then progressed to the police academy, Gunsite, H&K, the FBI, NRA, Deni Chalker, Harry Humphries, Jack Furr and the list goes on. I didn't stick with what my father taught me, not that it was bad, just I had to change for my needs.
My goal should be to make sure that the others systems that I study, are compatible with each other, in an effort to "trim the fat" so to speak.

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Old December 15, 1998, 03:43 PM   #34
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MKEAA, sorry this post is so late.

I learned some interesting things about Brazilian JJ recently.

In the case of the Gracies, if you spar with them, they will really restrict what moves you can make. Also, they like to start out with their hands and arms in a "high" position. When they do this, many will match this high stance, and when you do, they will dive low at you, and down you go.

They really like the arm bar, and I forget the proper name for the other technique they frequently use. The fact is, both of those moves can be easily(!) overcome, once you know how. This is not a slam on the Gracies, it's just that almost all martial arts have, IMHO, effective counter moves, and that makes them potentially less effective.
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Old December 16, 1998, 02:34 AM   #35
Shutoku Shia
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Mr. Mike Mello, that was a great post! I will remember it so that I can always refer to it as something that I should always strive for. Good job!

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Old December 16, 1998, 07:39 AM   #36
Mike Mello
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Mr. Shia,,,a heart felt "do itashimasite"
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