So I shot my first deer with my 25-06, didn’t happen like I expected...

[Wyosmith]

On deer and elk I have seen more "bang-flops" with my 270s then any other caliber. Why?
I don't really know. I have a theory, but it's just a theory. But that's what I have seen from 50+ years of hunting and guiding. What I have seen is fact, not theroy.

I also own and use a 25-06 at times, and I have found the Sierra bullets can sometimes be a bit erratic with they hit, turning off course inside the deer quite often. Burgers also are erratic. I have seen the same thing with Hornady and Speer bullets too, but less often.

Oddly the Hollow Point Sierras are BETTER then their boat tailed lead tipped "game kings" and penetrate straighter and deeper. That sounds exactly backwards of what I would have guessed, but that what I have seen. I may get called crazy ---- but I have seen it several times.

The bullets that seem to drop deer the fastest from my 25-06 are the Nosler Partitions and the Hornady and Nosler bonded bullets.

[mccraggen]

I feel like I have learnt a lot with this discussion, fyi the red deer buck we shot would have been around 180 kilo so close to 400 pound!


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[Mobuck]

"Oddly the Hollow Point Sierras are BETTER then their boat tailed lead tipped "game kings" and penetrate straighter and deeper. That sounds exactly backwards of what I would have guessed, but that what I have seen."

In preparation for a Buckmasters sponsored handicapped youth hunt,I loaded some .257 HP Gamekings at a starting load level for use on big northern Wisconsin bucks.
Prior to that hunt, I killed three Midwestern whitetails at home to ensure the suitability of this bullet/load. The .257 90 grain BTHP Gamekings @ 2750 fps MV did a fine job at the limited range we needed.
The smaller local doe deer 100-150 yard hits showed full penetration with modest but adequate expansion. The 250+# Wisconsin buck hit @ 50 yards was dead on his feet when the little bullet took the top off his heart. Expanded bullet was found under the hide on the off side.
I've killed several deer using a 22/250 loaded with Sierra 55 grain BTHP "game bullets". Penetration was adequate but not pass through but what does one expect from a 55 grain bullet @ 3400 fps MV hitting a 150# deer @ 150 yards.

[Picher]

The brain shot is the most difficult and risky shot, because deer move their heads to look around and it's easy to hit them in the snout/jaw by mistake. Then, you have a situation where the deer runs off and dies from starvation because it can't eat.

Shoulder shot is the best for me. Lung shot is deadly, but may let the deer run off over a hundred yards, if a bit high. The high lung shot doesn't leave much blood for the first 30 yards or more, so it's difficult to follow in tight evergreens, etc.

Heart shot and they almost always go about 80 yards before they drop. The only good thing about it is that they often leave a good blood trail to follow.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I agrees, light and fast works best for thin skinned, easily killed critters like deer. The only exception being where open spaces might require very long shots (300+ yards) in wind.
I love the performance of the Barbes TTSX bullets. They often are made lighter than any other bullet available. I use 80gr in .243 and 110gr in 7mm and .30-06. They make 80gr in .257 so that’s what I’d use there too.

Generally speaking, most all modern cartridges will fire the light TTSX bullets between 3,250-3,600 FPS. The .25-06 is listed over 3,800. I guarantee that would be incredibly effective.

[Double Naught Spy]

Why is it many who buy a fast stepping cartridge automatically shoot the heaviest bullet weights available on all size of animals?_??

Oh, there are a whole lot of reasons why people opt to go heavy with fast or slow moving cartridges, often heavier than they need. I will sum them up by saying there seems to be a prevailing fear of insufficiency in the gun world, which translates to ballistics as well. You never want to undershoot an animal, not do enough damage. Bigger is better. More is better. You can fail to kill with going too small, but you can't really overkill. Its all perception.

[Dano4734]

Hunted white tail all my life. I blew the heart out of one and it still made it 75 yards. They are sometimes really impressive even after they are walking dead

[Erno86]

Heart shot deer will occasionally go into --- what is called --- a "death run," traveling at running pace that will sometimes cover 100 yards.

[stephen426]

I have not hunted deer, but why don't more people aim for the neck, just below the head? I imagine it would be pretty easy to either damage the spine, major arteries, or wind pipe, especially with expanding bullets. There isn't nearly as much muscle there compared to the shoulders so penetration should be easy. Is it because it is a smaller target to hit, where it could injure the animal rather than kill it?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by stephen426

I have not hunted deer, but why don't more people aim for the neck, just below the head? I imagine it would be pretty easy to either damage the spine, major arteries, or wind pipe, especially with expanding bullets. There isn't nearly as much muscle there compared to the shoulders so penetration should be easy. Is it because it is a smaller target to hit, where it could injure the animal rather than kill it?

It's a small target that moves almost as much as the head and, frankly, is entirely unnecessary 99% of the time.

For the VAST majority of hunters, a dead-center lung shot will be perfectly adequate the VAST majority of the time. Truth be told, aiming anywhere else is almost entirely a matter of personal preference. The types of scenarios that necessitate any other aim point are in the tiny minority.

Deer are relatively small, thin-skinned, light-boned animals. Even with cartridges as small as .223/556, penetration with a reasonable bullet choice is a non-factor. Step up to a .243Win and monolithic (Barnes TTSX) bullets and you can penetrate 3-4 feet in a deer, through bone as large as a hip joint.

Most discussion of aim points and bullet or cartridge choice on animals like whitetail deer are almost entirely academic.

[stephen426]

It's a small target that moves almost as much as the head and, frankly, is entirely unnecessary 99% of the time.

For the VAST majority of hunters, a dead-center lung shot will be perfectly adequate the VAST majority of the time. Truth be told, aiming anywhere else is almost entirely a matter of personal preference. The types of scenarios that necessitate any other aim point are in the tiny minority.

Deer are relatively small, thin-skinned, light-boned animals. Even with cartridges as small as .223/556, penetration with a reasonable bullet choice is a non-factor. Step up to a .243Win and monolithic (Barnes TTSX) bullets and you can penetrate 3-4 feet in a deer, through bone as large as a hip joint.

Most discussion of aim points and bullet or cartridge choice on animals like whitetail deer are almost entirely academic.

Hi Brian,
If you were in a survival situation in the wilderness and only had a handgun (let's say 9 mm) with hollow points, would you still say lung shot or would you point of aim change? What animal could you take with a 9mm? Could you take a wild hog with a head shot? I know it is probably not humane, but this would be for a crap hits the fan scenario.

My buddies did a multi-day canoe trip through the Everglades. Say they flipped and lost their food, but were carrying a sidearm. What could they hunt for food?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by stephen426

Hi Brian,
If you were in a survival situation in the wilderness and only had a handgun (let's say 9 mm) with hollow points, would you still say lung shot or would you point of aim change? What animal could you take with a 9mm? Could you take a wild hog with a head shot? I know it is probably not humane, but this would be for a crap hits the fan scenario.

My buddies did a multi-day canoe trip through the Everglades. Say they flipped and lost their food, but were carrying a sidearm. What could they hunt for food?

I have intentionally hunted deer (never got a shot) with my Glock 33 in .357sig. Considering that my 25 yard groups with the Glock are probably 4x the size of my 100 yard groups with a rifle, you can bet I'm taking a lung shot. I'd have to be a whole lot better with a handgun to even consider any other location. 9mm is considered by anyone who knows to be a viable self defense round. If it can kill a 200 lb aggressive human, you can bet it can kill a deer, which most likely weighs 90-120lbs... or even less in Florida.

[gw44]

My son has used a 25.06 for years, some times we track but most of the time we don't !!

[Wyosmith]

Got a bang/Flop today. weird bullet wound, but I hit the neck bones so the kill was instantaneous. I used my Mannlicher 6.5X54, which I made up from an old Breda action that had a rusted and bent barrel. I made a new stock, new barrel and mostly all new everything else, but I think it came out well.
The bullet was a 160 grain Sierra at 2200 FPS. I shot this small Antelope Buck at 177 yards. He is laying in a gully as you can see, and he lifted his head and saw me before I got as close as I wanted to get, but I was down low enough to get steady and solid, so I shot him.

The bullet blew out a large hole right in the front of the neck only about 2-1/2 inches from when it entered. Could have been bullet fragments and bone too. You can see some of it in the 2nd pictures right next to the entry wound. He was nearly sideways to me when I shot, but something turned 90 degrees and exited the front of his throat.
There was an exit on the opposite side about as big as a 50 cent piece, and about 1" from that was an round hole about like one that is made with a 9MM Pistol. Weird. But I see that kind of thing from Sierras not all that infrequently.

My old Mannlicher will not feed spitzers at all. Nothing but round noses. Sierra quit making them (I have only 22 left) I do have about 300 Hornady 160 grain RN bullets and I may try them next time. They seem to shoot just as well. I got 500 PPU 156 grain RN bullet, but I have not used any yet. Anyone out there have any experience with them?

2018 #1 Ant. Buck by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
2018 #1 Ant. Buck 2 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

why don't more people aim for the neck, just below the head?

Its ballzy shooting many hunters won't chance. Gambling a miss garners his quarry goes free. Hunter makes the shot. The shooters reward? _ a 100% undamaged carcass.

Now some timid individuals would preach such shooting is unethical. Me~ I don't think some other having {marksman like} shooting skills are unethical. "For me and those other woodsy sharpshooters >" It's the only way!"

[sako2]

nice job Wyo. Congrats on the goat.

[Erno86]

stephen426 -


If you neck shoot a deer that hits the spinal column...there's a chance that it'll paralyze the critter. Shoot it again in the same bullet entrance hole too finish him off: The second bullet will possibly have no effect on the deer's mortality.
It's a sad hunting event...when I have to finish off a deer or other critter, that's been paralyzed from a GSW (gun shot wound) or a hunting arrow.

There's a chance that a neck shot will only hit the windpipe or just neck meat, thus bringing the possibility of a long tracking job.

If you plan to have the deer head & shoulder mounted...the taxidermist might need to possibly sew up the bullet hole.

[pete2]

First deer I shot that ran ran 50 yards, I threw another shot at him, missed. He folded up on the run dead. The bullet had literally blown up his heart. This was with a .243 but I've also had them run with the .270 but they do fall down faster as a rule. I like a lung shot better than heart. Thru the shoulders will pretty much anchor them if you need to. They usually go down within 25 yards or so but don't be surprised when the run when shot thru the rib cage(boilerworks as an old hunting partner called it).

[Double Naught Spy]

There's a chance that a neck shot will only hit the windpipe or just neck meat, thus bringing the possibility of a long tracking job.

On hogs, people like to make "behind the ear" shots. Unfortunately, behind the ear sometimes translates into "above the spine and hitting nothing but skin and muscle." Over the years, I have shot two hogs that had healed/mostly healed behind the ear shots. I have also managed to lose and seen lost hogs with "behind the ear shots."

Now when I make such a shot, I prefer the animal to be quartered such that the bullet enters behind the ear and then travels either into the the head or into the chest, that way if there is no direct spine involvement, there is secondary CNS brain damage or boilerroom chest damage.

[Savage99]

My deer hunting has primarily been in the forests of New England. I shoot and hit running deer with my .358 Win 200 gr Silver tips. they don't go far.

I aim for the heart/lung area because it's easier to hit.

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by Erno86

If you neck shoot a deer that hits the spinal column...there's a chance that it'll paralyze the critter. Shoot it again in the same bullet entrance hole too finish him off: The second bullet will possibly have no effect on the deer's mortality.
It's a sad hunting event...when I have to finish off a deer or other critter, that's been paralyzed from a GSW (gun shot wound) or a hunting arrow.

There's a chance that a neck shot will only hit the windpipe or just neck meat, thus bringing the possibility of a long tracking job.

If you plan to have the deer head & shoulder mounted...the taxidermist might need to possibly sew up the bullet hole.

I don't really see a difference in having to finish off a paralyzed deer versus having shot it in the first place and having it run a couple of hundred yards. I'm sure is still feels pain as it is running and bleeding out. If you are concerned about pain and suffering, a CNS shot (brain) is the only one to take, yet most hunters won't due to the small target.

My thought was the neck isn't that large an area and a well placed shot will likely cause some major damage to major blood vessels or the spine. Penetration is also much less of a concern. I haven't hunted deer before so I guess it's all speculation on my part. The only hunting I've done is for duck.

[Brian Pfleuger]

My dad has a history of attempting the neck shot, with varied success. In general, I see it as much more risky in terms of miss/wound than a "vital zone" aim point. It's hard to say what happened exactly with a wounded animal, since by definition we don't have the animal to see where exactly we hit it, but I have seen a few go unrecovered with neck aim points.

It also does not consistently result in "instant" incapacitation. I agree, it seems like it should, but it doesn't. Even with .30-06 and 12ga slugs I've seen deer run a fair bit on neck shots. *Graphic description to follow* One in particular, I have never seen such bloody carnage. There was literally blood for several yards on both sides of the deer's path, for a solid 40-50 yards after the shot, we could even see where it bounded because the blood would be 6-8 feet up the side of trees. This wasn't simple "spatter", it looked like somebody hung gallons of red paint and shot them with 12ga slugs. Where the deer died, it was in a small depression and looked almost to be floating in a pool of blood.... yet it had managed to go 50+ yards after the shot.

Having seen the aftermath from at least a dozen or so cartridges, using several dozen different bullet options on at least a few hundred deer, and having seen impact points ranging from literally nose to tail and 90-180 degrees, I can tell you that my personal experience indicates that the high-shoulder shot is the 1st or 2nd easiest to make (arguably, 2nd to straight vital zone), plenty easy enough for any competent shooter, ruins less meat on average than any other reliable aim point (I do not consider head to be reliable) and has the best success rate of any spot I've seen.

I've never seen a deer hit with that aim point escape. Yes, it can get ugly, if mistakes are made, but they don't escape. Whereas a low shot with a vital aim point can sometimes hit only leg, a low shot with high-shoulder aim hits... the vital zone. A high shot that hits anything at all almost always (always in my experience but I acknowledge the possibility of not) damages the spine and allows for a kill, and a shot that goes left or right also almost always (same disclaimer) hits spine and/or vitals and so results in a kill.

[Dano4734]

Neck shot is very tough. I have made many and completely missed many though the years. I agree high shoulder is best

[Wyosmith]

As you can see from the picture above, I will use a neck shot when there is a reason. I have always been a good shot, so I usually hit what I want to, but I hold fire if I don't feel completely sure of my shot. I have to have a reason to take a neck shot.

As I said, this antelope "busted me" and saw me before I could close with it. I didn't get to the place I wanted to shoot from. But shooting from a low prone, I was solid, so I took the shot. I thought I could get a shot from about 50 yards but I was seen a long way away from the place I was trying to crawl to.

I usually shoot through the lungs if I can. I like to hit the high lung area on all my shots if I have that option. With an expanding bullet that will go clear through and exit, I have never lost an animal with that hit and I don't think I ever will, because nothing goes very far when it has no lungs to use.

In this case, the neck and head were the only things showing over the crest of the gully, so I took the shot. I got lucky I guess.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I don't think it's a matter of luck. You're certainly a competent shooter (probably well better) and an experienced hunter. The rules, or at the very least the suggestions, are different for folks like you.

Truth is, you don't need suggestions, or explaining to why something happened or what will likely happen with a certain shot... you've seen it.

You don't ask the question, because you already know... but the folks who DO ask are going to be less experienced, less knowledgeable (hence why they ask) and (likely) not as skilled shooters. The advice I give them is different than what you or I might do in the field.