Punch ammo . . .

Prof Young · December 30, 2021, 12:17 AM

Forum Followers:

I read about this stuff in the latest issue of Shooting Illustrated and was surprised to find it in the local big box hardware store. The article makes the case that these rounds are about deep penetration sans expansion, while recognizing that 22LR is not the best personal defense ammo. I think these may be designed for people who are going to carry a 22 no matter what you tell them. Anway, I bought 100 rounds, which were kinda pricey at 26 cents a shot, but worth the fun of trying it out.

I shot them out of my Walter PPK/s22 and my NAA Black Widow. Ran them along side some Winchester high velocity JHP and some Aguila super extra jacketed round nose.

The punch ran the Walter as good as anything (Am still breaking in the Walter so . . .) and the accuracy is fine. Felt recoil seemed to be no greater than the other ammo. I did notice that the punch were clearly louder.

Out of the NAA the felt recoil may have been more that 22lr, but not as much as 22 magnum. Seriously louder out of this little gun.

As I recall from the article, the load, with its flat nose, is designed for deep penetration without expansion. So, I think if I were going to carry my Walter for SD, I'd load the magazine alternating between punch and something with high velocity and a JHP. That way you'd get a deep penetration on one shot and a bigger wound channel on the next. (Of course carrying a 380 is better still but that's another discussion.)

Sorry I don't have a chronometer or access to ballistics gel.

I haven't look but I'd imagine there are some videos about this stuff on line.

Thoughts and comments welcome.

Prof Young

DaleA · December 30, 2021, 01:23 AM

Eh.
Thanks for bringing this up. It's interesting to see what is being heralded as new.

That said, does anybody remember a die or a device that you'd put your regular old .22LR rounds in and the tip would stick out and you'd take a file and make your own flat point rounds? I remember the claim was it was better for squirrel, rabbit, small varmits than the regular rounds but my memory isn't something I'd bet a lot of money on.

P.S. I'm an avowed Federal Fan because they have a plant where I live (Twin Cities Minnesota) and several years ago they got upset practically all the Olympic shooters were using foreign ammo and so they put out a line of really accurate .22LR and got a few medals with it. Good for them.

Shadow9mm · December 30, 2021, 07:07 PM

I did see these. Flat nose has been around a while. always fun to try new things. I bought a box of midas to try a while back, been busy, but looking forward to trying the top tier stuff. Probably never buy it again though, $25 for 50 is too steep for me.

review of punch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs3ZDL-1Akk

Punch vs stinger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__aw0nZZmMk

kenny53 · December 30, 2021, 11:23 PM

I bought some and shot it today. It poked holes in paper just fine. It worked in my Ruger MKII, TX22, and Ruger Single Six. Shot to point of aim. If I was going to carry a 22 for SD I might carry this stuff.

AzShooter · December 31, 2021, 12:41 AM

I've shot about 100 rounds of Punch in my Walther P 22 and about the same with Stingers.

I can feel the difference in recoil, with Punch being a bit heavier. The muzzle flash is greater with Stingers. Punch doesn't show much in muzzle blast but Stingers will be exciting at night.

Accuracy is excellent out of the P 22. If I needed to carry a second gun I wouldn't hesitate to use the Punch in my Walther.

wild cat mccane · January 1, 2022, 03:29 AM

There used to be jigs and drill directions to make different 22LR hollow point types and flat meplat heads. I haven't heard of anyone doing this for years. I believe the conclusions was these drills as best adjust the tip of the bullet to have a uniform swages...at best.

I believe, and if you haven't heard of these jigs/drill instructions before, that CCI didn't just discover this meplat shape is better while producing 50,000 variations of their CCI line up.

Fact is, a FMJ in such a small round cross section is going to do the same thing.

"feel" is going to come from weight plus FPS on the box. That is a light 22 bullet. It will feel zippy because it is light.

Stamp of approval by Vista Outdoor's Marketing Department.

Interesting read on 22lr drill/tools if you are interested. Haven't heard of it since. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...e-long.134161/

rodfac · January 1, 2022, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Sorry I don't have a chronometer or access to ballistics gel.

Just a friendly correction here....a chronometer is a watch...a chronograph measures velocity...Best regards, Rod

wild cat mccane · January 1, 2022, 04:02 PM

Two parts.
1. Gel has been tested to be a universal media for testing. That gel is used is because it is used.
2. Therefore, results within gel are ONE universal measure of variation between rounds. Within loads that is variance that all equal to an avg with outliers that might be factory caused. At a large sample, you establish confidence bounds that will hit every single depth/expansion within that load with up to 100% certainty. (recall, this is scientific, not social science certainty (95% vs 99.98%).

One load behaving in gel that does something different in equal gel, that's variation because of difference in the the load.

Hunting results are absolutely not results. A hunter cannot shoot 100 of the exact same shots in the exact same location.

So that being said, factory loads across .380, 9mm, .40, and 45 FMJ can all travel the same distance in gel--a universal media. This tells you that FMJ performs similar in gel. 22"-33" in gel from FMJ between the 4 top handgun loads.

A type of shape of FMJ in 22lr in the same load PROBABLY isn't going to do any different but be variation within 22lr FMJ. The four forces of flight are Force, Thrust, Drag, and Lift. All being equal, drag will slow them down equally. I say metplat in this size of round mathatically makes no different regardless of what the wadcutter crowd says because that hydrostatic damage is all predicated on high velocity that handgun loads don't reach. This forum has agreed to that in the past.

It's either a successful 22lr hollow point design or it's an FMJ. In handgun 22lr, the consensus is FMJ due to low velocity vs 22lr in a rifle. I bet a Mini Mag round copper nosed in the same weight vs Punch proves no different in the exact same weight. Nothing to do with FMJ shape. At all.

Heck. I would bet the heavier Mini Mag FMJ does better too.

kenny53 · January 1, 2022, 05:23 PM

I bought the Punch rounds after watching 22Plinkster testing the rounds in gel. I believed the rounds penetrated about 12" out of a 2" barrel. I figured what the heck I'll try it.

jetinteriorguy · January 3, 2022, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

Two parts.
1. Gel has been tested to be a universal media for testing. That gel is used is because it is used.
2. Therefore, results within gel are ONE universal measure of variation between rounds. Within loads that is variance that all equal to an avg with outliers that might be factory caused. At a large sample, you establish confidence bounds that will hit every single depth/expansion within that load with up to 100% certainty. (recall, this is scientific, not social science certainty (95% vs 99.98%).

One load behaving in gel that does something different in equal gel, that's variation because of difference in the the load.

Hunting results are absolutely not results. A hunter cannot shoot 100 of the exact same shots in the exact same location.

So that being said, factory loads across .380, 9mm, .40, and 45 FMJ can all travel the same distance in gel--a universal media. This tells you that FMJ performs similar in gel. 22"-33" in gel from FMJ between the 4 top handgun loads.

A type of shape of FMJ in 22lr in the same load PROBABLY isn't going to do any different but be variation within 22lr FMJ. The four forces of flight are Force, Thrust, Drag, and Lift. All being equal, drag will slow them down equally. I say metplat in this size of round mathatically makes no different regardless of what the wadcutter crowd says because that hydrostatic damage is all predicated on high velocity that handgun loads don't reach. This forum has agreed to that in the past.

It's either a successful 22lr hollow point design or it's an FMJ. In handgun 22lr, the consensus is FMJ due to low velocity vs 22lr in a rifle. I bet a Mini Mag round copper nosed in the same weight vs Punch proves no different in the exact same weight. Nothing to do with FMJ shape. At all.

Heck. I would bet the heavier Mini Mag FMJ does better too.

Could you link me to .22RF FMJ, I’ve never heard of it. Sounds interesting.

Jbar4Ranch · January 24, 2022, 01:20 AM

Remington made FMJ .22 LR as least as late as the early-70's. The military designation was M24 Ball, I think.

rc · January 26, 2022, 11:32 PM

Marketing Hype in my opinion. I'd rather have velocitor or similar 40 grain or high speed 36grain HP ammo.

wild cat mccane · January 27, 2022, 11:00 AM

I have bagged on the pricing of Punch vs HST because Punch was supposed to be cheaper and less "better" than HST. Punch pricing has never been as low as 50rnd boxes of HST now set at $40 MAP. The technical paper specifically mentions price point at the end too.

But if anyone is interested, here is the paper on difference from Vista. I am probably the last to find the actual details of differences. It was hard to know because as Vista says, they both use the same jacket.

HST meets plywood, windshield, steel, and gel tests.
Punch is designed to meet gel tests and does not meet the other tests. We saw this in tests that it was closer to 12" for Punch and 16"-19" in HST.

Punch uses a softer led and preforms to a mushroom. *here I was kinda right without knowing the how, which I blamed on better bonding with better lead. The preform shape makes it not as "stuck" to the HST jacket and Punch is the smushed around the bonding star shape. The mushroom shape does not aid in penetration (ie, more drag/friction).

https://media.vistaoutdoor.com/press...tition_FNL.pdf

wild cat mccane · January 27, 2022, 12:47 PM

My comment above was it's own thread that was placed here but isn't related to this discussion at all. Please ignore.

Pumpkin · January 27, 2022, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rc

Marketing Hype in my opinion. I'd rather have velocitor or similar 40 grain or high speed 36grain HP ammo.

I will second that!

wild cat mccane · February 25, 2022, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy

Could you link me to .22RF FMJ, I’ve never heard of it. Sounds interesting.

Technically, there isn't an FMJ that is true cup and pure like you are eluding to me being wrong by calling a 22lr FMJ. Blazer is a perfect example of a plated bullet that is called FMJ.

http://www.coldboretact.com/blazer-b...rohibited.html

jar · October 9, 2022, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eindecker

https://www.remington.com/rimfire/29-21080.html

Seems remington should be suing its sister company...

More likely Remington would be asking them how to get $25.00 a box?

44caliberkid · October 9, 2022, 09:51 PM

I tried a box of Winchester Silvertip Defense 22LR. The report was very inconsistent, ranging from a pop to a sharp bang. Also a few failures to extract or feed in a normally reliable semi auto rifle. A couple failures to fire.
I was just reading an article in the new American Handgunner about carrying a 22 rimfire for defense. They pointed out that almost any 22 LR will have a few failures to fire, which is nearly unheard of in a center fire weapon, unless there is a mechanical problem with the gun. A lot of those 22’s that fail to fire will shoot the second time through the gun. Some never do. I would hate to be in a defensive situation and have the gun not go boom.

Bill DeShivs · October 10, 2022, 02:11 PM

Copper plating is not "full metal jacket," no matter what you call it. Plating is extremely thin and does little to nothing in regard to bullet deformation. You can dent plated bullets with your thumbnail. Try that with a real FMJ.

What federal has done is make a .22 long cartridge. .22 Short bullet in a .22 lr case.

December 30, 2021, 07:07 PM	#3
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,969	I did see these. Flat nose has been around a while. always fun to try new things. I bought a box of midas to try a while back, been busy, but looking forward to trying the top tier stuff. Probably never buy it again though, $25 for 50 is too steep for me. review of punch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs3ZDL-1Akk Punch vs stinger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__aw0nZZmMk __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

January 1, 2022, 03:29 AM	#6
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,625	There used to be jigs and drill directions to make different 22LR hollow point types and flat meplat heads. I haven't heard of anyone doing this for years. I believe the conclusions was these drills as best adjust the tip of the bullet to have a uniform swages...at best. I believe, and if you haven't heard of these jigs/drill instructions before, that CCI didn't just discover this meplat shape is better while producing 50,000 variations of their CCI line up. Fact is, a FMJ in such a small round cross section is going to do the same thing. "feel" is going to come from weight plus FPS on the box. That is a light 22 bullet. It will feel zippy because it is light. Stamp of approval by Vista Outdoor's Marketing Department. Interesting read on 22lr drill/tools if you are interested. Haven't heard of it since. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...e-long.134161/ __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM. Last edited by wild cat mccane; January 1, 2022 at 03:42 AM.

January 1, 2022, 04:02 PM	#8
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,625	Two parts. 1. Gel has been tested to be a universal media for testing. That gel is used is because it is used. 2. Therefore, results within gel are ONE universal measure of variation between rounds. Within loads that is variance that all equal to an avg with outliers that might be factory caused. At a large sample, you establish confidence bounds that will hit every single depth/expansion within that load with up to 100% certainty. (recall, this is scientific, not social science certainty (95% vs 99.98%). One load behaving in gel that does something different in equal gel, that's variation because of difference in the the load. Hunting results are absolutely not results. A hunter cannot shoot 100 of the exact same shots in the exact same location. So that being said, factory loads across .380, 9mm, .40, and 45 FMJ can all travel the same distance in gel--a universal media. This tells you that FMJ performs similar in gel. 22"-33" in gel from FMJ between the 4 top handgun loads. A type of shape of FMJ in 22lr in the same load PROBABLY isn't going to do any different but be variation within 22lr FMJ. The four forces of flight are Force, Thrust, Drag, and Lift. All being equal, drag will slow them down equally. I say metplat in this size of round mathatically makes no different regardless of what the wadcutter crowd says because that hydrostatic damage is all predicated on high velocity that handgun loads don't reach. This forum has agreed to that in the past. It's either a successful 22lr hollow point design or it's an FMJ. In handgun 22lr, the consensus is FMJ due to low velocity vs 22lr in a rifle. I bet a Mini Mag round copper nosed in the same weight vs Punch proves no different in the exact same weight. Nothing to do with FMJ shape. At all. Heck. I would bet the heavier Mini Mag FMJ does better too. __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM. Last edited by wild cat mccane; January 1, 2022 at 04:08 PM.

January 24, 2022, 01:20 AM	#11
Jbar4Ranch Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Near Helena, Montana Posts: 1,719	Remington made FMJ .22 LR as least as late as the early-70's. The military designation was M24 Ball, I think. __________________ Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced... SASS 47015

January 27, 2022, 11:00 AM	#13
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,625	The technical difference between Punch and HST from Vista I have bagged on the pricing of Punch vs HST because Punch was supposed to be cheaper and less "better" than HST. Punch pricing has never been as low as 50rnd boxes of HST now set at $40 MAP. The technical paper specifically mentions price point at the end too. But if anyone is interested, here is the paper on difference from Vista. I am probably the last to find the actual details of differences. It was hard to know because as Vista says, they both use the same jacket. HST meets plywood, windshield, steel, and gel tests. Punch is designed to meet gel tests and does not meet the other tests. We saw this in tests that it was closer to 12" for Punch and 16"-19" in HST. Punch uses a softer led and preforms to a mushroom. *here I was kinda right without knowing the how, which I blamed on better bonding with better lead. The preform shape makes it not as "stuck" to the HST jacket and Punch is the smushed around the bonding star shape. The mushroom shape does not aid in penetration (ie, more drag/friction). https://media.vistaoutdoor.com/press...tition_FNL.pdf __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.

December 30, 2021, 01:23 AM	#2
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,312	Eh. Thanks for bringing this up. It's interesting to see what is being heralded as new. That said, does anybody remember a die or a device that you'd put your regular old .22LR rounds in and the tip would stick out and you'd take a file and make your own flat point rounds? I remember the claim was it was better for squirrel, rabbit, small varmits than the regular rounds but my memory isn't something I'd bet a lot of money on. P.S. I'm an avowed Federal Fan because they have a plant where I live (Twin Cities Minnesota) and several years ago they got upset practically all the Olympic shooters were using foreign ammo and so they put out a line of really accurate .22LR and got a few medals with it. Good for them.

December 30, 2021, 11:23 PM	#4
kenny53 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2015 Location: My back yard Posts: 971	I bought some and shot it today. It poked holes in paper just fine. It worked in my Ruger MKII, TX22, and Ruger Single Six. Shot to point of aim. If I was going to carry a 22 for SD I might carry this stuff.

December 31, 2021, 12:41 AM	#5
AzShooter Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2006 Location: Surprise, Az. Posts: 766	I've shot about 100 rounds of Punch in my Walther P 22 and about the same with Stingers. I can feel the difference in recoil, with Punch being a bit heavier. The muzzle flash is greater with Stingers. Punch doesn't show much in muzzle blast but Stingers will be exciting at night. Accuracy is excellent out of the P 22. If I needed to carry a second gun I wouldn't hesitate to use the Punch in my Walther.

January 1, 2022, 05:23 PM	#9
kenny53 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2015 Location: My back yard Posts: 971	I bought the Punch rounds after watching 22Plinkster testing the rounds in gel. I believed the rounds penetrated about 12" out of a 2" barrel. I figured what the heck I'll try it.

January 26, 2022, 11:32 PM	#12
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,765	Marketing Hype in my opinion. I'd rather have velocitor or similar 40 grain or high speed 36grain HP ammo.

January 27, 2022, 12:47 PM	#14
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,625	My comment above was it's own thread that was placed here but isn't related to this discussion at all. Please ignore. __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.

October 9, 2022, 09:51 PM	#18
44caliberkid Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2017 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,099	I tried a box of Winchester Silvertip Defense 22LR. The report was very inconsistent, ranging from a pop to a sharp bang. Also a few failures to extract or feed in a normally reliable semi auto rifle. A couple failures to fire. I was just reading an article in the new American Handgunner about carrying a 22 rimfire for defense. They pointed out that almost any 22 LR will have a few failures to fire, which is nearly unheard of in a center fire weapon, unless there is a mechanical problem with the gun. A lot of those 22’s that fail to fire will shoot the second time through the gun. Some never do. I would hate to be in a defensive situation and have the gun not go boom.

October 10, 2022, 02:11 PM	#19
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	Copper plating is not "full metal jacket," no matter what you call it. Plating is extremely thin and does little to nothing in regard to bullet deformation. You can dent plated bullets with your thumbnail. Try that with a real FMJ. What federal has done is make a .22 long cartridge. .22 Short bullet in a .22 lr case. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com