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Old June 8, 2020, 02:08 PM   #26
45 Dragoon
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Thanks AB, I appreciate you doing that. I have talked with Walt a few times over the years.

As far as the 6 shot Howell cylinders, I will tell you what I've done but I'm not saying it's OK for anyone else. (I'm a risk taker !!! Lol) I shot the same loads that I shoot in everything else! My 900 fps to right at 1000 fps rounds are equal opportunity for all of my S.A.'s!! I don't play favorites for any particular one!! (Don't want to spoil any of um!!)

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Old April 25, 2021, 10:15 PM   #27
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Everything I have researched said I can use BP or smokeless rounds providing I keep things below 1000fps. But I haven't found anything specific to the powder and bullets I purchased.

I picked up Goex 3F but all the load data on the Goex web sight is for a 247gn lead bullet with 42 grns FF or a 255gn lead bullet with 40 grns FF.

I purchased 180gn lead bullets and have a case of the Goex 3F.............................so....................can I load for this or do I have to scrap everything and get different powder and bullets?


One other question, when filling the air space in the case, do I insert a wad then lizard litter or can a single wad do the trick? Why do you need to fill the void anyway? I've reloaded for various calibers with modern smokeless firearms so the BP game is new to me and am actively looking to avoid blowing something up......like my firearm and more importantly my fingers.



Thanks!
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Old April 25, 2021, 10:33 PM   #28
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Contrary to the vast majority of smokeless powders, when you load with BP or its substitutes you cannot leave any airspace into the case. So if you want lighter loads, you can use less powder but you must use any kind of filler, i.e. a wad or semolina to complete the space between the powder and the base of the bullet.
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Old April 25, 2021, 10:42 PM   #29
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I'm attaching a couple pics not of 45 LC but of my 44-40s so you can see what I use to do.
I fill my cases almost up to the mouth and then I just press the bullet up to the correct OAL and crimp it.
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File Type: jpg IMG_20210426_004042.jpg (98.7 KB, 57 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20210426_004112.jpg (155.6 KB, 50 views)
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Old April 26, 2021, 01:23 AM   #30
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Hi Centurion....Thanks for that. Yep, always intended to fill the case as recommended. I was just curious as to the 'why'. On that note, do I use a wad after I put in the powder? Do I put filler on top of the wad? Can I just use the wad and only the BP need to not have an air pocket or does the air pocket need to be filled between the bullet and filler as well?

By any chance do you have input in regards to my bullet weight and powder type question?
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Old April 26, 2021, 07:36 AM   #31
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Hi!
Being many questions I'll ask it separately:
Almost all smokeless (with one or two exceptions) cannot be loaded with no air space without the risk of extreme overpressures. That is the opposite with Black powder or its substitutes, if you leave an air chamber or air space between the powder and the base of the bullet then it is possible to get extreme overpressures as well.
BP or its substitutes work at its best when compressed. And normally Pyrodex or 777 require a little compression, while real BP requires a higher one.
An easy rule could be to fill the case up to 3 mm from the mouth, then when you put the bullet respecting the OAL, you will be compressing the powder accordingly.
In case you want to load some less powder, you can use the filler you like the best. Semolina or a wad, but consider that if you use both of it maybe is because you're using very little powder and you can have another problem if you stuck a bullet in the middle of your barrel.
Anyway, if you use any kind of bullet with a well suited BP lube, then there's no reason for a wad or any filler. In the old days in the middle of nowhere, they just fill their cases or cap and ball revolver chambers almost or up to the top, and then compress the powder with a ball of pure lead.
Attached a couple of pics more but with a cap and ball Remington New Model Army this time.
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File Type: jpg IMG_20210426_093246.jpg (483.2 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20210426_093309.jpg (954.2 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20210426_093529.jpg (833.2 KB, 48 views)
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Old April 26, 2021, 07:41 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Centurion View Post
Anyway, the point was that I used stout loads on a 5 shot cylinder, don't know if the 6 shots ones could handle the same level of pressures with its thinner walls.
It's not the strength of the cylinder. The cylinder is made from much stronger steel than the frame. The frame itself is the weak point.
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Old April 26, 2021, 07:45 AM   #33
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With Goex 3FG, with a 45 Colt case and 180 grains bullets, I suppose you can load up to 35 to 38 grains by volume when you fill the case almost to the top. No more than that. If you have a loading scale you can even check that. In any case, loading up to 35 to 38 grains by volume in your case will not leave much air space, but if you think it could, just add a wad and then the bullet. The secret is not to leave any airspace.
With these recipe (35 to 38 grains of 3FG Goex and a 180 gns bullet) you must be obtaining about 850 fps surely.

Last edited by Centurion; April 26, 2021 at 07:52 AM.
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Old April 26, 2021, 07:49 AM   #34
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It's not the strength of the cylinder. The cylinder is made from much stronger steel than the frame. The frame itself is the weak point.
You're right my friend. And considering the frame wasn't being imprinted with any kind of mark from the cylinder, I suppose the revolver could withstand such pressures. Anyway, I'm not going above 950 to 1000 fps with 200 grns bullets anymore, just to extend the life of the whole kit.
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Old April 26, 2021, 07:25 PM   #35
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To answer your question about Howell selling a 6 shot 45 Colt cylinder - they most certainly do - I just bought one from them in the past month for a Pietta '58 NMA - and yes - their conversion cylinders for Pietta or Uberti '58 Remington Navy is also a 6 shot - I own two of them.

A properly loaded BP 45 Colt casing (compressed load) with a 255 gr. soft lead slug can be handled by either a Howell or Kirst. If you reload and use smokeless and use lead - and know how to read - there are plenty of loading data out there to keep you below the 850 FPS that Howell lists or the 1,000 FPS that Kirst lists. Mike (Dragoon) makes an excellent point and if you are an experienced reloader, all you have to look at is the data to verify it.

It is like any firearm though - C & B or modern. There will always be those who try to push it beyond the limits and if you have been reloading for a while, you will eventually see people like that. No - the conversion cylinders will not take "Ruger only" loads - so don't be a fool and try it. There are many good powders out there that you (the OP) can use - BP or a substitute) or smokeless - I haven"t tried Trailboss but it was mentioned and I know a lot of guys like it. I have used Red Dot, Green Dot and Unique and all work well - stay away from Bulls Eye as in a large 45 Colt casing in a smaller grain weight charge, it can do some funny things "pressure wise" - but this is a BP thread so I won't go further.

If you decide to use smokeless - find a copy of the 4th edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook - it has loading data for both the 45 Schofield and 45 Colt which fall under the FPS guidelines set by Howell and Kirst for their cylinders.

Good luck!
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Old May 20, 2021, 08:21 PM   #36
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Howdy

Fist, let's clear up the story with the six shot R&D 45 Colt cylinder for the 1858 Remington. The cylinder for the 1858 Remington is not large enough to house six 45 Colt chambers without the rims overlapping. So Ken Howell took out a patent with the chambers angled out ever so slightly towards the rear, so there would be room for six 45 Colt cartridges to chamber without the rims overlapping. Howell was selling these under the name R&D and Taylor's and Company was the sole distributor. Yes, other companies were selling them, but they were buying them from Taylor's.

Here is a photo of my six chamber 45 Colt R&D cylinder and its backing plate along with my old EuroArms Remington. To those who think it is silly to spend the money to convert a BP revolver to cartridges, I bought this revolver back around 1975, so I had it for so long that by buying the cylinder for around $200, which is what they cost when I bought it around 20 years ago, it was like I was buying a new cartridge revolver for $200.




At some point Howell sold the rights to his patent to Taylor's, and Taylor's has been selling these cylinders all along, although they have contracted with someone else to make them. They are still available from Taylor's.

https://taylorsfirearms.com/accessor...remington.html

So when Ken Howell first set up his own company to sell conversion cylinders for Cap & Ball revolvers, he was prevented from selling a six shot conversion cylinder for the 1858 Remington chambered for 45 Colt by his own patent, that he no longer owned the rights to. He sold all kinds of conversion cylinders, just not a six shot 45 Colt cylinder for the 1858 Remington. Howell is now selling such a cylinder, so I can only assume his patent has run out. Patents do not last forever, they can be renewed, but unlike Trademarks they do have a shelf life.

And before anybody gets upset about a cylinder with angled chambers, I can tell you the angle is so slight it does not affect the performance of the revolver at all, my 1858 Remington with its 45 Colt cylinder is the most accurate 45 Colt revolver I own, and I own quite a few.




Back to the question at hand. Here is the pamphlet that came with my R&D cylinders (I actually have two of them, one for my EuroArms Remington, and another that came along with an Uberti Remington that I bought used a long time ago.








I have already had my hand preemptively slapped about pressure and 1000fps, so I won't go there. Suffice it to say, there is no recognized SAAMI Maximum pressure standard for 45 Colt Cowboy ammunition. It is what ever the manufacturer chooses to be. I tend to doubt that most commercial Cowboy Ammo is a whole lot below the 14,000psi Maximum pressure that SAAAMI recommends. I know some Cowboy Action shooters who load their 45s down to ridiculous levels, to recoil about like a light 38 Special, but that is the stuff they hand load themselves.




Personally, I only ever shoot ammo loaded with real Black Powder out of my Remingtons with their conversion cylinders. My standard 45 Colt load is 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg under a 250 grain Big Lube PRS bullet. I do not add any filler, I compress the powder between 1/16" and 1/8" when I seat the bullet. A word about Black Powder here. Notice I am using an actual recognized volumetric unit, Cubic Centimeters. That is how Lee Dippers are calibrated. A CC is the same as a milliliter. Different Black Powders actually weigh different amounts. 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg comes to about 33.3 grains, which is all that can be added to modern solid head 45 Colt brass without compressing the powder a whole lot more. The only chronograph data I have on my BP 45 Colt loads is 2.2CC of Goex FFg (about 31.3 grains) was propelling the same 250 grain bullet at an average of 704 fps. That may sound slow, but it is a handful in a revolver. This photo shows the components of my 45s, but I actually load them on a Hornady Lock and Load progressive press.






Although I regularly shoot those loads in a Colt, I found the recoil to be a little bit punishing with the different grip shape of a Remington. Also, I was concerned about the strength of the frame where the loading lever pierces through the frame. The walls of the frame around the loading lever are pretty thin right there.






I did not see any actual deformation of the frame with my Black Powder 45 Colt loads, but the only Big Lube bullet available at the time was the 250 grain PRS bullet. I wanted to go for a little bit less recoil, so I designed a 200 grain Big Lube bullet for my Remington. It is called the Big Lube J/P 45-200 and molds are available from Big Lube. No I do not receive a penny from this, I created this bullet as a service to the Black Powder cartridge community.

http://www.biglube.com/


To further reduce recoil, I began loading 45 Schofield brass, which is shorter than 45 Colt and does not hold as much powder, with Black Powder and the J/P 45-200 bullet. I load 1.9CC (about 28.5 grains) of Schuetzen FFg in these rounds. Sorry, I have no chronograph data on these loads, but they produce plenty of smoke and are very pleasant to shoot.






As I said, I only shoot cartridges loaded with real Black Powder in my Remingtons with their conversion cylinders. I have not loaded 45 Colt with Smokeless in a long time. When I did, my standard load was 7.5 grains of Unique under a 250 grain hard cast lead bullet. My loading notebook says these were doing about 800fps out of the 7 1/2" barrel of a Ruger 'original model' Vaquero. I have no pressure data on that load. My old Speer #13 loading manual gives the acceptable range of Unique for this bullet as 8.6 grains to 9.5 grains MAX. I think those loads are a little bit hot, but Speer states they are under 14,000psi. The only pressure data I have for Unique with a 250 grain bullet is from Richard Lee. Lee tends to be conservative with his data. He states both the starting load, and the MAX load for a 250 grain bullet with Unique is 8 grains, which delivers 850 fps. This is pretty much the standard Unique load for 45 Colt. Others will say you can go higher than 8 grains of Unique, Lee says not to. Anyway the pressure for this load is 11,800 CUP. Sorry, I do not have a conversion formula for CUP to PSI, I think it is a bit more complicated than we think.

Anyway, if I was going to shoot Smokeless from my Remingtons, with their conversion cylinders, I would probably start with a bit less than 7.5 grains of Unique and maybe a 200 grain bullet.

Just guesswork on my part, please do not take me to court if you blow up your conversion cylinder. Please consult an actual printed loading manual, do not follow advice you get on the internet, including this advice.

P.S. I guess I am behind the times. I have a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd Edition, copyright 1980. Several different powders listed for a 250 grain cast bullet, including Unique. Includes minimum and maximum velocities. No pressure data. Everything is below 1000 fps, but their MAX charge for 45 Colt and Unique is 875 fps. No, I ain't gonna quote the amount, buy the book. I doubt if the data in the 4th Edition has changed much from the 3rd Edition.

Last edited by Driftwood Johnson; May 20, 2021 at 08:41 PM.
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Old September 19, 2021, 07:32 PM   #37
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This has been very interesting. But I don't understand why FPS even comes into the equation.
I just got a Howell 6 shot conversion from Taylor and co. for my Uberti 1858. I usually use 30g of APP under a .457 143g ball, I want to load for the conversion with smokeless so I called and asked Taylor and was told that the max chamber pressure is 12000psi. So where does fps come into the picture? I worry about over pressure, Not velocity. Someone please fill me in. TY
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Old September 19, 2021, 08:58 PM   #38
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Velocity comes in because most recreational shooters don't have pressure barrels for testing the pressures developed by handloads, but most do have -- or have access to -- a chronometer. So keeping the velocity within a reasonable range is the most practical way most of us have for preventing over-pressure loads.
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Old September 19, 2021, 09:54 PM   #39
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That makes sense. Thanks Aguila, for clarifying that. I think I'll make my high limit with load data for pressure and keep it 10% less than 12000 psi to avoid any possible spike. Just to stay safe while working up the load.
Nice pics Driftwood. I like the old manual better than the new one. You're right about the weak spot on the NA, But the new metal is stronger than orginals. Just gotta love that top strap.
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Old September 19, 2021, 11:28 PM   #40
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Just did a little research. Bullet diameter .452
Trailboss with a 200g LRNFP. Win brass and primers Max load 6.5g. 855 fps at 11000psi
Trailboss with a 230g LRNFP. Win brass and primers Max load 6.5g. 802 fps at 12400psi
Trailboss with a 250g LRNFP. Win brass and primers Max load 5.8g. 727fps at 12700psi
This blows the 850fps rating out the window. Not to mention my 10% theory.
I imagine the lawerized factory cowboy loads are safe. But if reloading, Get the data.
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Old September 19, 2021, 11:33 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by diginit View Post
That makes sense. Thanks Aguila, for clarifying that. I think I'll make my high limit with load data for pressure and keep it 10% less than 12000 psi to avoid any possible spike. Just to stay safe while working up the load.
Nice pics Driftwood. I like the old manual better than the new one. You're right about the weak spot on the NA, But the new metal is stronger than orginals. Just gotta love that top strap.
The strength of the steel is probably about the same. Colt was using wrought iron for frames up until the 20th century. Remington was using steel for frames in the 1860's. The steel used in modern bp guns is still soft. Actually as far as bp pressures go the Remington top strap isn't any stronger than the Colt open top. In fact it may not be as strong. The Remington has a weak point where the metal is thin just below the loading port.
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Old September 20, 2021, 09:59 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by diginit
Just did a little research. Bullet diameter .452
Trailboss with a 200g LRNFP. Win brass and primers Max load 6.5g. 855 fps at 11000psi
Trailboss with a 230g LRNFP. Win brass and primers Max load 6.5g. 802 fps at 12400psi
Trailboss with a 250g LRNFP. Win brass and primers Max load 5.8g. 727fps at 12700psi
This blows the 850fps rating out the window. Not to mention my 10% theory.
I imagine the lawerized factory cowboy loads are safe. But if reloading, Get the data.
What's the source of these data? Do you have a pressure barrel, or did you find these numbers on the Internet somewhere?
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Old September 20, 2021, 01:38 PM   #43
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You can get a little more velocity within allowable pressure by switching to a bit slower burning powder like Unique, if it matters to you.
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Old November 14, 2021, 11:20 PM   #44
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This is directly from Hodgdon Trailboss load data. Howell told me max 12,000 psi. and max 850fps. BTW. Hodgdon is the only data I can find with PSI listed. They unfortunately list their Schofield data in CUP.
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Old November 14, 2021, 11:52 PM   #45
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Workin up

I am going to work up a load with a heavier bullet. I would like to see what a 250g would do and would like to stay in the so-called safe range. My 1858 seems to like the Low, Medium, and max. with the 200g. Everything else is 6 to 8" groups. These were shot with my elbow resting on a backpack. Those little black things on the slixshot cones are home made snap caps from drip lines. Put in a piano wire spring, lightened the hammer spring and ground the adjustment screw. Got the trigger down to 1.5lbs. Flattened out the trigger with a torch and a hammer. I don't want to blow her up now.
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Last edited by diginit; November 15, 2021 at 12:00 AM.
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