Improving Shotgun Pattern

[Deltadart]

I have a Pedersoli front loader 12 ga. with 20 inch tubes, both cyl. bore. The coach gun. It has been a safe queen and now I am going to start working with it. Naturally it has a very wide pattern at 25 yds, so I am looking to constrict that to increase range. Has anyone done any work like this to tighten the pattern of a shotgun by changing the wadding? I have had some success but I am wondering if someone else has already been down this road.

[Oliver Sudden]

I use Remington RXP shot cups (wads) with good success.

[Deltadart]

Thanks Oliver will give them a try.

[Hawg]

I sometimes use paper shot cups. Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't put a plastic cup in a muzzleloader. More powder than shot opens up a pattern, more shot than powder closes up a pattern.

[Oliver Sudden]

I’ve heard many people say they don’t think a plastic wad would be good in a muzzleloader but having used them for hunting and trap since around 1975 I can’t see a reason not to continue.

[Deltadart]

Thanks Hawg, I did not know that. Plastic in muzzleloaders is not my first choice, however it seems plastic is the most available, certainly right now in this country. I tried the limitied bore contact 43mm/12 ga. cups. with 70 gr. R/S. The first 4 shots just put a 12 ga. hole in the paper at 25 yds. with the entire shot string remaining intact in the cup. In the old days of my youth we called those "cut shells" pattern from the paper cartridges. By drilling a 1/16" hole in the bottom of the cup, a little gas pressure was vented into the shot cup and the over shot wad was blown off at exit from the muzzle. Pattern with the 7 1/2 shot was about modified at 25yds. All of the plastic cups were recovered 70 to 75 yds down range.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by Oliver Sudden

I’ve heard many people say they don’t think a plastic wad would be good in a muzzleloader but having used them for hunting and trap since around 1975 I can’t see a reason not to continue.

I didn't say they wouldn't be good. I said I wouldn't use them. Using plastic in a muzzleloader just goes against the grain.

[Pahoo]

I have had some success but I am wondering if someone else has already been down this road.

I own the same shotgun and have loaded, the old way with some variations, like making cups out of paper egg cartons. I have also used the poly cup/wads. I use the latter in the field and they will give you tighter patterns and just handier to work with. ......

Be Safe !!!

[Deltadart]

I am going to try more shooting this week, yesterday's was cut short due to the 24 degrees, then wind kicked up a lot so it was just unpleaseant. The LBC wads need to be cut quite a bit to adjust the pattern. I had started with a partial cut with the intention to work my way down, but did not get that far. It seemed the over shot wad was being forced into the cup and did not seperate. Will look for some paper egg cartons, but right now we take what we can get.

[Deltadart]

Pahoo have you ever fired round ball from your shotgun?

[Pahoo]

Pahoo have you ever fired round ball from your shotgun?

I have not had the need to do so but have heard and read of some folks doing this. It would have to be a PRB but don't have the shot-string defined. My PRB shooting is pretty much dedicated to my other M/L's ....

Be Safe !!!

[4V50 Gary]

I bet you could use plastic wads from a BP shotgun, but like in-lines, you have to scrub out that plastic residue. Ugggh. I remember getting sheets (chunks) of plastic out from a barrel.

[Deltadart]

Oliver and Gary, I see you guys live in Colorado, I lived in the Springs for 20 years, still lots of family /friends there, hope you guys were not near those fires.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by Deltadart

Pahoo have you ever fired round ball from your shotgun?

I have. A patched .690 round ball in front of 100 grains of powder out of an older Pedersoli. It's quite a thumper out of a shotgun weighing less than 6 pounds. I would have played around with some lighter loads but only had a few round balls.

[Deltadart]

S x S Pedersoli.jpgHow was the accuracy? I was thinking in timber at short range it would be a light weight fast great hunter. Pedersoli does offer a S x S slug gun in 12ga with 25 inch barrels and sights. MY gun is the 20 inch barrel so a little lighter might bounce a little more. Also It says max load is 89 grains of powder so about 75 grains of R/S if you go with the 15% drop for using Pyrodex.

[Hellgate]

I have loaded many LBC wads for black powder cartridges and found that if you make two slices 3/4 of the way down the shot will stay in the cup long enough to give you at least a modified choke pattern from a cylinder bore. Since the cup holds the shot together a higher charge will not blow your pattern. However each time you fire it some of the plastic will be scraped off the cup by the BP fouling and melt into the fouling. After multiple shots you will get a lining of black plastic in the barrel. In a break open cartridge gun this is no big deal as it will come out with spraying in some BP solvent, let it soak a couple minutes then punch out the bores from the rear (using a wadded up 1/2 sheet of paper towel) and out comes a black plastic "snake skin". In a muzzle loader this snake skin might be more problematic to get out without clogging things up.

[Oliver Sudden]

In my experience with plastic wads in a muzzleloader the plastic that Hellgate so clearly describers washes out easily with normal soap and water cleaning.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by Deltadart

Attachment 114447How was the accuracy? I was thinking in timber at short range it would be a light weight fast great hunter. Pedersoli does offer a S x S slug gun in 12ga with 25 inch barrels and sights. MY gun is the 20 inch barrel so a little lighter might bounce a little more. Also It says max load is 89 grains of powder so about 75 grains of R/S if you go with the 15% drop for using Pyrodex.

It wasn't very good. There is no 15% reduction with Pyrodex. It's a volume to volume equivalent.

[Deltadart]

I wonder if 12ga slug like the Lee 7/8oz would be any better than the PBR. I often try to match black powder ballistics with Pyrodex by reducing the charge by 12 to 15%. In this case around 1060 fps for the 1 1/4 oz shot. Fully aware of the 1 to 1 ratio of black to Pyrodex for a safe substitution, and appreciate the claim by them that you get as much as 20% more shots as the Pyrodex has more loft or fluff to it for the volume measure. I am also trying to stretch my powder as far as I can as it is very difficult to get in our neck of the woods and black powder is as rare as a truthful politician.

[noelf2]

For steel shot I use a 1/4 inch felt wad with one side dipped in a melted beeswax/olive oil lube. I use a plastic wad on top of that with the cushion part cut off. My felt becomes the cushion instead, and the plastic is just a shot cup. My pedersoli 12 gauge is also an older one with bores slightly undersized, probably so it could use modern shotshell wads. I don't get any melted plastic issues because the felt protects the plastic and the plastic cup fits tight in the bore. With lead I just use over powder and over shot wads. No cushion at all. You just have to experiment with loads for your particular gun.

[bladesmith 1]

I had shot muzzleloaders since around 1970. I usually shot pistol and some rifle on the national range. Then I made up a trap gun and we'd shoot trap at night under the lights, always using fiber wads. Down there they wouldn't allow plastic wads. Anyways, fast forward to around 2005 and my interest in old American made Damascus barreled SxSs. One time, maybe 10 years ago my friend and I decided to shoot smoke at an event- he with plastic wads, me with fiber. Well I must say his SxS looked awfull funny with all the plastic " snakes " growing out of the end of his barrels after a 100 shots. He had been complaining how it seemed to kick more. You couldn't hardly see down the barrels they were so full of plastic. All those little plastic worms wiggling around in there. Man, I bet his chokes really increased. He said it took him over an hour to clean them.
In that trap gun I made I jug choked it to shoot tighter patterns. I did it at work where I had the time, because it took plenty the way I did it. You want to increase the bore diameter. I did it with a split wooden rod and emery paper wrapped around the rod and spin it with a electric hand drill. You go back in about 7" and make it bigger coming toward the muzzle for 5", then it's back to bore diameter again. This gives the shot a chance to open up, then when it's forced back to bore diameter, it's like a choke acting on it. With a jug choke the bore isn't smaller at the muzzle making it harder to load. It may not work if you have chrome lined bores. First I'd try some home made paper unslit [ or just maybe two slits ] wads. Be a lot easier and less time consuming. Just how far do you want tight patterns, how tight, and what will you be shooting ? JMHO, but if you're gonna shoot plastic wads in a MLer, you might just as well shoot a modern gun. No offense mind you. Good luck. Paul

[bladesmith 1]

I think if you shoot very much at all you'll find that wool/felt/fiber wad doesn't completely protect the plastic shot cup from melting. Fiber wads let some of the gases and pressure leak around them and the HOT BP will melt most plastics. The reason I claim this is because back when plastic wads first came out the powder companies recommend a 10% decrease in powder if using plastic wads instead of fiber because they sealed better.
The newer plastic cups around bullets for inlines have been formulated after they first came out, so that wouldn't happen. I can still remembering when the inline/plastic cups first came out and guys would come out to the rifle range and after three shots couldn't ram them down the barrel without cleaning. I don't believe shotgun shell wad manufactures went to the same troubles seeing how they aren't made for BP, but nitro. It's up to you, but no plastic for me.

[Deltadart]

Bladesmith
Thanks for the info. I too have shot on and off with muzzleloaders since 1970. Never did much with shotguns. I have this Pedersoli which is a beautiful gun however the 20 inch barrels and cyl x cyl are pretty open at 25 yds. I don't know that a pheasant could get out of it, but a quail might. I was just trying to see if I could improve the range by 10 or 15yds. The LBC wads are very tuff plastic. They are uncut and require a cut of at least 3/4 way down the tube to open up at all. I have tried 4 cuts so far and have been using RS to shoot it saving my BP for the rifles. With no 4 buck it would be a mean home defense gun with felt wads. The weather has finally started to warm up so I will be playing around with it a lot more now. Always fun to find an excuse to shoot even if it does not improve still a lot of fun to try. Tried a couple days ago with one of the Remington NMAs and I could not feel my hands after about 30 minutes.

[bladesmith 1]

As Hawg said, try some home made paper shot cups. I would have to think something heavy like the cover on a spiral notepad would do the trick. Ya, the weather here in Michigan got kind a cold. If I wanted to, the local club I belong to is almost deserted with this cold weather. I could go down to the pistol building, which is heated, and if no one was there, load up my NMAs or MLing shotguns, step out back on the range [ up to 25 yds ], and test fire them. I'm already over there three days a week running shotgun, so I try and limit other days over there - the wife, you know.

[noelf2]

I think if you shoot very much at all you'll find that wool/felt/fiber wad doesn't completely protect the plastic shot cup from melting.

I mostly shoot without plastic at all, but when I shoot steel shot, I don't experience any melted plastic from the plastic shot cup I use. I think that modern plastic wads used in a 12 gauge muzzleloader are a bit undersized for the bore. They are made to fit tightly in a plastic hull, not an actual 12 bore. So, the bore size can have an effect on melting from excessive gas blow-by. My shotgun has a smaller bore, so the cup is actually a very tight fit. The felt wad and cup, in my situation, doesn't allow much if any gas blow-by. It depends on the gun. If yours works, awesome. If not, try something else. That's the fun in working up loads.

As a side note, I load 20 gauge magtech brass hulls using 16 gauge plastic wads. Magtech brass bulls have thin walls so 20 gauge plastic wads are way too loose. I do clean out some plastic with those, but not much (not a tough chore). I guess it gets scraped out with the successive shots, and the 16 gauge wad is a tight fit in the bore.