hit factor/%

RickB · March 26, 2001, 03:21 PM

Can anyone give me some idea of how my 6.54 hit factor on Speed-E-Standards (99-49) will translate into a percentage when it hits the board on April 15th? It was 68% of a Master's score yesterday, but I have no way of gauging how he was shooting.

TVDean · March 26, 2001, 04:12 PM

Good shooting!

Scooter2 · March 27, 2001, 01:46 AM

Considering that most masters will shoot it in the mid 9's at least in my area. The GM will probably be breaking into the 10's. It would definitely come up as a low B or high C. But not an A. I shot it twice in March so I'm waiting to see how it stands up also. Hoping to move up into B class for Limited.

kbear38S · March 27, 2001, 08:33 AM

Open or limited?

The HHF for CM 99-49 in open is about 11.50.

RickB · March 27, 2001, 12:30 PM

Limited 10, actually; I don't know that Limited and L10 are any different at this point. I need 54% to move up in class.

kbear38S · March 27, 2001, 01:09 PM

I wouldn't expect Limited 10 or Limited to be a too much lower. Probably a high 10. An open gun isn't much of an advantage on that classifier. It's all draw, index, and reload.

You're probably in the 60-65% range.

Let us know how you make out.

Ron Ankeny · March 27, 2001, 03:59 PM

kbear38s:

Just curious, how did you come up with the HHF? As you know, USPSA considers high hit factors to be the Holy Gail of shooting, forever hidden from the eyes of mere mortals.

Scooter2 · March 27, 2001, 05:53 PM

You can usually figure out what the HHF are. Just look at your HF for that stage and what USPSA scored it as and do a little math and there it is. If you get really bored, you can go through various club web pages that have results and cross check it with USPSA scores for any body that shot the classifier.

kbear38S · March 28, 2001, 08:33 AM

What Scooter2 said...

% = HF / HHF so if you've shot a stage and know your % and the HF used to calculate it, then HHF = HF / %.

Ron Ankeny · March 28, 2001, 03:28 PM

Yeah, I figured that out after I posted my dumb question. I also noticed on the USPSA Web site that they will take leagal action against anyone who divulges the HHF. Run and hide Kbear.

RickB · March 28, 2001, 03:57 PM

Although USPSA doesn't publicize HHF, it's obviously very easy for anyone who keeps track of their own hit factor, to calculate the high. I'd be very surprised if there weren't lots of shooters who maintain their own database of classifier scores, and calculate their own classification % more often than the once-per-month posted by USPSA.

Scooter2 · March 28, 2001, 11:51 PM

The only thing is the HHF can change throughout the year. What USPSA does is they get a couple of the top shooters to shoot a new classifier. That would set the HHF. Now with some practice and maybe a little luck, someone beats the HHF, then the HHF is changed to the higher score.

RickB · April 18, 2001, 11:39 AM

Well, I know you've all been waiting with bated breath to find out if I moved up in class . . . yessiree, Bob. My 68% match score translated into a 65% on the big board, and I moved comfortably into B class, at 62%. Okay, now another question: I really like L10, and I'd rather not shoot Limited just to improve my classification in that division - can I shoot a match L10, but submit the classifier as Limited? Or, just shop around for Special Classifier matches, and shoot those Limited?

mattjoe · April 18, 2001, 02:12 PM

uspsa will take legal action against anyone who publishes the high hit factors?
That is just FUNNY!
I'd love to see what legal theory they could come up with to sue someone who sat down and did the math.
Considering HHF is public knowledge, because of the simple math involved to figure it out, I can only imagine the same people who told them to hold the nationals year after year in BORING BARRY told them to put that stupid quote on the page. Or maybe they were just following the advice of the people who told them to buy land in a swamp, I mean flood plain.

kbear38S · April 19, 2001, 07:42 AM

The reason the USPSA protects HHF is to keep other shooting organizations from using them to classify their shooters in the absence of their own classification system.

mattjoe · April 19, 2001, 11:14 AM

shooting limited 10 gun in limited is ok. You'd just declare that on your score sheet. You could also shoot a production class gun in limited if you felt like it. Which could be advantageous to you if you were shooting something like a 45, which is making major, but would automatically be scored as minor in production.

As for the reasons HHF is kept "secret" that isnt the issue- the issue is, what crazy legal theory would they actually attempt to get into court with if someone did the math and shared these with his shooting buddies?
I dare say USPSA could present no legal theory that could survive a summary judgment hearing.
The statement of entertaining legal action against those who use simple math to figure out the hit factors just appears arrogant on that page.

Scooter2 · April 19, 2001, 04:56 PM

Let's look at another issue. If someone released all the HHF's you will start getting more and more sandbaggers in each category. After all, this is a game. You are always going to have people that will purposely drop shots in a classifier to remain in a lower category. By knowing the HHF, you will know exactly how much you need to lose in the classifier to remain in your category. I think that's why USPSA drops your classifier if it is below your class.

RickB · April 20, 2001, 04:44 PM

I actually can't imagine sandbagging for one reason: It would screw up my match score. It's the East German Olympic team mentality that would make someone feel good about cheating, and still winning. I reverse-sandbagged my way from C to B, by shooting a couple of matches in Limited Division, so my L10 classification wouldn't be hurt if I had a bad day prior to the middle of the month! While I might change my mind now that I'm going to be taking it in the shorts in B class rather than winning C, I can take my classification with me wherever I go, while a class win lasts only until the next match.

WESHOOT2 · April 21, 2001, 06:17 AM

Cheaters suck in any sport.

-------------------------------

"all my handguns are IPSC handguns"

Ron Ankeny · April 21, 2001, 07:02 PM

I was just giving kbear a ration about the HHF. USPSA has a long explanation of why they don't divulge the HHF. I would like to know what the HHFs are so I can use some of my classifiers as benchmarks or standards in order to make goals for improvement based upon the potential for moving up in class. Does that make sense?

TVDean · April 21, 2001, 09:22 PM

walangkatapat · April 23, 2001, 01:26 AM

Rick B, Are you going to shoot the Oregon Singlestack Championship this year?

TVDean · April 23, 2001, 10:38 PM

He can't wait!!

March 26, 2001, 04:12 PM	#2
TVDean Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 1999 Posts: 173	Gotta be "A" class man........ Good shooting!

April 21, 2001, 09:22 PM	#21
TVDean Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 1999 Posts: 173	Absolutely!

April 23, 2001, 01:26 AM	#22
walangkatapat Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 1999 Posts: 300	Rick B, Are you going to shoot the Oregon Singlestack Championship this year? __________________ "Gun Control is Only to Protect Those in Power"

April 23, 2001, 10:38 PM	#23
TVDean Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 1999 Posts: 173	If I may......... He can't wait!!

March 26, 2001, 03:21 PM	#1
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Can anyone give me some idea of how my 6.54 hit factor on Speed-E-Standards (99-49) will translate into a percentage when it hits the board on April 15th? It was 68% of a Master's score yesterday, but I have no way of gauging how he was shooting.

March 27, 2001, 01:46 AM	#3
Scooter2 Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2001 Posts: 115	Considering that most masters will shoot it in the mid 9's at least in my area. The GM will probably be breaking into the 10's. It would definitely come up as a low B or high C. But not an A. I shot it twice in March so I'm waiting to see how it stands up also. Hoping to move up into B class for Limited.

March 27, 2001, 08:33 AM	#4
kbear38S Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2000 Posts: 154	Open or limited? The HHF for CM 99-49 in open is about 11.50.

March 27, 2001, 12:30 PM	#5
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Limited 10, actually; I don't know that Limited and L10 are any different at this point. I need 54% to move up in class.

March 27, 2001, 01:09 PM	#6
kbear38S Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2000 Posts: 154	I wouldn't expect Limited 10 or Limited to be a too much lower. Probably a high 10. An open gun isn't much of an advantage on that classifier. It's all draw, index, and reload. You're probably in the 60-65% range. Let us know how you make out.

March 27, 2001, 03:59 PM	#7
Ron Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2000 Posts: 316	kbear38s: Just curious, how did you come up with the HHF? As you know, USPSA considers high hit factors to be the Holy Gail of shooting, forever hidden from the eyes of mere mortals.

March 27, 2001, 05:53 PM	#8
Scooter2 Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2001 Posts: 115	You can usually figure out what the HHF are. Just look at your HF for that stage and what USPSA scored it as and do a little math and there it is. If you get really bored, you can go through various club web pages that have results and cross check it with USPSA scores for any body that shot the classifier.

March 28, 2001, 08:33 AM	#9
kbear38S Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2000 Posts: 154	What Scooter2 said... % = HF / HHF so if you've shot a stage and know your % and the HF used to calculate it, then HHF = HF / %.

March 28, 2001, 03:28 PM	#10
Ron Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2000 Posts: 316	Yeah, I figured that out after I posted my dumb question. I also noticed on the USPSA Web site that they will take leagal action against anyone who divulges the HHF. Run and hide Kbear.

March 28, 2001, 03:57 PM	#11
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Although USPSA doesn't publicize HHF, it's obviously very easy for anyone who keeps track of their own hit factor, to calculate the high. I'd be very surprised if there weren't lots of shooters who maintain their own database of classifier scores, and calculate their own classification % more often than the once-per-month posted by USPSA.

March 28, 2001, 11:51 PM	#12
Scooter2 Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2001 Posts: 115	The only thing is the HHF can change throughout the year. What USPSA does is they get a couple of the top shooters to shoot a new classifier. That would set the HHF. Now with some practice and maybe a little luck, someone beats the HHF, then the HHF is changed to the higher score.

April 18, 2001, 11:39 AM	#13
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Well, I know you've all been waiting with bated breath to find out if I moved up in class . . . yessiree, Bob. My 68% match score translated into a 65% on the big board, and I moved comfortably into B class, at 62%. Okay, now another question: I really like L10, and I'd rather not shoot Limited just to improve my classification in that division - can I shoot a match L10, but submit the classifier as Limited? Or, just shop around for Special Classifier matches, and shoot those Limited?

April 18, 2001, 02:12 PM	#14
mattjoe Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2001 Location: in my house or at the gun club Posts: 109	uspsa will take legal action against anyone who publishes the high hit factors? That is just FUNNY! I'd love to see what legal theory they could come up with to sue someone who sat down and did the math. Considering HHF is public knowledge, because of the simple math involved to figure it out, I can only imagine the same people who told them to hold the nationals year after year in BORING BARRY told them to put that stupid quote on the page. Or maybe they were just following the advice of the people who told them to buy land in a swamp, I mean flood plain.

April 19, 2001, 07:42 AM	#15
kbear38S Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2000 Posts: 154	The reason the USPSA protects HHF is to keep other shooting organizations from using them to classify their shooters in the absence of their own classification system.

April 19, 2001, 11:14 AM	#16
mattjoe Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2001 Location: in my house or at the gun club Posts: 109	shooting limited 10 gun in limited is ok. You'd just declare that on your score sheet. You could also shoot a production class gun in limited if you felt like it. Which could be advantageous to you if you were shooting something like a 45, which is making major, but would automatically be scored as minor in production. As for the reasons HHF is kept "secret" that isnt the issue- the issue is, what crazy legal theory would they actually attempt to get into court with if someone did the math and shared these with his shooting buddies? I dare say USPSA could present no legal theory that could survive a summary judgment hearing. The statement of entertaining legal action against those who use simple math to figure out the hit factors just appears arrogant on that page.

April 19, 2001, 04:56 PM	#17
Scooter2 Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2001 Posts: 115	Let's look at another issue. If someone released all the HHF's you will start getting more and more sandbaggers in each category. After all, this is a game. You are always going to have people that will purposely drop shots in a classifier to remain in a lower category. By knowing the HHF, you will know exactly how much you need to lose in the classifier to remain in your category. I think that's why USPSA drops your classifier if it is below your class.

April 20, 2001, 04:44 PM	#18
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	I actually can't imagine sandbagging for one reason: It would screw up my match score. It's the East German Olympic team mentality that would make someone feel good about cheating, and still winning. I reverse-sandbagged my way from C to B, by shooting a couple of matches in Limited Division, so my L10 classification wouldn't be hurt if I had a bad day prior to the middle of the month! While I might change my mind now that I'm going to be taking it in the shorts in B class rather than winning C, I can take my classification with me wherever I go, while a class win lasts only until the next match.

April 21, 2001, 06:17 AM	#19
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Cheaters suck in any sport. ------------------------------- "all my handguns are IPSC handguns"

April 21, 2001, 07:02 PM	#20
Ron Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2000 Posts: 316	I was just giving kbear a ration about the HHF. USPSA has a long explanation of why they don't divulge the HHF. I would like to know what the HHFs are so I can use some of my classifiers as benchmarks or standards in order to make goals for improvement based upon the potential for moving up in class. Does that make sense?