Crimes Stopped By Brandishing - Does Caliber Matter?

[ChrisWNY]

Yeah, I agree, I think I would've used a bit more discretion before firing. The guy (young teacher from Albany) in the home was drunk and stumbling around, I think that should've been fairly easy to recognize, and I'm pretty sure I would know if someone was drunk and aimlessly stumbling around or intended on burglarizing my home/putting my family in jeopardy. The law was on the homeowner's side in this case, as it should when an intruder enters your home. Both clearly made mistakes - the homeowner failed to lock his door, and the drunk guy should have never been in that home in the first place. Tragic situation, the homeowner could still face a drawn-out civil suit and will have to live with knowing he shot a guy who was too impaired to realize what he was doing.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

She grabbed the gun when to the door and went CHA-CHIN. She said the guy practically fell down the stairs trying to get out of the building. There is no mistaking that sound.

I assume this means - grabbed to the gun, went to the door and then racked.

I suggest, that if this means a deliberate plan to go to a door, open it and then rack - it was ill advised. Or be near a door - so the sound could be heard?

The guy did run away. On the other hand, a dedicated opponent might have shot you at door opening or watching you manipulate the gun. Or, if you needed the gun immediately on opening the door - you are out of luck.

If the sound effect works, all well and good. However, deliberately putting yourself in danger for a sound effect is not a plan.

When the gun comes to your hands, you should make it ready to fire.

The best sound effect is a siren. But you can from a good position, yell:

I've got a gun. The Police are on the way. GET OUT!

[Mike-Mat]

"a deliberate plan to go to a door, open it and then rack - it was ill advised."

Did I say "Opened the Door". No! Why would you open the door when you know there is an intruder on the other side? How stupid is that! You don't have to open the door, or even stand in front of the door to be heard.

"The best sound effect is a siren."
You wanted her to make a siren sound? Or call the police and wait 40 minutes for them to get there? This guy was only going to be there for 5-10 seconds, UNLESS he found an open door. Then it was robbery time. You couldn't even get the police on the phone in the time it took this guy to move down the hallway shaking door knobs.

BTW: The door knob was never shaken again. Non violent, non confrontational and executed from a safe distance. Problem solved.

The point is... the unmistakable sound of racking a shotgun eliminated a potential threat/crime.
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I wish the OP hadn't used the word "Brandishing" in the title. It creates the image of someone waving a gun in the air, yelling "Stay Away, I'm Packin' ". I dont think that was his point at all. I also don't think any one on this forum bought their gun with the hopes of shooting a BG. I'm pretty sure they bought them with the idea of detering a BG. I think the idea is that in the rare and unavoidable situation where you or your loved ones are being threatened, you can unholster your side arm and in a ready, yet downward pointed position, let the threat know your not looking for any problems.

In that situation... does size matter? That's the OP's question.

Mike Mattera

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Why would you approach the door to make a sound effect?

BTW, calling the police first is best. Also, we have a loud alarm that sounds like the wrath of God that we can trigger from inside the house.

I know no one likes to be criticized if they think they did something that worked. But one doesn't post if you don't want critiques.

You don't go to the door and rack. You rack when the gun comes to your hand. You stay away from the door but adopt a position to cover it. You give appropriate warnings from a safe position.

Given most economic criminals would be deterred by any clear warning, the magic shotgun rack used in a tactically risky manner is not without critique.

On another forum, the old debate of charging into battle rather than hunkering down was raised. One of the usual reasons for not hunkering is that the police are X time away , so you have to take the risk. The moderator replied - why can't you wait an half hour - you gotta poop?

It's a good question, why not wait in a safe place?

[Crosshair]

You're really not helping Double Naught Spy

My logic is: if a majority of crimes are averted by simply drawing a gun, why not opt for a smaller caliber?

Well, you could just not bother loading your gun if most crimes are going to be averted by simply drawing a gun. Think of all the weight savings.

What is the point of such a ridiculous statement? The OP is asking legitimate questions about smaller guns.

I also don't want to tote a .45 around with me all day long - especially in the SC heat and humidity.
Okay, so convencience and comfort supercede self defense for you and your family.

Yes it does. The OP isn't going to Baghdad. A gun that is too large and too heavy to be comfortably carried will be left at home. a 32 in your pocket does a lot more good than a 45 that gets left at home. most people aren't carrying an M4 all day. They have other things that they need to do and they can't be constantly worrying about their gun being uncomfortable or printing. If they do then the gun will be left at home.

(Nobody I know wants to take 3 or 4 hits from any type ammo, even .22 short )
What makes you think you are going to be able to hit anyone with 3-4 hits?

However, since you mentioned 3-4 hits, if you did have to shoot in self defense, would you rather land 4 shots of .45 on the bad guy or 4 shots of .22 short? Which do you think would be more likely to stop the bad guy?

The OP would probably rather land 3-4 shots of 12 gauge OO buckshot, but that aint gonna happen. If you don't have the gun with you then it doesn't matter how good you are with it. I'd rather hit the BG 3 times with a .32 than point my finger at him because I left my .45 at home because it's too heavy and I can't conceal it well.

I'm more interested in if the convenience (purchase price, ammo cost, ease of carry) of a smaller caliber handgun outweighs it's lack of stopping power?
I would be more concerned with the opposite end of the problem...if carrying a more convenient smaller caliber handgun that is more lacking in stopping power outweighs the value of my life and the lives of my loved ones.

How much good does that .45 do you if you can't hit anything with it because you can't afford to shoot it much? Not everyone is going to Baghdad and not everyone can spend 25% of their income on guns. The OP is NOT getting dressed to go to the afternoon gunfight. if he was he wouldn't be asking about handgun choice.

[B.N.Real]

True story.

The day before the Million Man March in Washington D.C.

A Sunday.

My wife and I go to a state park inacross from Occoquan Va.to fish like we did alot in those days in our brand new Honda bright red Civic with the alloy rims.

This car got us ALOT of attention.

Unwanted attention.

I started carrying my Mauser HSC 380 just as a precaution.

Well,we fished all day and had a nice time and the day grew to a close.

It was about five thirty,I guess,when we started to go to the car.

The lot was pretty empty that day.

Kind of strange actually because that park was usually very busy.

No matter I thought.

We continued to walk towards out bright red brand new Honda.

Then I saw the car.

There was a car parked in this practically empty parking lot ,right next to ours.

The smell coming out of the car was unmistakeable.

These guy were smoking pot.

Hey,means little to me actually because ,well,teenaged years,blah blah blah.

But then as we reached the back of our brand new Honda,the music inside the car was turned off and the passenger side passenger in front looked into his mirror watching our every move.

There was also movement from the driver and a passenger in the back of the car indicating they were about to get out of the car and confront us.

I don't know what made the ex marine whose gun shop in Triangle I used to go to named Archie, I used to go to ,who convinced me to buy this pistol but on this day,at this time,if I had not had that pistol,we would have been car jacked.

I am sure of it.

Thank You Archie,where ever in heaven I am sure,you are.

I already had the shiny nickel plated HSC loaded and ready.

It was in my right blue jeans pants pocket.

I picked it out of my pocket and snapped off the safety.

I then slowly pulled it up from my pocket and tipped it into my shirt pocket so the passenger could defintiely see ,he was about to get something he was never expecting.

I told my wife to get in the car and readied myself for a gunfight if necessary.

But it never came to that.

The guys in the car never got out.

As a matter of fact,they drew away from the doors when the passenger saw my HSC come out of my pocket.

He said something to the guys in the cars as soon as I put that Mauser in my shirt pocket.

We left that park very quickly and sold the car soon after.

On that day,it did'nt matter that my Mauser was extremely tempermental about the cartridges it steadfastly refused to chamber-all that mattered was that I had it with me-that the bad guys saw it and that they realized that I was one 'victim' that was'nt going to go down easy.

And I owe it all to my buddy Archie,who saw a young gun fan and convinced him to buy a quality gun he did'nt really want to buy that day.

Thanks ex Marine tough guy Archie,you saved our lives.

[abelacres]

From what I've seen on this thread the general consenses is-

Rational people don't want to be shot, so the point is moot on the size of the gun.

Irrational people don't care if they get shot, so the point is moot on the size of the gun, and the question becomes stopping the attack.



Also, any gun is better than no gun provided you can use it accuratly and swiftly.

Just remember the old saying 'Instead of rising to the occasion, you will fall back to your highest level of training'

****In answer to the analogy "There is no replacement for displacement" I've personally seen a 4.3L V6 dragster run 6.50s in a 1/8th mile track. That being said, I heard a first hand account from a LEO about a man shot IN THE HEAD at a distance of less than 6ft with a .32 pocket pistol. The round penetrated the skin but not the skull. When LEOs arrived, the man was standing in the street smoking a cigarette with a bullet stuck under his skin above his left eye.

IMO, shoot what you've got until you run out of ammo- that should at least slow the attacker down enough you can run away.

[Mike-Mat]

Never mind.

===================

abelacres: Good assessment of the replies in this thread.

[HoraceHogsnort]

GoodSouthernBoy wrote: "I wouldn't want to go up against a 300 lb. drunk man charging at me with only a .32. But, I also don't plan on putting myself or my family anywhere near a place I fear that I might run up against a 300 lb. drunk man."

And just how do you plan on avoiding that? Are there signs in the town where you live stating "300LB Drunk In This Area"? None of us know when we are going to be threatened or what the nature of the threat is going to be. If I'm prepared to defend myself against a seventy five year old woman coming at me with an "assault umbrella" then a "mouse gun" will most likely handle the situation if I can't outrun the old girl. If my assailant, on the other hand, is a 300LB meth head displaying murderous intent then I'd just as soon respond with something a bit more substantial, thank you. Yes, yes, I know SHOT PLACEMENT is king, I've heard that mantra over and over ad naseum. Given my 'druthers, I'd just as soon make a well placed shot using a 45 caliber gun rather than a 25 caliber device. YMMV

[HoraceHogsnort]

Magnum Wheel Man wrote: "I also feel that you are probably actually in more danger of serious injury or death carrying a gun if you couldn't kill someone quickly & without hesitation if need be, than if you were unarmed completely & complied with the bad guys demands fully..."

And if you are in fact disarmed and your assailent says "Take a hike Jack your wife and daughter are going with me"?

[Mike-Mat]

Size is a balance act. It's somewhere between having a Hog's leg in you belt and a 22 pop gun in your pocket. It's really something that can be concealed and carried comfortably on your frame, yet be effective enough when you need it. Your trying to prepare for a situation that you cant predict. Everyone likes to talk about stopping power, penetration and shock waves. Yes that's good to consider also.

I shoot 38Spl/.357, 9mm and 380. All of which use approximately the same size bullet. While it would be nice to have the knock down power to stop the worst drug crazed BG, I believe that when most people start leaking bodily fluids from a .356 dia. hole in their body, they start to reconsider their notions of aggression.

a .32 just seemed to small. I bought an NAA Guardian in 380. Small and easy to conceal. Bright Stainless Steel for when you want it to be visible. I believe 6 shots from this will stop all but the worst crazies. I hope to God that I'm never put in that situation. But in the mean time I prepare myself for the worst and hope for the best.

Mike Mattera

[ChrisWNY]

Ironically the episode of Mythbusters that ran yesterday evening busted the myth that a "large and muscular" guy could be more bullet proof/bullet-resistant than a smaller, skinnier guy. A Glock .45 was used for the test, I don't remember the exact distance they used but I think it was around 10-15 feet. The Mythbusters guys filled a 4-5 ft. long tube full of the toughest chuck steaks they could find, placed the tube in front of a dummy (ballistics gel was also used), then fired the Glock .45 - bullet went right through the dense tube of steak, as well as the dummy, without any issues whatsoever. Proves that muscle mass and/or flesh does nothing to stop .45 ammo.

[briandg]

I'd like to add that this situation and thread assumes something; that you have only one choice. I am fully in agreement that there has to be a weapon present for it to be effective. Any minute that you are away from your home, office, car, or any other place that you have a ready weapon, is a minute during which your destiny is totally out of your own hands.

Carrying a small weapon, one simply must carry the most powerful cartridge feasible. A .22 or .25 ACP is armed, but against an opponent who intends to KILL you, or cause other physical harm, as opposed to someone who just wants your wallet, you are not well represented. Even several hits from these microbore weapons are not going to disrupt a determined opponent's functioning well enough to neutralize him as a threat.

I consider the minimum defensive round to be .32 or .380.

But, this really is beside the point of my post.

There is a need for compact combat/defensive weapons among you guys who live in shorts, tshirts, and sandals most of the year. buy your .32 and carry it religiously, unless you do, it's pointless to own it.

But, realize also that this weapon may not be enough to save your life. All of the people who say "3 or 4 rounds of *** will stop" are assuming an awful lot. You should expect the worst, and plan for the worst, instead of just assuming that you'll empty your handgun into the bad guy before he shoots you in the head.

Any concealed weapon carrier who has to have a compact should take the extra step, and buy and carry a capable weapon in off season, when concealment is easier.

In simple terms, carry your compact when you have no other choice, but it's not a smart use of your assets to stick a .32 in your pocket when you can have a 9mm under your jacket.

Own two, and be better prepared for the possible times when you really, seriously, will be facing a threat to your life.

Not all armed confrontations are equal, and you must prepare for the worst case.

[5Wire]

Here are some snatches pertinent to the original post.

Incidents where victims use a gun defensively are almost never gunfights where both parties shoot at one another. Only 24% of the incidents involved the defender firing their gun, and only 16% involved the defender shooting at their adversary.[89] In only 4.5% of the cases did the offender shoot at the defender.[90] Consequently, it is not surprising that only 3% of all the incidents involved both parties shooting at each other.

Armed Resistance to Crime:
The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun

Here are some more links and snips (DGU=Defensive Gun Use):

Percent Injured after Self Protection Action
(SP = Self Protection Action. O = Offender)


ACTION_____________________ROBBERY_____ASSAULT
Any SP with gun_______________7.7%________3.6%
Chased, tried to catch O______9.6%________9.0%
Ran/drove away; tried to______4.9%________5.4%
Screamed from pain, fear_____22.0%_______12.6%
Threatened O without weapon__15.8%_______13.6%
No SP measures at all________23.6%_______55.2%

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/other/NCVS.html

Next to running away, having a gun is the most successful means of self defense during a robbery but having a gun is most effective during an assault.

Fewer than one percent of DGUs result in killings or woundings of anyone.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html

While innocent bystanders may be victimized by errant gunfire, their deaths or injuries are far more likely to have been caused by the criminals' use of firearms, not from defensive use by citizens. The "protector" hardly ever fires a gun.

[Mike-Mat]

5Wire: Good Stuff. That's what I was looking for.

Also from that web site....
"Every 13 seconds an American gun owner uses a firearm in defense against a criminal."

"91.7% of the time the weapon is NEVER FIRED."

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html

Other snippets of information from the same site, regarding Kids and guns.

"Here's what a 1995 federal study investigating juvenile crime found after looking at 20,000 randomly selected households:"

Relationship between type of gun owned and percent committing street, drug and gun crimes.

Illegal gun:
Street crimes = 74%
Drug use = 41%
Gun crimes = 21%

No gun:
Street crimes = 24%
Drug use = 15%
Gun crimes = 1%

Legal Gun:
Street crimes = 14%
Drug use = 13%
Gun crimes = 0%

"Teach Your Children Well" - Crosby Still & Nash

Mike Mattera

[5Wire]

Glad it helped, Mike-Mat. Here's a good starting place: download one of the PDFs and use the document's internal links to find more useful stuff.

[Bart Noir]

Magnum guy,

my thoughts here are not just the bore or caliber, but actually the size of the gun... & actually the guns visability to the BG... a larger ( lets say Berretta 92 F ? in polished nickel is likely going to be a bigger deterant than a flat black 1911... from the stand point that its more visible in the kind of light often chosen for these confrontations... in a dark alley, the bore ( or seeing that hollowpoint all the way down in the chamber ) is going to be way less of a deterant than a polished & easily visible "big gun"

My friend was a rookie cop, long ago, and the experienced partner told him that shiny guns were more effective in keeping the peace, in some areas and social groups. Sure enough, one night they rolled to a fight call in one of those certain bars and the older officer locked his sixgun into the glove box, taking out a nickle-plated duplicate. They went into the bar with that shiny magnum on his hip. This was a department that let officers pick their own revolver, as long as the caliber started with "4".

Bart Noir

[Amin Parker]

I have been in 8 situations where i needed to fire my handguns.

I live in South Africa. Over here if you draw a gun on someone he dares you to shoot, waits for 2 seconds and comes running at you to grab your gun.

I have friends that have been disarmed this way and have experienced it myself. If you have reason to draw your gun, use it. Do not lift up your t shirt and put your hand on it, keep it concealed and draw from concealment and fire.

I have found that a 38 revolver is the most intimidating weapon. I suspect many bad guys think you may be holding a toy gun if they see a pistol. With a revolver the rounds and visible. Just my opinion