February 20, 2010, 07:16 PM | #1 |
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3 failures
I hope this isn't deemed the wrong area for this.
Today I decided to shoot my home brewed 10MM load into water to see if it opens up. The first one shot into a 55 gallon plastic drum filled 1/2 way with water didn't open, wow! So I tried another home loaded HP, same result, and finally I tried commercial Winchester Western JHP defense load with the same result. Left to right; Winchester Silvertip 175 grain JHP, 165 grain Montana Gold JHP over 11.5 grains of AA7 , and an unknown brand of 180 grain JHP over 10.5 grains AA7. I really expected better results, and this somewhat tempers the arguments for 9MM which really needs to open to be effective. Granted none of these are 9MM, but these are all pretty hot loads!
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February 20, 2010, 07:33 PM | #2 |
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Do you have a water softener at your house?
The results you got are REALLY bad and I'm at a lose to explain what's going on.
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February 20, 2010, 08:17 PM | #3 |
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Shoot at something with at least the consistency of Jello. Not ALL JHP's will open up, even the name brand stuff, but at least 75% of all shots should.
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February 20, 2010, 09:03 PM | #4 |
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Of course I wondered if a thicker medium would work better, but still,,,
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February 20, 2010, 09:59 PM | #5 |
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Try a different water test. Try taking 6 gallon milk jugs & fill em with water. Line em up one in front of the other. (I usually. Put em on a 2x6 to keep em stable). Shoot from 10 feet. Hit center of the first jug. End result is normally a perfect mushroom that is found in the 3rd or 4th jug.
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February 20, 2010, 11:56 PM | #6 | |
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February 21, 2010, 01:20 AM | #7 |
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Also try placing an old no good pair of blue jeans over whatever you shoot at. I've seen several test where expansion was a lot better when it went through somewhat thick clothing first.
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February 21, 2010, 09:38 AM | #8 |
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failure
I know that balistics labs used to recover bullets by firing into large tanks of water and they needed the bullet intact. I use water filled milk jugs backed by packed, wet newprint as test media and get good results. Not an exact reproduction of flesh and organs but a repeatable comparison.
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February 21, 2010, 10:03 AM | #9 |
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if bullets won't expand in water, they certainly won't expand in flesh. Water is the ultimate test of a bullet's integrity. The problem here is the fact that the OP is using a heavy-duty THICK plastic industrial drum.
Try shooting the bullets INTO the 55gal drum from above. There's a guy on youtube who tests all of his ammo that way OR Try using a "Fackler Box" [Google it] using Ziplock storage baggies mounted in a 4' trough for better results. W-W Silvertip and Hornady's XTP have a most excellent reputation for good expansion and deep penetration
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February 21, 2010, 10:38 AM | #10 |
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The plastic in the drum is probably clogging the cavity and slowing the bullet down just enough. I have fired many brands of hollow points into water filled milk jugs and they all expanded perfectly. Most went through 3 jugs and stopped in the 4th. Heavy clothing will usually clog the cavity and reduce expansion greatly. I have also fired HP bullets into solid ice and they expanded about halfway.
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February 21, 2010, 11:08 AM | #11 |
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There is something wrong here.
Water is a great medium to test rounds in. The following are photos of WIN silver tips fired from a Charter arms bulldog into water. This is a 44 special out of a 3 inch barrel at less than 850 FPS. All were over 3/4's inch dia. This was done by the Indiana state police ballistic technician and they use nothing but a water tank for testing rounds. This is so that they can see the expansion and at the same time, hard medium like plastic bottles don’t affect the rifling marks. I totally disagree with using milk bottles, the body seldom has millimeters thick plastic material covering flesh. Bottles work I won’t argue with that but saying that they work better than simply firing into water,, (sorry for the pun) doesn’t hold water. The question I have is, did the gun seem to fire normally? If you were pointing straight down you could get a less than normal discharge since the powder was not making contact with the primer hole. That would explain the hand loads but not the factory. I have worked up some loads for a friends 10mm and we shot them into a 55 gal drum of water and got speculator expansion. I would try a wet phone book/s or the milk jugs and see if you get the same results, that way your gun will be horizontal. http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...7&d=1168096882 |
February 21, 2010, 04:44 PM | #12 | |
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CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued. |
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February 21, 2010, 04:56 PM | #13 | |
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I think anyone who believes their super duper HP will make up for small diameter caliber should be doing some tests of their own instead of relying on someone else's tests. I carry a .380 Kel-Tec with .380 MagTec HP's. I took two 1 gallon milk jugs and shot one with round nosed FMJ and one with the MagTec. The jug shot with the MagTec exploded! The backside of what was left showed a hole where the balance of the bullet penetrated through as well. Two points; 1. We don't know that they will expand! 2. If they don't expand they are considerably less effective than a large caliber bullet that doesn't expand. A bullet that goes through the target is not imparting all of it's energy where it's needed.
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CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued. |
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February 21, 2010, 05:30 PM | #14 |
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or try a Fackler Box
shoot the bullets into the water from the top.
Industrial 55gal plastic drums are extremely thick and dense
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February 21, 2010, 08:02 PM | #15 |
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A one gallon jug is not going to stop any bullet I know of. The plastic used in a milk jug is so thin it is not imparting much resistance to the bullet. As I said before, every single type of hollow point I have fired into a row of 7 or 8 jugs expanded perfectly. The no 1 jug exploded and was shredded into small pieces and the entry hole into the next jug showed clearly the bullet had opend up. This includes Gold Dots, Hydra Shoks, Black Talons, XTPs, Golden Sabers, etc. Hollow points will expand in water if the velocity is where it needs to be. Your test medium is the problem, not the bullets. I can't explain exactly what those barrels are doing to the bullets but I believe they are what's causing them to not open. The resistance of breaking through is slowing the bullet down and the thick plastic is probably holding the cavity closed as it passes through. You didn't find any plastic in the cavity most likely because the water flushed it out. The fact that the bullet didn't exit the opposite side of the barrel suggests to me the bullet lost a great deal of velocity breaking through the front side. Try it again with a row of 4 or 5 thin plastic water or milk jugs and tell us what happens. The only bullet that we didn't catch in jug no. 4 was a 200 gr. SWC .45. It went through all 8 jugs and down range into the berm. Perfectly round .45 holes. Talk about penetration. Hollow points are not the only way to get the energy dumped into the target. The wide flat pointed SWC favored by Elmer Keith did a great job long before hollow points were refined to the point they are today and are the choice of most big game handgun hunters.
Last edited by drail; February 21, 2010 at 08:17 PM. |
February 21, 2010, 08:20 PM | #16 | |
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Last edited by ttheel; February 21, 2010 at 08:27 PM. |
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February 21, 2010, 08:22 PM | #17 |
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Three successes
This time I fired straight down in the water from 4 feet overhead, the Silvertip did the best (left) with 96% remaining attached, the center one I think is the Montana Gold with 60% remaining, and the unknown 180 grain HP has 75% remaining. My conclusion; the plastic formed a plug over the hollow point that prevented expansion.
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February 21, 2010, 09:28 PM | #18 |
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The Personal Defense show did this a while back using 6 1-gallon milk jugs lined up. All of the rounds they were able to recover had expanded perfectly.
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February 23, 2010, 08:38 AM | #19 | |
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I'm glad to be of assistance
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