Shotgun vs. Rifle in case of SHTF - Page 2

DougO83 · June 6, 2007, 10:38 AM

Ok, so how much S is HTF and how hard? That would totally determine what comes out of the gun cabinet.

Manedwolf · June 6, 2007, 10:44 AM

Good point. That could be anywhere from Katrina to an earthquake to a longer-term Great Northeast Blackout...or even to the less probable but possible like a sudden uprising all over of wild-eyed guys running around with rifles and shouting about allah.

Speer · June 6, 2007, 10:53 AM

Quote:

In California we went from a free state to one where we can't own any thing with a pistol grip and a removable magazine.

Yep. It's either an SKS with stripper clips, or it's a wallet busting M1A. And those ten round mags, and that ten day wait, the mile of paper work. Gotta love the PRK.

Anyway, if I were in a free state, I'd love an AK with a fifty round drum mag for my SHTF tool.

DougO83 · June 6, 2007, 11:45 AM

Quote:

or even to the less probable but possible like a sudden uprising all over of wild-eyed guys running around with rifles and shouting about allah.

In this case, I'm all for bringing out the heavy weapons. We came across a BAR (semi) at a gun show some years back and I have never had a reason to fire it for more than target shooting. Also, I just might invest in a .50. I am just looking for an excuse to buy one anyway.

sacp81170a · June 6, 2007, 01:24 PM

Please give some thought to the humble M1 Carbine. Reasonable magazine capacity, reasonable penetration, cheaper than an M1A, more PC than an AR, AK or SKS, plus, you can reload for it far more easily than most other long guns. I've got one with 2 30 rounders jungle clipped together for HD. It's light, handy, and my wife finds it extremely comfortable to use.

For real SHTF scenarios, I've still got my AR, my .45, and either of my Mossbergs. If my wifey needs to back me up(reaaally bad SH'ingTF), she feels much more comfortable with the carbine than any of the above.

I believe in having enough guns to lend to those I trust so we can back each other up, too.

Manedwolf · June 6, 2007, 01:40 PM

Actually, the M1 carbine was on the HR 1022 ban list, so I don't care about how "PC" something is... They don't care.

It's still a good gun, of course! Not much stopping power, but accurate, light and handy to grab and aim. Which is why it was made.

sacp81170a · June 6, 2007, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Actually, the M1 carbine was on the HR 1022 ban list, so I don't care about how "PC" something is... They don't care.

As long as HR 1022 isn't law yet, it's OK. I was thinking more along the lines of something that, if seen in your hand during a Katrina type situation, would be less likely to be seen as an EBR or a "killing machine". Less likely to frighten the, well, I won't use the derogatory term that refers to an ovine nature.

Manedwolf · June 6, 2007, 03:04 PM

That'd be why I have a lever-action carbine, too, for something to have across the back while shopping for supplies after a disaster.

People aren't threatened by those. In fact, they sometimes think they're a BB gun...despite the fact that it can slam out nine Buffalo Bore big-game .357 magnums in a row.

My "out buying gas and ice" attire, since open carry is legal here, would consist of a Taurus Judge loaded with shotshells in a covered brown leather flap holster on the belt, and possibly that carbine in its suede scabbard across the back. That says "out for a hike/hunt" here, not "on special ops". It wouldn't make people panic, but would stop a two-legged predator. The other stuff would be in a vehicle if needed.

Dirty_Harry · June 6, 2007, 03:26 PM

Get the rifle, the shotgun is a good choice.....but has limited range. Even with the slugs you cant expect to shoot accuratly past 100 yards. My SHTF weapons are my M1A....I would reach for this first, then my Bushmaster AR-15, 870 tactical, and M1 Carbine. They are in order of which I would pick first.

sacp81170a · June 6, 2007, 06:00 PM

Quote:

That'd be why I have a lever-action carbine, too, for something to have across the back while shopping for supplies after a disaster.

Good choice. I have a Marlin 1894C guide gun in .44 mag. 11 rounds in the tube, more if you stuff it with .44 Special. If it's good enough to carry in bear country, it'll more than likely be good enough for social situations.

Funny thing, the .458 Socom's ballistics are an almost exact match for the venerable .45-70(also, surprise, surprise, .458 caliber). One of the specifications for the .45-70 was that it be able to shoot through a horse and still kill a man using it for cover. I might have to think about a Marlin in .45-70 just for grins. (Oh no, not another excuse to buy a gun!)

Now THAT would be a fight stopper.

From a distance, an M1 carbine also looks like a BB gun, or maybe a .22, not a bad thing in some situations.

Bartholomew Roberts · June 6, 2007, 06:12 PM

Quote:

t the rifle, the shotgun is a good choice.....but has limited range. Even with the slugs you cant expect to shoot accuratly past 100 yards.

Actually, I've seen shotguns using slugs produce <8" groups at 200yds pretty consistently once people get the elevation down. I wouldn't be too quick to rule one out at that distance.

Then there is the second question of what a realistic engagement distance is... even if you can legally justify shooting someone at ranges greater than 100yds, a lot of times, you aren't going to have a sightline that long due to vegetation, terrain, homes, etc.

I just did an Intermediate Carbine course where we engaged eight targets along a 300yd trail. Even with magnified optics (ACOG) that let me pick the targets out of the brush at longer distances and take longer shots than the guys with Aimpoints or Irons, I think the longest shot I took all day was around 80yds just due to terrain.

I think a shotgun would do fine if that is what you know how to use and are confident with... My main concern would be limited mag capacity more than limited range; but a bolt CZ is going to have the same issue and is harder to top off.

kcshooter · June 6, 2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Actually, I've seen shotguns using slugs produce <8" groups at 200yds pretty consistently once people get the elevation down.

That kind of shooting is nothing short of impressive. I have to travel an hour and a half to even get to a range past 100yds. 200 with a shotgun slug deserves a medal!

NCLivingBrit · June 6, 2007, 06:59 PM

You could go the budget route like I did and get a used (gently used mind you) Mossberg with the 18" & 28" barrel and a nice SKS for less than $400. I've got the Mossie for defence and game getting if I need it and two .50 cal cans full of loaded stripper clips to go with the case of boxed 7.62x39.

I'll be adding a couple of revolvers (I'm tempted by the Taurus Judge for mine) to the stack and the usual stacks of ammo, but otherwise I'm fairly confident that Zed isn't coming into my house. At least not till I fall asleep anyway....

Bartholomew Roberts · June 6, 2007, 07:00 PM

Quote:

That kind of shooting is nothing short of impressive.

Here are some pics of people shooting shotguns with slugs at both 200yds and 300yds. The 300yd shots are on a 48"x48" steel gong so they aren't exactly going for precision; but you probably wouldn't want to stand around and laugh at them at that range.

kcshooter · June 6, 2007, 07:10 PM

Quote:

The 300yd shots are on a 48"x48" steel gong so they aren't exactly going for precision

Still impressive, 4' at 300yds with a shotgun slug using iron sights is indeed nothing to laugh at!

biere · June 6, 2007, 10:41 PM

Pattern your shotgun with your intended load and decide for yourself.

I am in a weird apartment setup and due to longish shots for my mossberg 590 loaded with 00 or 000 buck I have a handgun and a centerfire rifle for self defense purposes.

Part of my reasoning also comes from the simple fact that I am now working on taking some training classes and I figure it is far simpler to learn one handgun platform and one rifle platform and work on those two platforms vs. trying to work on other stuff.

I still have a hunting shotgun and I still use the 590 for fun stuff, but overall it boils down to a simple fact that I am not going to worry about a pellet or two from the buckshot load missing the target and maybe getting through a thin door or a window.

I have owned leveractions and while nice they are not something I would choose for a bump in the night.

When it comes to a long gun firing handgun ammo I just decide I want a centerfire rifle round instead so I don't own any long guns that shoot handgun ammo.

Different people prefer different things. I understand not everyone owns one of each to work with, but some research on how most shotguns pattern will show if you have a situation where a shotgun can keep all its pellets on target or if you might be at the point where if you are off a little a pellet or two could miss.

Brian@ITC · June 8, 2007, 08:25 AM

If you are talking about something other than your home being broken into, without a doubt an AR15 is what you need! It has accuracy, range, and is CQB capable, especially if you have a collapsable stock.

I used to own a Benelli M1 until last year and realized for most applications that another AR15 would be best suited for all around applications. A SG is a great home protection weapon, but the number of shots are also limited before you have to reload. I have at least 60 rounds attached to my AR at all times.

SteelCore · June 8, 2007, 08:49 AM

As others have said, it depends on what's meant by "SHTF" and what ranges you're talking about.

For home defense against common criminals, surviving violent urban riots, etc., I think a 12 gauge might be best.

In the most serious of SHTF scenarios -- i.e., resisting forcible gun confiscation or another attack on our Constitution -- you absolutely need a rifle, preferably in .308 or better so you have a range and penetration advantage against 9mm subguns and M4s/M16s.

revjen45 · June 9, 2007, 06:26 PM

One option not mentioned yet is the trusty "Mexican assault rifle"- the Marlin99/Glenfield 60. Don't take this as put-down. The Mexican Americans I have known are practical people who know what works and what doesn't, and what's worth what it costs and what isn't. They live in the real world, not some PC parallel universe. I'm not suggesting that a .22 is a substitute for a 12 ga or a ctr fire auto, but 15 rds of hi-speed .22lr is no joke, and cheap practice is a useful trait. The guns can be found cheap and their ubiquity means parts are available. I recall an incident back in the late Bronze Age in which a scuffle among children escalated into a viscious encounter between adults. One bozo with a viscious temper and his 2 short-bus buddies assailed the home of a Latino gentleman related to one of the kids. When the object os their wrath's pregnant wife went to the door, the charging poltroons shot her. Naturally, this annoyed the man of the house, who stepped forward with his M99/G60 and opened fire. The leader packing a .38 was in front and caught the most bullets. He dropped and died on the spot (so much for a .22 not being dangerous) while his back-up took off like their hair was on fire. The luckiest one made it to the street before he dropped, and the other one made it half way across the yard. As I recall one attacker survived. I guess a Ruger 10-22 with an extended mag would serve as well, but they're not as cheap. Seems like a good choice for a lady.

Chindo18Z · June 9, 2007, 07:27 PM

There is no question that a handgun provides adequate deadly defense.

There is no question that a shotgun trumps the handgun significantly in terms of lethality, capacity, barrier penetration, range, and hit probability.

But, a good rifle trumps a shotgun by offering the same lethality at a wider array of ranges, against a wider variety of barriers, and with higher cartridge capacity. All of your options are covered with a rifle. Only some are covered by a handgun or a shotgun.

YMMV...

Southern_guy · June 9, 2007, 07:29 PM

I'd grab my M1

Southern_guy · June 9, 2007, 07:30 PM

I'd grab my M1 carbine with two 30 rd mags and two 15 round mags, plus a TEC-9,Winchester 1300, and AR-15.

Globug · June 9, 2007, 07:45 PM

I don't envision any hordes of zombies in my lifetime, but I can envision angry "minorities" rioting, such as the Watts and more recent LA riots.

For this reason, I have always avoided living in large metroplitan areas..

My "crystal ball" says we will see more of these in the future, and maybe one day a "mass uprising" against "unfounded" and "unreal" discrimination and disadvantage..

My SHTF "mainstays" are my Glock 23 (always with me), Reminton 870 with 18" barrel and rifle sights..and my Colt AR15 Carbine..

These cover all the bases for me..

Manedwolf · June 9, 2007, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Funny thing, the .458 Socom's ballistics are an almost exact match for the venerable .45-70(also, surprise, surprise, .458 caliber). One of the specifications for the .45-70 was that it be able to shoot through a horse and still kill a man using it for cover. I might have to think about a Marlin in .45-70 just for grins. (Oh no, not another excuse to buy a gun!)

Now THAT would be a fight stopper.

Best quote I'd heard about the 45-70, after seeing a test of one literally going through milk jugs, wood, AND the brick beyond that...

"With the 45-70, there is no such thing as 'cover'".

Quote:

My "crystal ball" says we will see more of these in the future, and maybe one day a "mass uprising" against "unfounded" and "unreal" discrimination and disadvantage..

I think we're more likely to see a coordinated jihadist uprising, if anything. There's a lot of them here, they're all over, and the recent polls as to what percent of US muslims think that suicide bombings are okay were...frightening.

revjen45 · June 10, 2007, 12:34 PM

This is a likely scenario. Remember that they have been training a cadre of thousands of terrorists for years and have said that that small unit shootings in crowded venues (malls, golf courses, etc) are on the menu. Given the execrable state of security regarding things coming into the country anything could be imported in a standard shipping container, up to and including nuclear weapons. Imagine several cities nuked at once. There wouldn't be any trucks bringing chicken parts to the KFC for quite a while, and the civil disorder would make the Rodney King Riots look pretty tame. In any given area there is a 3-day supply of food in the stores at normal rates of consumption. In a panic that would be down to a couple of hours. The Mormons are starting to look pretty smart.

June 6, 2007, 10:38 AM	#26
DougO83 Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 389	question Ok, so how much S is HTF and how hard? That would totally determine what comes out of the gun cabinet. __________________ "You can all go to hell, I'm going to Texas." ---Colonel David Crockett Matt 6:33

June 6, 2007, 03:26 PM	#34
Dirty_Harry Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2006 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 1,484	Get the rifle, the shotgun is a good choice.....but has limited range. Even with the slugs you cant expect to shoot accuratly past 100 yards. My SHTF weapons are my M1A....I would reach for this first, then my Bushmaster AR-15, 870 tactical, and M1 Carbine. They are in order of which I would pick first. __________________ "The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you never should have laid down." "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them." -John Wayne

June 6, 2007, 06:59 PM	#38
NCLivingBrit Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 39	You could go the budget route like I did and get a used (gently used mind you) Mossberg with the 18" & 28" barrel and a nice SKS for less than $400. I've got the Mossie for defence and game getting if I need it and two .50 cal cans full of loaded stripper clips to go with the case of boxed 7.62x39. I'll be adding a couple of revolvers (I'm tempted by the Taurus Judge for mine) to the stack and the usual stacks of ammo, but otherwise I'm fairly confident that Zed isn't coming into my house. At least not till I fall asleep anyway.... __________________ The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, “You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I’m just not close enough to get the job done.” - George Carlin

June 8, 2007, 08:25 AM	#42
Brian@ITC Member Join Date: August 8, 2005 Location: Richmond, IN Posts: 32	If you are talking about something other than your home being broken into, without a doubt an AR15 is what you need! It has accuracy, range, and is CQB capable, especially if you have a collapsable stock. I used to own a Benelli M1 until last year and realized for most applications that another AR15 would be best suited for all around applications. A SG is a great home protection weapon, but the number of shots are also limited before you have to reload. I have at least 60 rounds attached to my AR at all times. __________________ Brian K. LaMaster President- Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC Ezekiel 33:5-6, Luke22:36 Marksmanship is a hopeful skill, FIGHTING skills are a must!

June 8, 2007, 08:49 AM	#43
SteelCore Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2007 Posts: 522	As others have said, it depends on what's meant by "SHTF" and what ranges you're talking about. For home defense against common criminals, surviving violent urban riots, etc., I think a 12 gauge might be best. In the most serious of SHTF scenarios -- i.e., resisting forcible gun confiscation or another attack on our Constitution -- you absolutely need a rifle, preferably in .308 or better so you have a range and penetration advantage against 9mm subguns and M4s/M16s. __________________ "None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt

June 6, 2007, 10:44 AM	#27
Manedwolf Junior member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Posts: 3,266	Good point. That could be anywhere from Katrina to an earthquake to a longer-term Great Northeast Blackout...or even to the less probable but possible like a sudden uprising all over of wild-eyed guys running around with rifles and shouting about allah.

June 6, 2007, 01:24 PM	#30
sacp81170a Junior Member Join Date: June 3, 2007 Posts: 12	Please give some thought to the humble M1 Carbine. Reasonable magazine capacity, reasonable penetration, cheaper than an M1A, more PC than an AR, AK or SKS, plus, you can reload for it far more easily than most other long guns. I've got one with 2 30 rounders jungle clipped together for HD. It's light, handy, and my wife finds it extremely comfortable to use. For real SHTF scenarios, I've still got my AR, my .45, and either of my Mossbergs. If my wifey needs to back me up(reaaally bad SH'ingTF), she feels much more comfortable with the carbine than any of the above. I believe in having enough guns to lend to those I trust so we can back each other up, too.

June 6, 2007, 01:40 PM	#31
Manedwolf Junior member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Posts: 3,266	Actually, the M1 carbine was on the HR 1022 ban list, so I don't care about how "PC" something is... They don't care. It's still a good gun, of course! Not much stopping power, but accurate, light and handy to grab and aim. Which is why it was made.

June 6, 2007, 03:04 PM	#33
Manedwolf Junior member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Posts: 3,266	That'd be why I have a lever-action carbine, too, for something to have across the back while shopping for supplies after a disaster. People aren't threatened by those. In fact, they sometimes think they're a BB gun...despite the fact that it can slam out nine Buffalo Bore big-game .357 magnums in a row. My "out buying gas and ice" attire, since open carry is legal here, would consist of a Taurus Judge loaded with shotshells in a covered brown leather flap holster on the belt, and possibly that carbine in its suede scabbard across the back. That says "out for a hike/hunt" here, not "on special ops". It wouldn't make people panic, but would stop a two-legged predator. The other stuff would be in a vehicle if needed.

June 6, 2007, 10:41 PM	#41
biere Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: tn Posts: 504	Pattern your shotgun with your intended load and decide for yourself. I am in a weird apartment setup and due to longish shots for my mossberg 590 loaded with 00 or 000 buck I have a handgun and a centerfire rifle for self defense purposes. Part of my reasoning also comes from the simple fact that I am now working on taking some training classes and I figure it is far simpler to learn one handgun platform and one rifle platform and work on those two platforms vs. trying to work on other stuff. I still have a hunting shotgun and I still use the 590 for fun stuff, but overall it boils down to a simple fact that I am not going to worry about a pellet or two from the buckshot load missing the target and maybe getting through a thin door or a window. I have owned leveractions and while nice they are not something I would choose for a bump in the night. When it comes to a long gun firing handgun ammo I just decide I want a centerfire rifle round instead so I don't own any long guns that shoot handgun ammo. Different people prefer different things. I understand not everyone owns one of each to work with, but some research on how most shotguns pattern will show if you have a situation where a shotgun can keep all its pellets on target or if you might be at the point where if you are off a little a pellet or two could miss.

June 9, 2007, 06:26 PM	#44
revjen45 Junior member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 626	One option not mentioned yet is the trusty "Mexican assault rifle"- the Marlin99/Glenfield 60. Don't take this as put-down. The Mexican Americans I have known are practical people who know what works and what doesn't, and what's worth what it costs and what isn't. They live in the real world, not some PC parallel universe. I'm not suggesting that a .22 is a substitute for a 12 ga or a ctr fire auto, but 15 rds of hi-speed .22lr is no joke, and cheap practice is a useful trait. The guns can be found cheap and their ubiquity means parts are available. I recall an incident back in the late Bronze Age in which a scuffle among children escalated into a viscious encounter between adults. One bozo with a viscious temper and his 2 short-bus buddies assailed the home of a Latino gentleman related to one of the kids. When the object os their wrath's pregnant wife went to the door, the charging poltroons shot her. Naturally, this annoyed the man of the house, who stepped forward with his M99/G60 and opened fire. The leader packing a .38 was in front and caught the most bullets. He dropped and died on the spot (so much for a .22 not being dangerous) while his back-up took off like their hair was on fire. The luckiest one made it to the street before he dropped, and the other one made it half way across the yard. As I recall one attacker survived. I guess a Ruger 10-22 with an extended mag would serve as well, but they're not as cheap. Seems like a good choice for a lady.

June 9, 2007, 07:27 PM	#45
Chindo18Z Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 1999 Posts: 498	There is no question that a handgun provides adequate deadly defense. There is no question that a shotgun trumps the handgun significantly in terms of lethality, capacity, barrier penetration, range, and hit probability. But, a good rifle trumps a shotgun by offering the same lethality at a wider array of ranges, against a wider variety of barriers, and with higher cartridge capacity. All of your options are covered with a rifle. Only some are covered by a handgun or a shotgun. YMMV... __________________ Figure The Odds...

June 9, 2007, 07:29 PM	#46
Southern_guy Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 175	I'd grab my M1

June 9, 2007, 07:30 PM	#47
Southern_guy Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 175	I'd grab my M1 carbine with two 30 rd mags and two 15 round mags, plus a TEC-9,Winchester 1300, and AR-15.

June 9, 2007, 07:45 PM	#48
Globug Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Posts: 28	I don't envision any hordes of zombies in my lifetime, but I can envision angry "minorities" rioting, such as the Watts and more recent LA riots. For this reason, I have always avoided living in large metroplitan areas.. My "crystal ball" says we will see more of these in the future, and maybe one day a "mass uprising" against "unfounded" and "unreal" discrimination and disadvantage.. My SHTF "mainstays" are my Glock 23 (always with me), Reminton 870 with 18" barrel and rifle sights..and my Colt AR15 Carbine.. These cover all the bases for me..

June 10, 2007, 12:34 PM	#50
revjen45 Junior member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 626	This is a likely scenario. Remember that they have been training a cadre of thousands of terrorists for years and have said that that small unit shootings in crowded venues (malls, golf courses, etc) are on the menu. Given the execrable state of security regarding things coming into the country anything could be imported in a standard shipping container, up to and including nuclear weapons. Imagine several cities nuked at once. There wouldn't be any trucks bringing chicken parts to the KFC for quite a while, and the civil disorder would make the Rodney King Riots look pretty tame. In any given area there is a 3-day supply of food in the stores at normal rates of consumption. In a panic that would be down to a couple of hours. The Mormons are starting to look pretty smart.