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Old February 21, 2019, 06:18 PM   #1
richrd1
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Carry insurance

Considering that even if you do everything right in a defense of your life, there will still be huge expenses to pay.

What do you think of the different insurances and has anyone actually used one ?
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Old February 21, 2019, 08:16 PM   #2
Aguila Blanca
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What are some of the different insurances that you think are out there? Pretty much everything I've seen is pre-paid legal services plans, not insurance that will pay any judgements that might be rendered against you if you lose in court.
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Old February 23, 2019, 07:21 PM   #3
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I have never heard an actual story from a person who actually had to use one of these conceal carry legal teams to get them out of a bind. I would hate to hear of someone in that kind of mess, but I would also like to know if they are legit. I have friends that have US Law Shield. I honestly do not know one thing about this.
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Old February 23, 2019, 08:25 PM   #4
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Ive been using CCW SAFE for a number of years now. They had a case recently, where they covered a member from start to finish, and I think somewhere around $200,000 in fees, and it didnt cost them a dime out of pocket, start to finish.

My understanding with most of the others is, youre limited in coverage, and you have to pay upfront, and seek reimbursement, or at least thats how it was when I was first looking into them.
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Old February 23, 2019, 11:59 PM   #5
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The thing I didn't like about CCW Safe when I started looking into this was there was no underwriter for an insurance policy. It seemed the only thing covering any legal fees was a promise with the notion being member dues would cover it. That seemed potentially problematic to me in the event of multiple claims. Given the relatively low likelihood of needing that coverage, that may well be fine anyway. For all I know they changed their policy.

Each company has its own advantages. A number have high profile proponents. A number also list examples of people using their policies, but for all I know those are made up (if I want to be a cynic). I do use one. I think the best option is to look for yourself, try to compare and choose what seems the best for you. There's also no reason you can't use more than one if you're really concerned.

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Old February 24, 2019, 07:22 AM   #6
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I've had USCCA for two years now and thankfully haven't needed anything from it. Their online scenario-based training is very good, as is their monthly magazine. But no, I don't know of anyone who has had to use them, apart from their own published cases.

There's a certain amount of faith involved in using any of them, since none have the kind of established history of a typical insurance company, but it seems unthinkable to me to not have it (assuming it works!) because even the price of being found innocent can be staggering.

My favorite online trainer dude just made a video about why he finally picked up CCW insurance, and it was USCCA, and he's cool, so I guess that's good enough for me

https://warriorpoetsociety.us/uscca-review/
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Old February 24, 2019, 10:17 AM   #7
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I have a good lawyer, one familiar with Florida law and local jurisdictions, on call. The likely hood of my being involved in a fire arms altercation is pretty remote. That's my insurance
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Old February 25, 2019, 03:12 PM   #8
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i looked this all over last year and the uscca made the most sense used in conjunction with my umbrella policy, but luckily i have never had any experiences actually having to use it
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Old February 26, 2019, 08:23 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Mannlicher View Post
I have a good lawyer, one familiar with Florida law and local jurisdictions, on call. The likely hood of my being involved in a fire arms altercation is pretty remote. That's my insurance
I have the same thing..a friend who is an attorney, who also has CCWP, so he understands all of this..He would be my second phone call after I dialed 911...
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Old February 26, 2019, 02:40 PM   #10
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The value (advertised, anyway) of CCW insurance isn't that they'll find you a lawyer, but that they'll pay the fees to your lawyer.

Having an attorney on speed dial is great, but greater still if someone else will pay him
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Old February 26, 2019, 03:21 PM   #11
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I contest the notion that a self-defense incident will cost you ginormous amounts of money. That's what an insurance peddler wants you to believe. Along with anything else that involves "uncertainty" there is a risk you will incur great expenses. I certainly can't promise you it will be cheap. But the sales pitch is more compelling on the basis of the notion that it will certainly cost you everything you have.

If it is truly a clean shoot, you may not even be charged with anything. There is no certainty about some future event, but if it's clean you have a significant chance of it costing you nothing at all. I would speculate the chances of that are greater than it costing you an enormous fortune.

If it's a clean shoot, but a DA wants to play it tough for whatever reason, there's a good chance a defense attorney can persuade them otherwise without a trial and your expenses will be minimal.

If it's a clean shoot and the DA is a bulldog or if there's a minor issue with the shoot they want to take to trial, your attorney is going to have to work hard and nobody wants a "cheap" lawyer in those circumstances. The problem is the insurance salesman is going to try to convince you that your expenses will be directly proportional to your desire to stay out of prison.

Our justice system should not work such that if it was a dirty shoot, you can pay money to get out of it. The insurance salesmen is selling the proposition that, "if you're not rich, you can buy this insurance to be rich just when you need to get out of trouble."

When you spend more money on insurance against being a poor criminal instead of a rich one than you spend on training to avoid a criminal mistake, you're a dupe to the salesman.

Take the all the money you'd spend on poor criminal insurance and spend it on both weapon-handling training and also on legal use of force training. Your insurance makes insurers and attorneys wealthier while doing nothing to benefit the victims of the dirty shoot you're really hoping they cover for you. Training will help all the innocents and keep you on their side.
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Old February 26, 2019, 05:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
I contest the notion that a self-defense incident will cost you ginormous amounts of money.
Do you have any basis at all for that opinion?


Quote:
If it is truly a clean shoot, you may not even be charged with anything..... if it's clean you have a significant chance of it costing you nothing at all. I would speculate the chances of that are greater than it costing you an enormous fortune.
How will anyone make that determination without looking into the evidence? Would you not want to have an attorney involved until that determination is made? Do you think that will not cost money?

Quote:
If it's a clean shoot, but a DA wants to play it tough for whatever reason, there's a good chance a defense attorney can persuade them otherwise without a trial and your expenses will be minimal.
What do you consider "minimal"?

Quote:
If it's a clean shoot and the DA is a bulldog....
Don't forget the civil plaintiff.

Do you have any idea what you may spend even pretrial, even if there is ultimately no trial, if you simply present a weapon and someone calls 911 with a story that differs from yours?

Do you have any idea what a trial costs, including the cost for expert witnesses? How about an appeal? How about another trial if you prevail in the appeal?

Consider the case of Larry Hickey. A very clean shoot, and no one died--but he multiple trials bankrupted him.
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Old February 27, 2019, 04:11 PM   #13
1MoreFord
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The situation with CCW insurance/prepaid legal has changed in the last year or two as I understand things.

CCWSafe appears to have added optional real insurance for judgements in addition to their prepaid legal services. Once I have money again I'm going to check further.
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Old February 27, 2019, 06:53 PM   #14
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In following this discussion, it appears to me that there is still no clarity as to the distinction between legal fees and insurance against civil judgements. It is virtually axiomatic today that any shooting, even if you are exonerated of criminal charges, is likely to be followed by a civil lawsuit by your attacker or his family. The burden of proof is lower in civil cases and the possibility exists that you could get a judgement against you even if you were found innocent of crimnal charges. (Look at the O.J. Simpson trials, for example.)

A program that pays (or reimburses) your legal fees is of scant value if you have legal bills of, say, $100,000 but you get hit with a civil judgement of $1 million -- and your "insurance" only pays the legal fees.

That's why I asked how many of the programs y'all are discussing (most of which still remain unnamed) are actually insurance programs, as opposed to just pre- (or post-) paid legal fee programs.
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Old August 19, 2019, 01:12 AM   #15
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I went with "Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network, Inc". A little over a year ago it was the highest rated by "Gun News" newspaper. ..doubt you could ever cover all the "what ifs" but it seemed like a bargain if for nothing else the peace-of-mind. ..can't guarantee I'll never need it but what I can guarantee is I'll try like hel_ to avoid ever having to need to use it. Wish us all luck.
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Old August 19, 2019, 01:45 AM   #16
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This summer a case was settled in Illinois in which a car crash occurred on the rural road in front of a farmer's home. As a good Samaritan the farmer went out to investigate. Two 20-something--it seems they were under the influence of at least alcohol & maybe drugs--had crashed their vehicle. Both had criminal records. An altercation ensued. The farmer shot one of the thugs in the leg. The victim bled to death. Every police agency investigating the shooting including the Illinois State Police considered it justifiable recommending no charges be filed. The ASA involved thought otherwise putting the farmer through a trial. The farmer was acquitted. ..not to sound cold but the lesson for me in this case is to NOT investigate incidents like this, but rather call 911. ..sad it has to be that way but.. I'd much rather have my Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network behind me than not. They've some of the top experts in the world ready to testify should the need arise. ..sounds good to me.
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Old August 19, 2019, 06:45 AM   #17
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Spats McGee, care to comment on this subject? I'd be interested in your thoughts on civil liability after a judgement of no criminal violation in a SD shooting. Thx in advance, Rod
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Old August 19, 2019, 08:21 AM   #18
Naro
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I just have 2 concerns about the insurance, and frankly don't know the answers:
1)"they'll refer you to an attorney"..... o.k., great. NOW what process do they go through to confirm that the attorney truly has good CCW issue/Firearms-self-defense issue experience. In my experience some such services rotate through a list of attorneys who have paid a referral fee... but there is no quality control on who is on the "panel".
2) "they pay your legal fees up to xxx". Great. Do they pay based on what the attorney's actual billed rate is, or do they "negotiate" a rate reduction? If the later, as do some insurance carriers, they get those attorneys willing to discount their rates significantly. And I wonder: if they're really good at this work, why would they agree to or need to "discount" the fees.
So as I look more into this, I want to read the actual policy before I purchase it, and I want to determine if my State Insurance Commission has any guidelines.
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Old August 19, 2019, 08:47 AM   #19
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I use Armed Citizen's Legal Defense now for 8 years. Never needed it but they seem to be a reparable organization. On line and DVD law training to help you understand what is legal and what to do before and after. Good luck in your search.
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Old August 19, 2019, 06:40 PM   #20
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Most every kind of insurance plan I have ever seen has disclaimers in case you are convicted of a crime during whatever act activates the coverage. Sounds to me like if you are GTG, you are GTG and if you are not, insurance won't help you.
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Old August 19, 2019, 08:26 PM   #21
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One of the issues that New York State used to attack the NRA's Carry Guard insurance program is that it's unlawful to insure against illegal acts. If that's true under the laws of all (or most) states, then no insurance can or will help you if you're convicted of a criminal charge.

But many of the programs out there aren't insurance programs. There are web sites that compare them, so you can see which are insurance compared to which are only (essentially) legal services cooperatives. Here's a link to one such comparison:

https://www.concealedcarry.com/self-...rams-compared/

IMHO, the ones that say "No" for Civil Damages are not insurance plans, they are just legal defense plans. Frankly, if you go to prison because a shooting is ruled to have been a criminal act rather than a justified act of self defense, a civil claim against you is one of the last things you might worry about. But, as O.J. Simpson learned, you can be acquitted in criminal court yet found liable in civil court. (If you want a proper explanation of why that is, ask -- perhaps Frank or Spats will provide a suitably lawyerly explanation.)

So your worst nightmare is to be in a shooting, be found innocent in criminal court, and face a mega bucks lawsuit in civil court by the person you shot -- or his/her family. That's where having some insurance, on top of having your lawyer bills paid, can make a huge difference.
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Old August 20, 2019, 06:22 AM   #22
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Aguila, many thanks for the link to the comparison chart....just what I've been looking for...Rod

https://www.concealedcarry.com/self-...rams-compared/
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Old August 20, 2019, 02:50 PM   #23
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Except of course OJ actually should have been found guilty. You might still face that kind of bias in a civil trial but it is less likely.

Many states now have immunity (Stand Your Ground) laws. My state is one such state. I'd never want to be involved in another shooting but the protections are pretty strong.

If you live in a state without such protections then you are kind of stuck.
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Old August 20, 2019, 03:31 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodfac
....thoughts on civil liability after a judgement of no criminal violation in a SD shooting. Thx in advance, Rod....
A jury verdict of "not guilty" in a criminal trial is not an affirmative finding that the defendant did not commit the crime. It merely means that the prosecutor did not convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did commit the crime.

The burden of proof in a civil case is "a preponderance of the evidence" and thus a lower hurdle than "beyond a reasonable doubt." So the actor might be found not guilty at his criminal trial but civilly liable on a tort claim arising from the same incident.

In States in which there is a civil immunity law for bona fide self defense, an acquittal at the criminal trial won't necessarily establish that the defendant is entitle to civil immunity. That area of the law is evolving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by labnoti
....If it is truly a clean shoot, you may not even be charged with anything....
A variation on the "a good shoot is a good shoot" fallacy.

Again, you won't have the final say on whether it was a "clean shoot." That decision will be made by th DA and/or a grand jury and/or the jury at your trial. And you don't get to order your critical incident "made to measure." You will be stuck after the fact with whatever happened and however it happened. Whether or not it was a "clean shoot" will remain to be seen.
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Old August 20, 2019, 07:06 PM   #25
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Except of course OJ actually should have been found guilty. You might still face that kind of bias in a civil trial but it is less likely.
Doesn't matter. I mentioned O.J. to illustrate the point, which Frank Ettin kindly expanded on, that you can be found not guilty in a criminal trial and still be found liable in a civil lawsuit over the same incident. That's the ONLY point I was making, so let's keep the discussion on topic.
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