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Old December 11, 2018, 10:45 AM   #1
Tactical Jackalope
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Concealed Carry / Work / Security work + Distance x DA/SA vs Striker/SAO

Sorry about the equation. Thought it'd be funny.

Well, this is short and sweet.

We've seen stories of LE, security, military, and even CC citizens taking long distance shots. Sometimes with success, guess they don't make it to headlines without.

Anyway, I'm a DA/SA guy mostly but also like striker-fired pistols. (SAO is reserved for range us as I don't like safeties).

The "odds" of are not relevant to this topic because the odds of needing the weapon to begin with in a concealed carry world are minimal. This is more of a "oh, crap. you have to." type of thing. Especially with working the shops and security work, which is often times plain clothes for me.


I mainly carry a DA/SA pistol of some type. I feel the only hindrance for me is quick distance shots. Especially rushed, in DA. I know some people may be able to pull it off at 25 yards+. Even after shooting DA/SA for almost 20 years and almost 10 of those years with self defense in mind, I'm still not able to accurately do so.

On the range, it'll be acceptable to have a DA flyer and then punch the target repeatedly with the SA pull. However, in real life...I don't think it is at all.


Now, there's a way to remedy that. A few ways. More and more and more practice until I can't get it wrong. Which is difficult. Or cock the hammer in the rushed "go time" moment while losing seconds. --- What would you guys rather do? Or what do you think you'd be capable of? That's not a shot you want to second guess yourself on.

I did it consistently well in my last training course with my M&P 9L (which I sold) and I do it consistently well with my Glock 19, too. For my USP 9C, 226/229, I have to cock the hammer for a nice T-Zone hit.




Now I know this is a rarity. But the same reason I choose Trijicon HD XR sights over XS Big Dot sights, I want all bases covered if they can be or at least pretty damn close to it. (I'm not good with XS sights passed a certain yardage and follow the "if it isn't broken don't fix it theory. I'm perfectly fine up close with both. Not so well at distance with both.)



So, what do you DA/SA guys do? Pointers, tips, tricks, etc are welcome. But I mostly want to hear from the people who either can hit their mark at distance in DA or if you carry either platform and if you've ever practiced or thought about this exact scenario.


PS: Sorry I lied about short and sweet.
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Old December 11, 2018, 01:50 PM   #2
T. O'Heir
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Distance x DA/SA vs Striker/SAO is irrelevant. You need to practice, with the ammo you carry, at whatever distance you think necessary.
However, 25 plus yards(25 yards being 75 feet. NRA shoots slow fire at 50 yards though.) means, in most cases, that you are not in immediate danger either. The courts will probably have a field day.
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Old December 11, 2018, 02:23 PM   #3
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That's gonna be a lot of decocking. lol!

If, and's, and but's. Who knows. Like with "modified guns" being a field-day in court. Hasn't happened.
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Old December 11, 2018, 03:58 PM   #4
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How could you assert that if you're 25 yards away from a threat, you're not in immediate danger?

Just because you're carrying a reactionary weapon (handgun), there's no guarantee your attacker won't have a rifle.

How far is it from your door to your child's bus stop? From your car to your spouse's work entrance? From your rear yard to your front yard?

The vast majority of defensive handgun uses are at a few feet, but if you count on NEVER needing to deploy your handgun at a longer distance, you're just not thinking it through.


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Old December 11, 2018, 04:09 PM   #5
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I checked this recently. The length of the aisle in the frozen food section at my local grocery store is about 30 yards. Some of the aisles in my local Wally World are more than 50 yards long.
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Old December 11, 2018, 05:40 PM   #6
Tactical Jackalope
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Pretty much what Ranger said. Again, the you won't be in the situation is not what I'm looking for. I can say that about every single scenario you ever bring up. As stated, there are distances far greater than that. Such as an active shooter or if I am waiting for my wife while she's leaving work and someone tries to do god-knows-what to her.. as I've also stated, and if you want me to post links I can. There have been situations where people have had to take long shots. All I'm asking is what people who have double action / single action pistols do and if they cock the hammer or even thought of the scenario and if people who owns Striker Fired or single action pistols have as well.

If you don't think you'll ever be in that scenario and do not want to prepare for it, that's fair enough. But that's not what I'm asking.

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Old December 11, 2018, 06:45 PM   #7
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The idea of active shooters scares me more than personal attacks and I believe that's the kind of scenario where long shots are a probability. I attempt DA shots at 25 yards, occasionally, without the greatest of outcomes. I do much better in SA. I think in a position where a long shot is necessary cocking the hammer would be the way to go.
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Old December 11, 2018, 08:45 PM   #8
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One of your goals in training and practice should be to determine your capabilities with whatever weapon you're carrying; I know I can't make a head shot at 100 yards with my carry gun, but know that (in practice, at a range and not getting shot at...) I can at 25 yards.

I don't know when, or if, I'll have to defend myself. I also don't know what my attacker will be armed with, or what distance the attack with commence at. That's why I know if I can make a shot at 6" (harder than it seems it would be) and how far I can stretch before my chances of making a productive shot approach zero.

If you don't know what you can hit, you're missing vital data about the tactics you should employ in the particular situation you find yourself in.


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Old December 12, 2018, 01:47 AM   #9
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To me with a DA/SA pistol you should be able to pull off a DA hit on the torso at 50 yds and a headshot ideally at 25 yds, with the latter not being easy but not impossible either. Going very quickly I'd expect a torso hit. A good instructor focusing on sight alignment and trigger control should be able to get you there. I could do it when I shot DA/SA primarily and others could much better than I.

What I found over time was that shooting a Glock "safe-action" type trigger where the pull weight was identical as opposed to DA/SA simply required less practice. I also became less convinced of the need of that DA pull for safety.

If you are going to carry DA/SA I argue dry fire is critical. I argue it's good either way, but with DA/SA perhaps moreso. This isn't just me saying this, Todd Green and any number of other shooters have felt or feel the same way. A good drill is the Wall Drill by George Harris. You should find it on the late Mr. Green's website.

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Old December 12, 2018, 08:53 AM   #10
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Man, this 25yd+ headshot was / is so much easier under stress (classes, not range practice) with the M&P or Glock. It's even easy with the SA in my DA/SA pistols. But I really really want to make the same shot with the DA pull. That's been a huge PITA for me. I don't want to have to always cock the darn hammer.

Gonna have to do a lot of decocking at practice it at the range. No class with 10-30 students is going to allow me to keep trying lol.

Thanks for not saying "Just carry the Glock then!" I know, that's an easy answer.
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Old December 12, 2018, 09:14 AM   #11
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Quote:
The idea of active shooters scares me more than personal attacks and I believe that's the kind of scenario where long shots are a probability. I attempt DA shots at 25 yards, occasionally, without the greatest of outcomes. I do much better in SA. I think in a position where a long shot is necessary cocking the hammer would be the way to go.
I definitely agree with that. Guess it's not a big deal to cock the hammer, but it's just one more step in an already tense situation. You know?

If I can't make hits with the DA HK trigger pull eventually, I'll see what I do then. The time to find out is not at the encounter alone lol. That'll be terrible.
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Old December 12, 2018, 02:17 PM   #12
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At one time I carried a DAO duty weapon; my inability to make 25 yard headshots as quickly as I could with a consistent trigger is why I eventually switched to a new weapon.

It's nice to carry a gun you like, but I like carrying a gun I can shoot well.

Larry
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Old December 12, 2018, 02:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
The idea of active shooters scares me more than personal attacks
I assume by "active shooter" you actually mean "mass shooter."

Despite what the media would have you believe, you are statistically far less likely to be attacked by a mass shooter than a personal attacker.
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Old December 12, 2018, 03:07 PM   #14
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I always practice at 100 yards with my 1911. Not that I ever plan to engage anyone at that distance, but you never know you might be at a grocery store or at a mall and an active shooter scenario unveils itself. I am getting okay hitting a paper size target about 4 to 5 times out of seven times. Depending on the load at that distance if you aim at about 12 o'clock to an inch higher you will be on target with a 230 grain bullet. It surprised me that it was almost point of aim. First time I shot I aimed at about 2 feet high and hit the berm very high from the target, second time I lower to the center and hit just below the target. It helps if there is a berm where you can see the bullet impacts at that distance.
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Old December 12, 2018, 05:05 PM   #15
Tactical Jackalope
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Quote:
At one time I carried a DAO duty weapon; my inability to make 25 yard headshots as quickly as I could with a consistent trigger is why I eventually switched to a new weapon.

It's nice to carry a gun you like, but I like carrying a gun I can shoot well.

Larry
Yeah, heard that. With DAO you can't even attempt to make the pull better by cocking the hammer. Understand that 100%. I'd do the same.

There's a Publix here (similar to Kroger's) that is 100yds straight or more. An isle is 25-30.


Quote:
I assume by "active shooter" you actually mean "mass shooter."
No. Active shooter. If he's actively shooting we don't know the quantities yet. If he's stopped before it becomes a mass shooting, it's not a mass shooting. If you engage and incapacitate and active shooter, he's no longer active.

ms6852, good on you for practicing that. I can't imagine I'd be able to hit anything at 50-100 yards in DA unless I stage the ever living heck out of the trigger. Something I won't be doing in an active shooter scenario. O_O
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Old December 12, 2018, 05:08 PM   #16
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Two words come to mind, DRY FIRE
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Old December 12, 2018, 05:28 PM   #17
Tactical Jackalope
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When I dry fire and aim out to 25+ yards, I imagine I always hit the target!


This is a live-fire thing. Need that visual or audible confirmation. n
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Old December 12, 2018, 05:33 PM   #18
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Poor trigger control will not improve no matter how much lead you sling down range. If as you stated, you have fliers on the initial DA shot, then its piss poor trigger control. so hence dry fire practice is in order
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Old December 12, 2018, 05:44 PM   #19
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I did a day long course on long range pistol shooting, inspired by the Peach House RV Park shooting. We went from 3 yds to 200 yds. By the end of the day everyone in a class of 12 could get repeated hits at 100 yds. These weren't quick draw competitions, but we weren't doing a shot a minute either. A number of the people did this with DA/SA pistols and a DA first shot. In fact the only guy, younger guy in his 20s, that hit at 200 yds did so in DA with a P226. I could not hit at 200, though I did come close. We were shooting at full size IPSC steel plates.

I also prefer the term active shooter. Sometimes it's a mass shooter, sometimes it's a domestic or other dispute that spills over. It's not always someone who has as his goal originally to kill a large group of people. While I generally advise people mind their own business, call the police, and be good witnesses first, situations can evolve.

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Old December 12, 2018, 05:45 PM   #20
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I agree with Don. It's sight alignment and trigger control. That can absolutely be practiced with dry fire, and should be. It's not about imagining yourself hitting, this isn't the Music Man. It's about monitoring that sight alignment throughout the trigger press. Mixing dry fire in while doing live fire is also helpful. Mixing snap caps in is a great way to catch yourself doing things you might not otherwise realize.

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Old December 12, 2018, 11:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Jackalope View Post
Yeah, heard that. With DAO you can't even attempt to make the pull better by cocking the hammer. Understand that 100%. I'd do the same.

There's a Publix here (similar to Kroger's) that is 100yds straight or more. An isle is 25-30.




No. Active shooter. If he's actively shooting we don't know the quantities yet. If he's stopped before it becomes a mass shooting, it's not a mass shooting. If you engage and incapacitate and active shooter, he's no longer active.

ms6852, good on you for practicing that. I can't imagine I'd be able to hit anything at 50-100 yards in DA unless I stage the ever living heck out of the trigger. Something I won't be doing in an active shooter scenario. O_O
Haven't done it with a DA. I did just recently changed my carry gun to a revolver for no reason other than I wanted it. I did buy the 686 plus with 3" barrel and a model 617 with 4" barrel so that I can practice exclusively DA only at various distances. Using 22lr in this fashion, I believe will enhance my accuracy with the 686. Using SA only on the 686 is very easy and accurate. And if there was ever an active shooter scenario in which I would get caught I would not engage unless there was no other choice.
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Old December 13, 2018, 12:04 AM   #22
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Quote:
No. Active shooter. If he's actively shooting we don't know the quantities yet. If he's stopped before it becomes a mass shooting, it's not a mass shooting. If you engage and incapacitate and active shooter, he's no longer active.
I agree with that, but that’s not what Garand’td implied or wrote.

Most violent attacks have motives other than inflicting mass casualties.
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Old December 13, 2018, 05:06 AM   #23
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I forgot to mention something lol. I had surgery on my right thumb and back of my left hand. Can't cock the hammer with the right yet. This was 3 days after Thanksgiving. The incident happened on Thanksgiving.

The HK USP 9 Compact has a bobbed hammer and I cannot even come close to getting a grasp on the hammer with my right thumb yet.

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Old December 13, 2018, 07:53 AM   #24
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Ouch, sorry about that. FWIW you can replace the bobbed hammer on the USP Compact with a spur hammer from the USP if you wanted. Also, to make the DA pull a bit easier you might try swapping the mainspring for a Wolff spring. I had good luck with a 12 lb. spring and others go as low as 10 lb. It's pretty easy to do. Depending on the age of the pistol if it has the heavy firing pin block spring swapping that for the light spring can really help with the stacking at the end of of the pull.

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Old December 13, 2018, 09:01 AM   #25
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as Tunnelrat and I stated, dry fire will help your trigger control. Its all in the practice. I shoot the revolver competition ICORE. At the 2017 IRC we had 1 stage that had 2 plate racks and 2 paper targets. Plate racks were at 15 and 20 yards away and the plates are 8" in size. The 2 paper targets were at 50 yards away and my S&W 625 has a bobbed hammer so all was shot DA. Matter of fact the only revolver I have that still sports a spurred hammer is a Python
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