The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 27, 2018, 04:36 PM   #51
Rachen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2006
Location: Weekend cowboy
Posts: 532
Quote:
That is, of the evidence that is admitted into court.

Would a reasonable person, knowing what you knew at the time, have fired?

The determination would be influenced by arguments about how much time you had to decide, and how much time you had to act. Was your action reasonable?

The prosecutor will not have any way of reasonably judging that, nor will the jurors, without some help.
Exactly. The closest thing that can be paralleled to something like this is trying to dock a moving satellite into a moving space station. There is no room for error. Not one bit. Take an action just one second too late, it might turn out to be a real assault rifle and people can already be dead or dying once that rifle activates. Act too early, and lethal force would have been used on a situation that could have only required cordoning off the area, and waiting for authorities to arrive.

Even with the best training, sometimes it is just impossible to tell if someone is being just an unhinged attention-seeker or is about to open fire with a real firearm. Such is the specter that hangs over law enforcement every day. There are plenty of "suicide by cop" cases that unfold just like this.

Quote:
I will also argue that if you had not been trained, you should not be drawing and firing a gun in a crowd.
THIS+100 times. Marc McYoung specifically talked about these dangers in the section of his site that discusses defensive shooting. If the guy does have a real gun, this now becomes a gunfight. You better be prepared and able to anchor him immediately, or you are going to have bullets flying both ways. If you miss, you are going to be responsible for where that bullet hit. If it turns out that the guy did not have a real gun AND you missed your target? There is a whole world of trouble waiting for you now.
__________________
http://blueskycountry.tumblr.com
BORDERLANDS: THE GRAPHIC NOVEL
Climb onto the saddle and ride with me through the last remaining Wild West frontier in the world.
Rachen is offline  
Old November 27, 2018, 04:56 PM   #52
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdwhit View Post
What training would you take and document?

* Conflict Resolution?
* Mediation?
* Conciliation?
IMHO, one of those three you listed, plus TCCC and maybe a performance driving class are good tools I'd love to be able to have everyone with a firearm be well trained in. I know that is not going to happen. I do however put some info on verbal judo, de-escalation, Stop the Bleed into the basic course I have taught for years. I also have a legal section written by an attorney and a section dealing with LE written by an LEO. I hope I give my students a foundation on which they continue to build. Over the years I have come to realize that the number who actually do so is minimal. The tools get rusty if you don't use them.
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us
MarkCO is offline  
Old November 29, 2018, 01:11 PM   #53
Naro
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2009
Posts: 9
"...defense of justification for the use of force or the threat of force will depend upon whether the triers of fact will conclude that a reasonable person in the same circumstances would have done the same thing, knowing what the actor knew at the time.
Some key elements of justification are things that are taught in training."


I'd like to see some case law on where the reasonable person standard was held to be the "trained" person. So I, respectfully, think it would be a somewhat risky defense strategy to proffer the defendant's training resume. To do so seems to welcome challenges and nit-picking beyond the "reasonable person" standard. And isn't it the trier of fact, and not the testifying expert, who determines "reasonable person"?

"If you need help on that, let us know."
I'm not sure I need help just because my opinion differs from yours.

Last edited by Naro; November 29, 2018 at 01:16 PM.
Naro is offline  
Old November 30, 2018, 06:26 AM   #54
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,851
Quote:
"So I, respectfully, think it would be a somewhat risky defense strategy to proffer the defendant's training resume. To do so seems to welcome challenges and nit-picking beyond the "reasonable person" standard.
It isn't a matter of "strategy". It is the ability to present, and to have admitted, what may become very critical evidence.

Why do you think that trainers advise signing and dating the training material, sending it to oneself via registered mail, and storing the sealed and unopened package in a safe deposit box?

Quote:
And isn't it the trier of fact, and not the testifying expert, who determines "reasonable person"?
Consider that jurors who are empaneled for a trial will likely have very little, if any, understanding of the dynamics of a use of force incident.

A juror may well have some inkling that drawing and firing while an assailant is at some distance from the defender would not be reasonable. Would the juror understand that waiting until the assailant is within two arms' lengths from the defender would not be reasonable, or that there is a generally accepted distance at which drawing might well be reasonable?

A juror whose only exposure to gunshot wounds has been screen fiction may really believe that one shot would be sufficient, and that firing several shots rapidly would not be reasonable.

A juror may have absolutely no understanding of the fact that a defender cannot know precisely when the assailant is no longer threat after having been shot.

A juror may be persuaded that the defender should have "tried to wound" the assailant.

The expert witness can credibly explain these things, and the fact of the training and the admissibility of the evidence may prove critical in proving that the defender had an objective basis for having believed at the time of the incident that his actions were reasonable.

Quote:
I'm not sure I need help just because my opinion differs from yours.
I do not think that your opinion, as i understand it, is an informed one.

This subject has been covered at length here, in training classes, and in appellate courts. I suggest that you avail yourself of some good instruction in use of force law. Massad Ayoob would be a good source, and so would Andrew Branca.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old November 30, 2018, 08:25 AM   #55
Naro
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2009
Posts: 9
"I do not think that your opinion, as i understand it, is an informed one.
This subject has been covered at length here, in training classes, and in appellate courts. I suggest that you avail yourself of some good instruction in use of force law. Massad Ayoob would be a good source, and so would Andrew Branca."


You have a point, although a bit condescending. I can always learn more. My 40+ years testifying as a forensic expert in state and federal courts probably doesn't entitle me to an opinion different from yours.
Naro is offline  
Old November 30, 2018, 10:10 AM   #56
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,851
Quote:
You have a point, although a bit condescending.
I did not mean to appear condescending.

Quote:
I can always learn more.
We all can.

Quote:
My 40+ years testifying as a forensic expert in state and federal courts probably doesn't entitle me to an opinion different from yours.
I have not been offering my "opinion". I have been trying to explain what is taught in the better courses in use of force law.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old December 12, 2018, 01:33 AM   #57
tepin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 129
I took Ayoob’s MAG20 class and he highly recommends taking notes to document your training and mailing the documents to yourself certified and registered via USPS so if needed at a future time, the package can be opened in the well of the court. I’m also a member of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network and they echo documenting training. People that carry guns will automatically be held to a higher standard. Ayoob cites a case in NY where the expert for the defense was not allowed to discuss the Tueller Drill in front of the jury because the defendant didn’t know about the Tuller Drill at the time of the shooting. Something to think about.
__________________
"Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife." by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. in Brown v. United States, 256 U.S. 335, 343 (16 May 1921).
tepin is offline  
Old December 13, 2018, 07:31 AM   #58
Mannlicher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: North Central Florida & Miami
Posts: 3,094
OldMarksman
Quote:
No one can speak to likelihood, but should your defense of justification fail, the consequences would be extremely serious.

That defense will spend upon evidence and the admissibility of evidence.

Proper documentation of training can be a make or break determinant on that score.
This will remain one of those nebulous questions/issues where there is not enough data or documentation to validate one side or the other. I maintain that there is no valid reason to bother with keeping training records other than for your own use. I have not seen, nor heard of, a case where such records played any part in a court situation. I'd venture to say that the vast majority of folks that have used a gun in self defense did NOT have training, were not 'gun guys', and still came out on top. Both in the encounter and in court. If it ever came to that.
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan
Mannlicher is offline  
Old December 13, 2018, 12:25 PM   #59
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,807
Quote:
So I, respectfully, think it would be a somewhat risky defense strategy to proffer the defendant's training resume. To do so seems to welcome challenges and nit-picking beyond the "reasonable person" standard.
Training is good and I am all for training. Honestly though, there can always be a potential any particular expertise to work in favor of a desired position in court or to work against it.

I can recall an instance where a municipal officer was injured in a brawl and ultimately was assisted by a passerby who help subdue the offender. The offender claimed to have suffered some nerve damage to his hand due to improperly applied restraints ( too tight for too long and not double locked) claiming the officer was negligent and knew better. There was a big brouhaha about the officer having recently received training in the proper application of restraints and specifically the methods to guard against the potential for nerve and tissue injuries. Well guess what?! The injured Officer didn't cuff the offender, the passerby did. Guess what happened to the claim of negligence, unreasonableness, indifferece and malice once joe citizen from the tire store was to blame? It evaporated.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old December 13, 2018, 04:33 PM   #60
Steve in PA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 1999
Location: Northeastern PA
Posts: 719
Well, I'm currently in LE and as an instructor, I need documentation in order to keep up my certifications and in case one of my officers or myself gets involved in a shooting.

So, I keep a copy of the certificate of training/accomplishment/instructor course for my records, along with a copy of the syllabus that is being taught or instructed.

In 5 years, when I am retired, I will do the same thing for any training or classes I continue to take.
__________________
Steve
Steve in PA is offline  
Old December 13, 2018, 05:21 PM   #61
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,066
https://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org...ey_Booklet.pdf

for a case where training came up. If you get hyper-picky about 'records', you miss the point, that training can be an issue and documentation is a good thing.

From a well-known article on self-defense:

http://www.aware.org/legal-articles/...-lisa-j-steele

Quote:
Ideally, the client will also have some formal training in the use of deadly force which will allow the client's teacher to testify about the client's training in order to show that the client's actions were subjectively reasonable. If the client has not had any formal training, counsel may still seek an expert to testify about use of force issues. However, the attorney may encounter difficulty showing that the expert's opinion is relevant if it was not the basis for the client's subjective decision. The attorney could offer expert testimony to show that the client's actions were objectively reasonable.
These should answer the common cliche that I never heard of case, blah, blah.

There are more. Frank Ettin has posted a list of interesting cases several times.

BTW, in the legal literature there are discussions of martial arts training and legal issues in self-defense.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old December 14, 2018, 08:44 AM   #62
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,851
Quote:
This will remain one of those nebulous questions/issues where there is not enough data or documentation to validate one side or the other.
The principles of justification for the use of force are well established and are not "nebulous". They are defined in law--black law and case law.

Quote:
I maintain that there is no valid reason to bother with keeping training records other than for your own use.
That is not an informed opinion.

Quote:
I have not seen, nor heard of, a case where such records played any part in a court situation.
Others have. Glenn has pointed out a case in which the records proved very unhelpful to a defendant, and Masssad Ayoob tells of a case where the lack of verifiable records prevented the introduction of exculpatory evidence in a trial.

Quote:
I'd venture to say that the vast majority of folks that have used a gun in self defense did NOT have training, were not 'gun guys', and still came out on top. Both in the encounter and in court. If it ever came to that.
Probably so. But the "vast majority" is not meaningful in real cases.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old December 14, 2018, 10:56 AM   #63
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,226
Again, its what you can PROVE you knew at the time of the shooting.

Tueller drill?? Prove you knew about proximity vs time
Failure to stop shot??? Prove you knew about handgun failues.
Why didnt you just shoot him in the leg like on tv? Prove you knew about the problems with that concept

Expert witnesses are GREAT, but if you cant show that YOU knew AT THE TIME of the shoot, their testimony about what THEY knew is not relevant.

So, without training records showing YOUR knowledge, how do you show the Jury what you knew? Remember, with the “Reasonable man doctrine” that Reasonable man had all the knowledge AND training you had at the time of the shooting. Without records, that “Reasonable man” is kinda ignorant.
Sharkbite is offline  
Old December 16, 2018, 03:56 PM   #64
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,807
Quote:
Again, its what you can PROVE you knew at the time of the shooting.
If someone wants to assert that I didn't know something I claim to have known at the time of the incident, .. let them prove that I didn't. If I can speak intelligently about it, let a jury decide.

It gets comical at some point. Heck, I cant prove 90% of what I know on any subject. "how did you estimate the speed of the vehicle without an instrument".. well, I know the distance between telephone poles and I did some rough math based on the the number of seconds it took the vehicle to pass 4 poles. PROVE IT SIR!! prove that someone didn't tell you that during the last recess!!! Come on, it just gets silly at some point but if it makes you feel better to amass your training certificates.. have at it. I will stick with the common layman/good Samaritan standard and roll the dice with what they believe or don't believe.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; December 16, 2018 at 04:01 PM.
FireForged is offline  
Old January 23, 2019, 08:46 AM   #65
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,851
Quote:
If someone wants to assert that I didn't know something I claim to have known at the time of the incident, .. let them prove that I didn't. ...

PROVE IT SIR!! prove that someone didn't tell you that during the last recess!!!
I wonder if the defendant in the actual case that Ayoob talks about, in which expert testimony regarding the Tueller drill was not admitted by the judge due to lack of verifiable documentation, wondered afterward why that kind of interpretation of legal procedure did not work for him.

Quote:
I will stick with the common layman/good Samaritan standard and roll the dice with what they believe or don't believe.
There can be a whole lot at stake on such a roll....
OldMarksman is offline  
Old January 23, 2019, 01:05 PM   #66
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,807
There is a difference between wanting to establish that you know something more than the average person and a circumstance where you may not want to invite being held to a higher standard than the average person.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old January 23, 2019, 09:17 PM   #67
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,851
Quote:
There is a difference between wanting to establish that you know something more than the average person and a circumstance where you may not want to invite being held to a higher standard than the average person.
What is that supposed to mean?
OldMarksman is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08957 seconds with 8 queries