115 gr VS 230 gr

[gwpercle]

Of course bullet placement trumps bullet weight or speed. A 40 grain 22 cal. bullet to the brain or heart will kill effectively .
My wife keeps telling me and Elmer Keith's thought's were....bigger is better, all other things being equal !

I'll vote .45 and 230 grains.

Gary

[Green Lantern]

OK guys check this info out

A 9mm round that has more muzzle energy than a 45acp.

Caliber: 9mm
Bullet Weight: 124 Grains
Bullet Type: Full Metal Jacket Projectile
Muzzle velocity: 1150 fps

Muzzle energy: 364 ft/lbs

Am I learning that ammo choice is important factor?

Remember I'm new to guns, just this year.

[Green Lantern]

Check the numbers on this bad boy 9mm.


9mm Luger +P, 9x19mm
115 Grain
Full Metal Jacket Bullet
Reloadable Brass Cased
Non Corrosive Primers
Muzzle Velocity: 1250 fps

Muzzle Energy: 399 ft/lbs

[Danoobie]

IMO, there's no real "winner" here, you have to embrace them both
for what they are. 9mm is a very efficient cartridge for it's size.
The 45ACP, designed by John Browning, does what it was designed to
do, very well. The drawback to 45ACP is it's very strong in it's specific
purpose, but fades quickly beyond it. Past SD distances, it is a heavy,slow,
under-powered round.

[MandolinMan]

I own both calibers, carry both, and greatly enjoy shooting both, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.

My two favorite self defense loading in 9mm and .45 auto are:

124 grain Speer Gold Dot ( standard pressure). Vel. 1150 FPS. KE 364 ft. lbs
230 grain Speer Gold Dot ( standard pressure) Vel. 890 FPS. KE 405 ft. lbs.

Is there a difference? Certainly. The question, however, is whether or not this difference is enough to matter. The FBI stated the following:

“There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto.” They went on to say that they believe 9mm possesses slightly better penetration characteristics.

The choice is yours. Choose whatever makes you happy.

[CDW4ME]

Chrono averages from my Glocks, the 19 & 30 are similar in height / length
15 rounds in free places vs 10
In restrictive places (mag limits) the 30 would be an easy choice for me.
Glock 19:
Remington HTP 115 gr. +P @ 1,177 fps / 354# KE
Remington 124 gr. +P Golden Saber @ 1,136 fps / 355# KE
Federal HST 147 gr +P @ 1,044 fps / 356# KE
Federal HST 124 gr. +P @ 1,210 fps / 403# KE
Glock 30SF
Federal Hydra-Shok 230 gr. @ 811 fps / 336# KE
Federal Hydra-Shok 185 +P @ 1,005 fps / 415# KE
Winchester Ranger T 230 gr. @ 903 fps /417# KE
Remington Golden Saber 185 +P @ 1,008 fps / 418# KE

Check out this test for differences in bullet performance:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

[ShootistPRS]

Energy doesn't stop an attacker. To stop an attack you can either destroy the central nervous system or cause massive damage to the Cardiod-pulmonary system. There are very few handguns that can do the latter and darn few shooters who can do the former.

[jr24]

This is my opinion, as there isn't hard science or evidence on the objective effectiveness of handgun rounds.

I feel energy means essencially nothing for handgun effect except in where it relates to penetration and expansion, as hitting the CNS or blood bearing organs is really all you can do with a pistol. Hydrostatic shock doesn't come into play until you hit rifles.

So, look at gel tests (best comparison we have) and decide which pair of penetration and expansion meets your needs when recoil and capacity are factors.

In 9mm I favor 124 or 147 grain hollowpoints over 115 grain. In .45 I favor 230 grain.

[481]

Originally Posted by 1goodshot:

E=mc2
So no

Shooting ''nuclear-tipped'' ammo are we?

[hdwhit]

Green Lantern wrote:
Do I effectively double the firepower if I switch from a 115 gr to a 230 gr bullet?

IF you equate kinetic energy at the muzzle with "firepower" and IF the velocity of the projectiles is the same, then doubling the bullet weight will indeed double the energy and thus "firepower".

In Newtonian physics, the formula for Energy is 1/2 Mass * Velocity * Velocity, so doubling the mass will double the energy.

But, this is an almost purely academic exercise as it would require intentionally downloading the cartridge to keep the velocity of the lighter bullet equal to that of the heavier bullet.

[hdwhit]

Green Lantern wrote:
Am I learning that ammo choice is important factor?

Not really.

If you're talking 300 or 400 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle, a difference of 20, 30, 40 or even 50 foot-pounds can be ignored for most practical purposes.

First, unless you are shooting your victim in the back of their neck execution-style, your victim will be far enough away that the bullet will strike the target with less velocity (and thus much less energy) than when it left the muzzle.

Second, the bullet has to remain in the victim for fully deposit all of its energy. If the bullet passes through, then the energy expended in carrying it on its journey after passing through the target was not expended damaging the target.

Third, shot placement trumps both mass and energy. If I shoot you in the heart with a 25 ACP, then between tissue damage, loss of blood and disruption of the heart's electrical currents, odds are that you will die almost instantly. If I shoot you through your thigh with a 45 ACP, then if I don't strike a major artery, you will not only probably live, you might not even be taken out of the fight.

Bottom line is that anyone who tells you that this one factor or that one factor, be it bullet weight, muzzle energy, muzzle velocity, bullet configuration, etc., is all you need to be concerned with in evaluating a cartridge (for anything other than specialist work) simply doesn't know what they're talking about. Take the time to do your homework and learn the role that each factor in ballistics plays in predicting the performance of a bullet, both in flight and then at the target, so that you have a basis for making an informed decision in how to balance each of the factors when making the decision which cartridge and bullet you are going to use.

[vba]

I'm in the Taylor KO or more to the momentum camp. So personally, I would vote for a 230 grain FMJ vs. 115 FMJ.

[the possum]

I dispatched some coons last night with a .45 using 500 ft-lb loads. But I think the numbers being tossed around in this thread really demonstrate how puny the common defensive rounds are. You want "stopping power"? Then use a mag charge of buckshot at over 2600 ft-lbs, or a .300 winmag at 3850 ft-lbs.

[Lohman446]

I dispatched some coons last night with a .45 using 500 ft-lb loads. But I think the numbers being tossed around in this thread really demonstrate how puny the common defensive rounds are. You want "stopping power"? Then use a mag charge of buckshot at over 2600 ft-lbs, or a .300 winmag at 3850 ft-lbs.

Someday I will make the chart but I agree with you. If you were to list common rounds (from handgun to rifle) you would have a group that occupied an area on the far left of the chart pretty close to each other (from about 300 to 600 ft lbs of energy). This group would encompass the vast majority of common SD rounds. They have a lot more in common with one another then they do with the rest of the chart.

[Creek Henry]

Shooting someone in the foot would slow them down too.

Either round is adaquate. Which do you shoot better when under pressure?

[SA1911]

It's all about momentum. 230 grains has 115 grain bullets whipped all to heck in momentum.

Creek Henry,

Some cartridges are far more adequate than others.

I don't want adequate. I want best for saving my life.

[JohnKSa]

Some cartridges are far more adequate than others.

I don't want adequate. I want best for saving my life.

Indeed. So 500 S&W then? It sure beats 115gr (and 230gr) for momentum.

Or is .45ACP adequate in your opinion?

[agtman]

I like a poly-coated 220gn FP hardcast @ 1200fps/704fpe.

In 10mm AUTO ... It's a high-n-hard 'fight-stopping' load.

[otasan]

I'd stay with my 17-shot 9mm. 115gr JHP +p from Corbon. 1400 FPS does the job.

[bamaranger]

The OP has his terminology mixed up. Firepower, as defined in his on follow on posts, and the common understanding of the work, refers to rate and amount of fire. A round to round comparsison of two SINGLE rounds, given the common understanding of the term firepower, is not possible.

[Siggy-06]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy

Here's a link with some good info. It shows calculations that will involve velocity and mass of the bullet.

Will you get double? No. Most people follow FBI standards when it comes to bullet selection anyways. I'd rather have 17 rounds of 9mm compared to 13 rounds of .45acp(think glock 17 vs 21).

[ThomasT]

It was proven a long time ago that the 45 was a better man stopper than a 38, still applies when you say 9MM. Maybe not double tho.

I sure would like to know where you found that "Proof"? And which .38 are you talking about?

It at least doubles plus it makes bigger holes.

Once again, got any data to back that up?

[K_Mac]

The 9MM won't knock the steel plate down but the 45 will. It was proven a long time ago that the 45 was a better man stopper than a 38, still applies when you say 9MM. Maybe not double tho.

I will take a 124 gr JHP at about 1100 fps from my 9 mm compact over a similar sized 45. Why? First, I have never seen any evidence that a .45 was a "better man stopper" than 9 mm; second, I am faster and more accurate with my 9 than a comparable sized .45; and third, I have more rounds available in my 9. By my reconning that makes my 9 mm a much better choice than a 45, for me. Y'all carry what you wish.

[agtman]

With a few exceptions, light-n-fluffy has a spotty history of "stopping power." As far as capacity, mo' rounds ain't always better when you can't miss fast enough.

Folks with .45s and 10mms, at least on the 1911-platform, practice that old relic called marksmanship.

Historically speaking, the .45 with ball ammo won 3.5 wars, declared or undeclared. The 9-minimeter, during roughly the same period, proved itself useful at executing ethnic minorities, dissidents, POWs, and assorted unfortunates, usually at point-blank range into a road-side ditch.

[JohnKSa]

As far as capacity, mo' rounds ain't always better when you can't miss fast enough.

Folks with .45s and 10mms, at least on the 1911-platform, practice that old relic called marksmanship.

An interesting argument given that qualification and competition scores tend to indicate that people miss less and have better marksmanship with 9mm than with heavier calibers.

Historically speaking, the .45 with ball ammo won 3.5 wars...

Even if we ignore air power, naval power, armored vehicles, artillery and any other heavy weaponry and focus only on small arms, it's obvious that wars aren't won by pistols.

1911s made up somewhere around 20% of U.S. fielded small arms during the WWII era.

In modern times, comparing the M16/M4 numbers to the M9 numbers indicates that the military purchases 10-15 rifles for every pistol.

There are likely some good arguments for the .45ACP over the 9mm, but these two fall flat.