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Old May 18, 2018, 01:51 PM   #51
marine6680
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Statistical relevance is just a numbers game.

Police shoot several thousand people every year. If you are conservative, you can go with a few hundred are shot with a 5.56 rifle.

Now you may be able to dig up specific numbers, nut I have niether the time nor the inclination to do so.

But a few hundred people over the course of several years is plenty data for relevance.


Sheesh, I still haven't seen proper counter data. Claiming someone isn't producing enough evidence for their position, while likewise not providing relevant data and evidence yourself... There is a word for that.

Combat is not home defense, is not police use...

There is no bullet that the military can legally field with active duty members that can perform as well as ammo available to the civilian market.

The military is constrained, so designs have to meet certain criteria, and be designed to work in a variety of situations and ranges...


Police and civilians have only one scenario they really need to consider... Terminal performance on unarmored targets inside 50yds. Police may have other scenarios that crop up, but that is the primary focus most of the time.

Apple and orange comparisons are invalid.

Military combat experience means Jack in civilian HD ammo selection.
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Old May 18, 2018, 05:22 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by rickyrick View Post
Whenever did anyone ask about special forces?
I mean we aren’t shooting across a valley. We are talking about the living room.
Everyone needs to understand that there’s a good chance that a bad guy won’t go down with the first shot, no matter what you use. A person can very easily be taken down in one shot, but you can’t count on it. The best bet it to use something that you can shoot again accurately.
Not everyone has the option to put a rifle or shotgun in every room, especially if there’s kids around.

I guess .223 should come with warnings “This Product is NOT Suitable for Defensive Use. This ammunition will not stop aggressors. Should you attemp to use this ammunition in a defensive manner, the perpetrator will magically remain unharmed while the projectile will reek havoc on the neighborhood. The producer of this timid .223 ammunition, recommends using whatever mystery ammunition “TopTier Operators” have discovered in the generous governmental deep pockets. They keep it next to the unicorn dust.

This is the simplest question with the simplest answer but it always gets blown out of proportion.

Q: Can you use .223/5.56 ammunition for defense?
A: yes, use expanding ammunition not military ammunition.
See, it’s not that hard.
I've seen enough body cam footage of ARs in police hands to not doubt them in the slightest.

Same for shotguns as well. But I recall one video where an officer emptied his shotgun (4 round 870 police) at a barricaded suspect and when empty he threw the shotgun on the ground, reduced to a paperweight. An AR would have had 26 more shots to go.
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Old May 18, 2018, 05:45 PM   #53
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Plenty of body can footage that shows the effectiveness of proper round selection.
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Old May 23, 2018, 11:33 AM   #54
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Quote:
Statistical relevance is just a numbers game.
Brilliant!

Quote:
Combat is not home defense,
Home Defense certainly involves combat unless you are just going to ask nicely for them to leave and stop robbing/murdering your family!!

Yes, it was very tempting to take a much lower road with these statements, LOL!!!



Here is some of the results from the Small Arms Conference....



You simply cannot fit all of DoD acquisitions into one mold or generalization. You can say the Tier 1 units are the most focused on the needs of the warfighter and nothing else. As Col. Beckwith once said in reply to Army Bean counters discussing the budget of a new unit, "This isn't General Mills and we are not making Corn Flakes."



The lethality studies are on-going and so far no "wonder bullet" has surfaced that can overcome the physics of a varmint round that is illegal in many states to be used for Deer Hunting being asked to produce consistent one round incapacitation of a human being.
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Old May 23, 2018, 12:52 PM   #55
Bartholomew Roberts
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You aren’t going to get consistent one round incapacitation on a human being from anything remotely man portable. I’ve seen a shoat run after being shot with a .50 BMG at less than 200yds.

Expecting that level of performance is unrealistic.

Also, the yellow highlighted part is horsehockey. COTS 5.56mm ammo isn’t yaw dependent. M855 is. Not only is that a significant difference, , the same PM-MAS presenter (Lt. Col. Woods) even agrees that lack of yaw dependency is a benefit of M855A1 over M855 in the presentation be gives the year after that one.

In any case, the takeaway message should be the “shot placement matters” message.

Quote:
that is illegal in many states to be used for Deer Hunting
How many states is 5.56 illegal for deer hunting in?

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; May 23, 2018 at 01:56 PM.
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Old May 23, 2018, 01:15 PM   #56
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"Commercially available 5.56 rounds"

Those are just surplus 5.56 or made using the same components.

I have never personally seen a soft point 5.56, or a vmax loaded into a 5.56...

Got any data showing exactly what was used in the testing?

I have a very hard time believing 855 (not 855A1) is as lethal as a 223 62gr softpoint, at all practical ranges. (0-300yds)


In the end, military personnel will always complain about their gear. And they tend to look at the enemies gear with awe or admiration. Maybe not all gear, but certainly the rifles and ammo... Maybe systems like the RPG... As they see them be effective.

It's human nature to focus mostly on the negative... Their bullets kill our guys. (forgetting when they don't) Our bullets don't kill them. (Ignoring when they do)

If we used 7.62x39, our guys would complain that it suck major at 300yds and beyond, due to poor ballistics... Or they would come up with some other complaint.

7.62x39 isn't magic bullet, niether is 308/7.62... heck or any others available now.

All have strengths and weaknesses... Compromises and trade offs.

It's the nature of small arms ammo design.

Last edited by marine6680; May 23, 2018 at 01:28 PM.
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Old May 23, 2018, 01:34 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
You aren’t going to get consistent one round incapacitation on a human being from anything remotely man portable.
Flamethrower?
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Old May 23, 2018, 01:42 PM   #58
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Maybe... But they have horrible max effective range.

And the collateral damage to your home would be horrendous.
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Old May 23, 2018, 01:48 PM   #59
Bartholomew Roberts
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Flamethrower?
People run OK when they get set on fire. Thermobaric maybe.
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Old May 23, 2018, 02:30 PM   #60
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Why are we still talking military ammunition? Military ammunition isn’t suitable for home defense or hunting. It will kill, but it’s not ideal.
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Old May 23, 2018, 02:35 PM   #61
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They may run, but they cease to post a direct threat at that point. So pretty much instant incapacitation in that sense.
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Old May 23, 2018, 03:46 PM   #62
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Those are just surplus 5.56 or made using the same components.
LOL, so the Army is going to buy surplus 5.56mm NATO ball, test it and conclude it has the same performance as current 5.56mm NATO ball.

You really think that?

COTS - Commercial Off The Shelf means just that.....

The latest and greatest "most lethal" wonder bullet being produced.....

Quote:
How many states is 5.56 illegal for deer hunting in?
Alabama- centerfire
Alaska- centerfire
Alberta- .23 and up centerfire
Arizona- centerfire
Arkansas- .22 and up centerfire
California- centerfire
Colorado- .24 and up, 70grn or larger bullet/ minimum of 1000ft/lbs at 100 yards
Connecticut- .243 and up if legal in your area
Delaware- shotgun/muzzle loader
Florida- centerfire
Georgia- .22 and up centerfire
Hawaii- Any rifle with at least 1200 ft/lbs of ME. This would start at around .223 I think
Idaho- Centerfire (cannot weigh more than 16 lbs?)
Illinois- Shotgun/ML/Pistol only
Indiana- Rifles with pistol calibers/shotgun/ML/Pistols
Iowa- .24 or larger centerfire only for antlerless season in part of the state.
Kansas- .23 or larger centerfire (actually says larger than .23 so maybe .24 is the mininum)

kentucky- centerfire
Louisiana- .22 and up centerfire
Maine- .22 magnum rimfire and up!
Manitoba- Centerfire, but it says .23 and below not recommended. Does not say illegal though.
Maryland- ME of at least 1200 ft/lbs
Mass- Shotgun/ML
Michigan- centerfire in certain areas
Minnesota- .24 and up centerfire
Mississippi- No restrictions that I could find
Missouri- centerfire
Montana- No restrictions
Nebraska- Rifles with 900 ft/lbs or more at 100 yards
Nevada- .22 centerfire and up
New Hampshire- centerfire
New Jersey- shotgun only
New Mexico- centerfire
New York- centerfire
North Carolina- No restrictions
North Dakota- .22-.49 centerfire
Nova Scotia- .23 and up
Ohio- Shotgun/ML
Oklahoma- centerfire with 55 grn or heavier bullet
Ontario- centerfire
Oregon- .22 centerfire and up
Pennsylvania- centerfire
Quebec- 6mm/.243 and up
Rhode Island- shotgun/ML
Saskatchewan- .24 and up
South Carolina- centerfire
South Dakota- rifles with 1,000 ft/lbs or more ME
Tennessee- centerfire
Texas- centerfire
Utah- centerfire
vermont- No restriction
Virginia- .23 centerfire and up
Washington- .24 centerfire and up
West Virginia- .25 rimfire and up and all centerfire
Wisconsin- .22 centerfire and up
Wyoming- .23 centerfire and up

https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/whi...ers-state.html


Quote:
5.56 NATO or 223 Remington is considered too light for deer by most experts,
https://www.biggamelogic.com/Article...d-deer-hunting

Quote:
I am a successful hunter and have killed deer in other states with a .223 caliber rifle. Why can't I use my .223 to hunt deer in Washington State?
Quote:
Big game, except cougar, must be hunted with a minimum of .24 caliber (6mm) centerfire rifle. Cougar may be hunted with a .22 caliber centerfire rifle. Rimfire rifles are not legal for big game.

In Washington, with the exception of cougar, a .24 caliber rifle is legal for all big game, including deer, goat, sheep, elk, and moose. Although it is okay to do so, few hunters actually use a .24 caliber rifle to hunt game larger than deer, due to the lack of knockdown power. The Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission did not want to establish a sliding scale of legal rifle calibers by species, so it opted for the .24 caliber rule.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/1...ngton+State%3F
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Old May 23, 2018, 03:49 PM   #63
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Quote:
You aren’t going to get consistent one round incapacitation on a human being from anything remotely man portable.

Yeah but we can do better than an average of 8 rounds required to put them out of the fight.
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Old May 23, 2018, 03:54 PM   #64
Count Les Neins
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Originally Posted by seeker_two View Post
Why do you choose a rifle chambered in 5.56 NATO / .223 for a home-defense long gun? What advantages does it have over a shotgun or a pistol-caliber carbine?

Thanks in advance.....
Why, indeed...
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Old May 23, 2018, 04:52 PM   #65
marine6680
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Ok... Well...

What loads did they test?

They specifically said commercial 5.56 ammo... Not commercial 223 ammo.

And I still haven't seen any 62gr softpoint 5.56 in the store, let alone ballistic topped vmax in 5.56 spec loadings.
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Old May 23, 2018, 05:05 PM   #66
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The study didn't find a significant difference between 5.56 rounds in CQB lethality, whether they were COTS, M855, M193 or other. The study also didn't find any difference using 7.62 M80 ball fired from an M14.



link:

The specific values of the chart are not meaningful; what is meaningful is the fact that all of the rounds act in the same band of performance. Interestingly, the one 7.62mm round that received the full evaluation,
the M80 fired from the M14 rifle, performed in the same band of
performance, which would indicate that for M80 ammunition at
least there appears to be no benefit to the larger caliber at close
quarters range.



Your study does emphasize the importance of yaw in bullet performance: Shot placement aside, why is it that some Soldiers report “through and-through” hits while others report no such problems, despite using the same weapons and ammunition? The phenomenon of bullet yaw can explain such differences in performance.

Good commercial ammunition isn't yaw dependent. If your study can't find a performance differences between 7.62 ball, various military 5.56 rounds and commercial off the shelf 5.56 rounds but can find a difference between m855 ball that impacts at a high yaw angle and m855 ball that impacts at a low angle, I'd say it isn't a very good study.
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Old May 23, 2018, 05:34 PM   #67
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I give up lol.
.223 won’t kill anything bigger than a squirrel.
Quote:
just walk out on the balcony here ... put that double-barrelled shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house.'
We will just follow the former Vice President’s advice.
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Old May 23, 2018, 06:13 PM   #68
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Actually mine is a 300 Blackout AR pistol loaded with 110 grain supersonics.
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Old May 23, 2018, 06:27 PM   #69
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There is no bullet that the military can legally field with active duty members that can perform as well as ammo available to the civilian market.
55 grain FMJ within the fragmentation threshold is pretty devastating. MK262 MOD 1 is pretty devastating. To say that they are not as effective as a 62 grain SP due to being yaw dependent shows a lack of understanding in the wound mechanisms of each.

The problem is finding one that works within a wider variety of variables, in that, the 62/64 grain bonded SP is superior.
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Old May 23, 2018, 06:27 PM   #70
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The ineffectiveness of the .223 was exemplified by the lack of fatalities in Wash DC and in Las Vegas?
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Old May 23, 2018, 06:28 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by marine6680 View Post
Ok... Well...

What loads did they test?

They specifically said commercial 5.56 ammo... Not commercial 223 ammo.

And I still haven't seen any 62gr softpoint 5.56 in the store, let alone ballistic topped vmax in 5.56 spec loadings.
I'm interested in knowing the tested loads as well.....

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Old May 23, 2018, 06:39 PM   #72
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You know Art, some just don’t get it. I’m throwing in the towel on this one.
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Old May 23, 2018, 06:46 PM   #73
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Nanuk...

You are not saying anything that refutes what I said though.


Sure, those rounds can work well under good conditions. But even then, they are not going to out perform a quality commercial load. At best they may be equal... When they work.

But due to their being more particular for optimum performance, a round that is more forgiving in when it performs well, is superior.

It's a choice between works well some of the time, and works well most of the time...

You said it yourself when you say that finding something that works under a wider set of conditions is better.


Maybe I was being a bit simplistic in my previous statement, but I never meant it as that those rounds were not effective in any conditions.


As far as several states... Which seems to be the significant minority... Not thinking 223 is deer hunting worthy...

So what... Since when are a bunch of beurocrats ballistic experts... Also, many of these laws have been on the books for a long time, and ammo development has come a long way.

Many many hunters every year drop deer and large pigs with single shots from a 223.

While deer and pigs are not a perfect human analog, they do tend to be in a similar weight range and chest cavity size of an average adult man...

These hunters prove time and time again that a good bullet, placed in the right area, will drop a 150-200lb critter effectively.

Last edited by marine6680; May 23, 2018 at 06:57 PM.
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Old May 23, 2018, 06:53 PM   #74
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Compact, semi-auto 12 ga. with 00 buckshot.
People that aren't trained, are more than not likely to miss critical shot placement by a mile under stress.
Shotty is much more likely to end the the threat.

Size of the hole(s), does matter...
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Old May 23, 2018, 06:59 PM   #75
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55 grain FMJ within the fragmentation threshold is pretty devastating.
Yep. No doubt out of a 20” barrel with a 1/12 twist, that bullet performs nicely. The problem
is NOBODY shoots that long a barrel or that slow a twist anymore.

10.5” 1/7’s are the norm now and that bullet does not yaw and fragment like it should at slower velocities and more spin.

M855 is WORSE yet.

Like has been said a bunch of times....no current Military load will perform as good as a commercial SP/ ballistic tip 223 round in stopping people
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