Savage scout rifle

[wwhitman]

First off, let me say that I didn't see an introductions forum so I'll just say here thanks for letting me join and it looks like a nice place.

Savage is upgrading the stock on its scout rifle, and it now looks like this:

https://www.range365.com/savage-110-...-accufit-stock

(I think I posted the image link correctly under the new rules?)

I have another bolt rifle and scope that just doesn't fit me and I like the idea of a short rifle with open sights. The Savage Scout has a rear peep sight and a guarded front blade that my old eyes can see so that makes it a plus. Also a ten round detachable magazine, with the stock adjustable for LOP and comb area. Also the short barrel with muzzle brake should be a real boomer! So I'm gonna see if the LGS wants my old bolt gun and then maybe I'll come home with the scout. What do folks here think of it? Opinions? Thanks.

[T. O'Heir]

Hi. The 'Scout' concept was one of Jeff Cooper's more stupid ideas. He came up with it when no military anywhere would ever consider a bolt action rifle of any kind for anybody in the military except snipers.
Anyway, the issue with a 7.72 lbs., 16.5", .308 with a muzzle brake is the muzzle flash and blast. It'll be decidedly unpleasant. Far too much velocity loss too.
"...that just doesn't fit me..." That's easily and inexpensively fixed. Either a recoil pad that's sanded(bench mounted belt sander is best.) to fit or another stock. Boyd's is doing some nice laminated stocks for not a big pile of money.
"...LGS wants my old bolt gun..." Better to sell the thing privately. Dealers base what they'll give on their wholesale price and how fast they think they can sell it. And Spring is a bad time of year to try and sell a deer rifle if that's what it is. Varmint rifles sell this time of year.

[DPris]

I've got one coming.
It looks like the best Scout Savage has done yet, in concept.
We'll have to see how it runs.
Denis

[jmr40]

That does look like an improvement, and welcome to TFL.

Cooper never intended the Scout as a military rifle. It was intended as a do all "survival" rifle that could serve dual purposes as both a hunting and SD rifle. In the hands of someone wanting to learn how to work a bolt gun they are pretty darn fast. Most countries still used bolt guns effectively through WW-2 so it certainly has merit.

I like the basic Scout concept. Cooper's specs called for either a forward mounted scope and/or iron sights. With the optics choices he had to work with, and the fact that he envisioned quicker loading via stripper clips I understand why he wanted the forward mounted scope. But with today's optics, and detachable magazines I disagree with that one principle. And I think that Cooper would agree if he were still alive. If you read his accounts his ideal Scout rifle evolved over time and I don't think even he ever had one that met all of his requirements.

I had one of the original Savage Scouts and liked it well enough. I removed the rail, mounted a 1-4X20 scope conventionally in QD mounts and added a rear sight. I could see me trying that again with this version.

Velocity loss is no big deal. I have 22, 20, and 18" 308's currently. There is 50-60 fps velocity loss from longest to shortest. Even with a 16" barrel I'd expect less than 100 fps. I didn't have a chronograph when I owned the other one.

[DPris]

I've worked with the first two Savage Scouts, this one looks to be miles ahead of those.
Evolution at work.
Denis

[wwhitman]

Good info, thank you all.

[hooligan1]

My son bought one nice light accurate but it's got one problem the P bass in the scope rear scope base mount on the receiver all four holes are drilled off center it's got to go back.

[Mobuck]

The "scout" concept is only advantageous if you plan to use the stripper clip loading feature.

[wwhitman]

It has a a removable magazine enabling the use of more than one mag to facilitate fast reloading.

[ATCDoktor]

The "scout" concept is only advantageous if you plan to use the stripper clip loading featur

Or the rifle you’re scoping is a pain in the rear to scope conventionally and get a proper cheekweld:

[wwhitman]

Originally Posted by ATCDoktor

Or the rifle you’re scoping is a pain in the rear to scope conventionally and get a proper cheekweld:

SOCOM?

[ATCDoktor]

SOCOM

The one in the wood stock is a SOCOM, the one in the painted stock is a Scout Squad (18” barrel).

[bamaranger]

When I read negativity regards Coopers Scout concepts, rifles, I wonder how much time the party might have spent with one, or how many scouts they have owned.

As has been stated many times here when the scout bashing begins, the scout rifle was never intended as a military only rifle. The concept was and still is for a general purpose, or utility rifle, that could fight, hunt, or be used for whatever purpose the owner might apply. Light, handy, with sufficient power were important factors......rate of fire was not. Cooper once used the phrase "little more cumbersome than a walking stick" (or close that) and I like it.

The capability to use stripper clips (due to the forward mounted scoutscope) was thought as desirable and a feature of many scouts built upon a Mauser or Springfield action. But many scouts, many if not all commercial scouts, and the uber scout, the Steyer, did not have this feature. Handiness with sufficient power, were/are a good scouts biggest attribute.

"The additions of an IER 'scope, the scoutscope, to a rifle, does not a scout rifle make." I believe that is a direct Cooper quote. The various M1/M14 based rifles with IER scopes are still too heavy to be considered handy and portable, and though scoutscoped, they are not scout rifles by definition. Serious rifles ( I have an IER equipped M1) but overly bulky and heavy.

All things tactical sell these days, and so scout rifles get flash hiders, big box mags and other features, but slim, trim, compact and portable were the Scouts earmarks.

[Mobuck]

"Or the rifle you’re scoping is a pain in the rear to scope conventionally and get a proper cheekweld:"
I can agree with that, BUT

Personally, I don't see the M1A(or M14 if you wore big boy pants forty something years ago) as being anything even close to what Cooper was pushing nor was a magazine fed bolt action(those magazines get lost now and then leaving you packing a single shot)

[wwhitman]

Like most mag fed rifles, one can purchase more than one mag. I certainly would. If the LGS ever gets it in, I'll check it out and post what I think about it.

[agtman]

I would pretty much echo Jmr40's comment.

By the way, here's the link to a Forum dedicated to Cooper's Scout Rifle (SR), it's theory, practice, and accessories, and about anything else that's relevant and "Scout-ish."

http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php

Savage is upgrading the stock on its scout rifle, and it now looks like this: https://www.range365.com/savage-110-...-accufit-stock

For me, the problem with Savage's Scout variant was my range experience with their very earlier first entry. While not junk, I thought the one an acquaintance at our club allowed me to examine and shoot was flimsy, fragile-feeling, and not terribly accurate (at 100-yds), although that had nothing to do with the forward-mounted Leupy scout optic. It was probably the ammo. While I definitely liked the receiver mounted aperture sight, it looked easily broken if somehow bumped hard, let alone if the weapon was dropped while hunting in the boonies. As far as I recall, it wasn't stripper clip loadable. I wanted to like it but decided to pass.

That said, Savage's newer version, as well as Ruger's GSR entry, both look to be sturdier, more robust specimens of what a field-practical Scout rifle should be.

In fact, had I not pursued trying to adapt most of the attributes of Cooper's bolt SR to a semi-automatic platform, I'd probably already have one or the other, or maybe a custom.

Instead, coming from a Service Rifle/Match shooting background with the M1 Garand and the M1A, and having already spent a few thousand rounds behind my 18" 7.62/.308 Tanker, I felt the M1 provided a 'Scout-ish' platform I'd prefer over a bolt - at least for now.

I'd already seen a full size M1 ('06 chambering) at our range that had been outfitted by the owner with Ultimak's forward rail mount, on which he'd attached a LER pistol scope in QD rings for hunting. After watching him run three or four 5-rd "hunting" clips through it and seeing how it grouped at 100-yds, I was convinced the mount was rock solid and the platform had merit. But it would need to be shorter and lighter to be of practical use. The upside consideration, of course, was that the M1 weapons-system already has the best and sturdiest battle sights ever fielded anywhere in the world, and the Ultimak set-up eliminated the need to modify or remove the rear sight to mount an optic. Obviously it was clip fed, again without interference of a receiver-mounted scope.

I was aware of S.A.'s 16" SOCOM with the forward rail, but I already some old "beater" M1s for doner rifles (being old DCM 'Rack Grade' M1s I picked up for cheap long ago). So those ended up getting re-purposed into 'Scout' configuration.

Shuff's Parkerizing built me two 16" Mini-G faux-'Scouts' using Ultimak forward rail mounts. One of the RG's had a salvageable USGI barrel, so I retained the '06 chambering, and essentially it's become my dedicated "hunter" Mini-Scout. On the other, the GI barrel was a tomato-stake anyway, so Shuff re-barreled it with a 16" Criterion in .308. Super accurate, that one is my "all-around" Mini-scout.

Either Mini can run a 2.75x Burris or 4x Weaver scout scope in QD rings on the Ultimak, or a RDS, or just go it irons-only. Both are great shooters, although the '06 is a bit blasty, but for the one or two shots needed when deer or hog hunting, it's not bad. The gas systems on both are regulated by Schuster Mfg.'s adjustable gas plug, which allows you to 'tune' the gas-driven op rod to the particular load you're shooting and achieve reliable cycling.

What's the downside to a semi-auto Scout built off an M1 (or an M1A, for that matter)?

Well, it'll never make Cooper's weight specs. Possibly 'Scout-erizing' an M1 carbine might, but I've never been a fan of the .30 carbine cartridge, so that sort of project never interested me.

The use of a detachable mag as part of the SR set-up is more of a personal choice, IMO. Both of my Minis, being clip-fed, are 50-states legal.

Plus, where a state's hunting regs permit use of a semi-auto, most (though not all) have mag-capacity limits. So the ability to use 5-rd en bloc clips, like the stripper clips used to feed a bolt gun's 5-rd internal ('box') magazine - which is what most of Cooper's early Scout variants were - keeps the weapon legal in the boonies.

[PlatinumCore16]

I have the generation prior to this one and, my opinion, I don't like the stock. They went for too much fancy and I like the cheek riser being easily adjustable without taking the stock apart. Other than that, the open sights are well done, I feel confident out to 100yd and could probably go farther with practice. It's light, handy, everything I want in a multi-purpose rifle. You'll love it, the new one's just not my cup o' tea.

[bamaranger]

I'd agree that the early Savage synthetic stocks, on the Scout, as well as on their sporters, were flimsy feeling and toyish. There are several examples online of folks adding fillers and such to the forends in attempts to stiffen same. I've thought about it on my early side button magazine release version Savage Scout. As an aside, the current Hog Rifle stocks suffer the same shortcoming. If you add a filler, and any sort of stiffener, you add weight......which works against the lightweight concept of the scout. I've left the internals of the stock on mine alone.

One addition to the Savage rifles that is an easy mod and helps with the toyish feeling, is the addition of a metal trigger guard as opposed to the plastic factory item. I bought mine from Midway, I think, and the addition of the metal trigger guard, to me, makes the rifle feel a bit more grown up.

I'd also agree that the factory sights on the early versions, while functional, are not especially durable. But I'd add, not any less durable than iron sights on most sporting rifles these days. What the early Savage scouts need are XS sights. Their dandy rear aperture and blade front. Easily done, but that is a costly upgrade that Savage would have had to add to their initial price. Using the Williams rear, the front bead already on hand no doubt and used on other rifles, kept costs down. If one wants to add the XS package, they can do it later. I can't tell what rear sight is on the later versions of the Savage scout. But it appears they do have a winged blade up front now. I've not upgraded my sights, but conceptually anyhow, would like the more rugged XS setup. But I'd likely never use them. What I need to do is get a backup scope and detachable rings, and pre sight the works.

Finally, Agtman, those scoped MiniG's of yours...........man they're neat.

[emcon5]

Not this crap again.

Hi. The 'Scout' concept was one of Jeff Cooper's more stupid ideas. He came up with it when no military anywhere would ever consider a bolt action rifle of any kind for anybody in the military except snipers.

It is not, nor was it ever intended to be a military rifle. It is a general purpose utility rifle.

Here are excerpts of the announcement and proceedings of the Scout Rifle conference in 1983:




People seem to get hung up on the name and assume it was intended for military scouts, but his writings on the subject never mentioned it as a combat weapon, that I saw anyway. It was mentioned that you could defend yourself with it if needed, but that is as far as I saw of "combat" use.

I believe Cooper named it that because it was something a scout could have carried back when there was such a thing, but he didn't seem to have any illusions about that. From the same time period as the conference:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Cooper in 1984

"Times have changed, and the true scout is no longer found in today's armies. The enemy is located from the air, pinned by artillery , and then smashed by mechanized infantry and tanks. The scout's rifle has been replaced by the Sturmgewehr, and the character and qualities of the rifle for use by a lone rifleman have been all but forgotten."

[Don Fischer]

I don't like any of those rifle's, they are all ugly! Wh*ll about.at the anti's will at some point raise hat make's it a scout rifle, where did the name come from? Look's to my like we are simply opening another door for some type a military rifle the anti's will raise h*ll about.

Obviously a short barrel gun but look's military clear through! I had something I think might have been similar year's ago that did not resemble a military rifle at all. Mod 660 Rem. Short barrel, short action and pretty ugly stock. If they made that rifle again with a nicer looking wood stock, I would buy it! For today, I think in a 260/6.5 CM, 7mm08 or 308 it would be very nice. Then if you really need that potato hanging off the end of the barrel, after market!

[agtman]

Finally, Agtman, those scoped MiniG's of yours...........man they're neat.

Thanks, 'Bama!

The '06 Mini-G 'hunter' is still something of a work-in-progress, but we'll see how it goes. Trying to develop a 200gn and 220gn hog and black bear load @ about 2400-2500fps, using Schuster's adjustable plug to dail them in.

The heavy factory '06 stuff actually shoots pretty well, like Remy's 220gn Core-Lokt & Federal's 220gn Speer Hot-Cor SP.

[agtman]

I don't like any of those rifle's, they are all ugly! Wh*ll about.at the anti's will at some point raise hat make's it a scout rifle, where did the name come from? Look's to my like we are simply opening another door for some type a military rifle the anti's will raise h*ll about.

Dude, unless that was sarcasm you really might want to hit the Decaf button on your morning coffee before posting. Just sayin'

[emcon5]

Sounds like he is talking about the old Remington 600/660 carbines, which in the late 60s became the prototype for Cooper's Scout rifle.

Here is an article written by cooper on 1966 on carbines, where he talks about the model, among others, before the "Scout rifle" was a thing.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/historica...ne-compromise/

[emcon5]

More info on the actual goal of the Scout Rifle, excerpted from the 1984 Gun Digest annual:



A practical, general purpose rifle.

[agtman]

Sounds like he is talking about the old Remington 600/660 carbines, which in the late 60s became the prototype for Cooper's Scout rifle.
Here is an article written by cooper on 1966 on carbines, where he talks about the model, among others, before the "Scout rifle" was a thing.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/historica...ne-compromise/

Okay, thanks for clarifying his comment and posting that link. Now I do recall that Cooper article. It was also reprinted somewhere else later on, as I recall.