Thoughts on a local robbery.

[In The Ten Ring]

I stopped by a favorite gas station last night and during conversation with the clerk she stated she was robbed last month. I was a little bit surprised and asked her to elaborate. She did.

The man came in alone, no mask, acting normal. He picked out two food items and came to the counter. After the ring up he calmly said, "all the money in the drawer please." The clerk thought he was "flirting" (her word). He assured her he was not and pulled out the handle to a knife up his sleeve.

The clerk stated she had a ".40 pistol" at the other register but felt she wasn't directly threatened and chose to comply. He left with the money but was arrested a few weeks later.

I didn't get much time to chat with her as another patron come in so I left with "look, you weren't hurt and kept your job, a win-win."

She did say something rather disturbing though. At one point she added "he didn't have the knife to my throat so I didn't feel threatened." I wanted to say "if you, being armed, let it go so far that he had a knife to your throat, you made some very serious mistakes" but the patron walked in just then.

Thoughts? Comments?

[jmhyer]

Her statement probably was intended to be somewhat humorous/sarcastic. Surely, she wouldn't wait for the knife to be at her throat before defending herself.

Having said that, I think she did the right thing under the circumstances. From the other side of the counter, with the knife up his sleeve, he posed little immediate threat. Give him the money and he will likely be on his way. Let the police handle it from there.

[T. O'Heir]

"...I didn't feel threatened..." Says it all. Shooting somebody isn't something one gets past easily either.
And she wasn't exactly armed just because there was a firearm in the building. "A ".40 pistol" at the other register " doesn't do much good. No way of knowing if she has any training or skill with the thing either.

[K_Mac]

Once in the clutches of an attacker with a knife at your throat, without good skills and physical conditioning and a little luck you're in real trouble.

It sounds like this woman made an accurate assessment of the situation and responded wisely. As already mentioned, we do not know her skills or commitment to using lethal force. I hope she is trained to use the ".40 pistol" and committed to using it if a knife wielding robber forces the issue.

[Onward Allusion]

Lot's of paperwork when having to shoot someone. However, I'm pretty sure the lady would have drawn, even if it were to tell the guy to GTFO, if she was actually wearing her gun.

[James K]

I hope no one really thinks a shooting or killing, even in what we might see as a self-defense situation, involves nothing more than "lots of paperwork." Believe me, there is a lot more to it, including the very real possibility that circumstances or an overzealous prosecutor may lead to conviction on a murder charge.

Jim

[K_Mac]

Lot's of paperwork when having to shoot someone. However, I'm pretty sure the lady would have drawn, even if it were to tell the guy to GTFO, if she was actually wearing her gun.

You may be right, but drawing a gun under the circumstances to protect a few dollars in the register(s) would have made a bad situation more dangerous. Was the knife the only weapon carried by the robber? Was he acting alone? I agree that having the pistol on her is a far better plan, but I agree with her response either way.

[Lohman446]

Tactically it is likely one can draw, with a counter between them, and present force before an attacker can get over that counter and threaten with a knife - especially one that is "hidden."

I assure you the store would prefer you give up the small mount of insured cash in the drawer. It is cheaper then the likely lawsuits should you use deadly force to protect that cash. My firearm is holstered on my hip and should someone with a weapon demand the small amount of cash in the drawer it is highly likely they are going to get it and I will let the police and cameras handle the rest. Make a movement to come over that counter and remove my "passive" defense and things will escalate quickly.

The counter did its job. It protected the employee. The cameras (presumably) and the police did their job and apprehended the suspect. No loss of life and a chance for restitution to the business as well as reformation of the suspect. I don't see how there could be a better outcome of a bad situation.

[doofus47]

Perhaps the standard procedure at that station is to give money rather than resist unless you feel personally threatened.

[briandg]

if this is all straight, she didn't do anything wrong. that doesn't mean that she did great, it means that she didn't screw up.

your report of her statement makes me think that she hasn't got any clue about armed defense of her own life.

the thing that she did, handing over the money was the right thing. it shut down the incident, it could have gone differently, I hope that she learns from it.

[FireForged]

I would say that everyone qualifies danger in different ways and each person has a different filter regarding [when] they will fight and what they are actually willing to do. I say don't worry so much about the personal sensibilities of strangers. It doesn't really matter what we think about this clerk. What matters is how the clerk feels about herself within her own universe. If she is good with it, I am good with it.

[TXAZ]

Originally Posted by James K

... Believe me, there is a lot more to it, including the very real possibility that circumstances or an overzealous prosecutor may lead to conviction on a murder charge.

Jim

If your in Austin Texas, it’s a certainty.

[K_Mac]

the thing that she did, handing over the money was the right thing. it shut down the incident, it could have gone differently, I hope that she learns from it.

I'm interested in what you believe she should learn from this incident. I believe she should have had a firearm on her instead of stashed where it may not be immediately assessable. It sounds like she kept her composure and didn't panic, which is not a universal reaction.

[OldMarksman]

I hope no one really thinks a shooting or killing, even in what we might see as a self-defense situation, involves nothing more than "lots of paperwork."

ABSOLUTELY!

[Irondog54]

People are not well versed in defense of self, or what constitutes a threat. If the robber said , "You're cute, get in the car." where would she have been?

[Lohman446]

If the robber said , "You're cute, get in the car." where would she have been?

Are you equating robbery to kidnapping?

[Ricklin]

You can play what if all day, it adds nothing to the discussion with the exception of more "what if"
This one ended well for all concerned. That's a real good thing. Good gal goes home, bad guy goes to jail.
The money? The juice is not worth the squeeze.

[briandg]

Not worth the squeeze?

$100-300? Not even worth eating a sunflower seed.

Armed robbers are caught here. Burglary, theft, not so often. In the last few years, a few of the robbers fired random shots. Maybe a continuing trend? Robbery is a lot riskier than stealing from homes; some bozos stole air conditioners from work sites for a while. Not everyone has the resources to make a living selling stolen refrigerators.

It's really, really stupid to use a gun in a robbery, that raises the bar.

Co-operation is the best thing. There are security cameras, and I believe that the usual armed robber wants the money and no trouble. Protecting someone else's money at any risk for yourself is a bad idea.

It eventually comes back to why do people risk jail, prison, or even death to hold up a gas station? Like he said, the juice ain't worth the squeeze, whether it's stealing it by force, or defending it. Who could afford to be canned because the robbery was resisted?

[briandg]

A number of the local police departments put notices online about robberies with security photos. Some of them are caught. How common is that?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The motivation for the crime isn't really relevant. Poverty, drugs, - let's not go there. It seems this worked out well and isn't that all that needs to be said.

[In The Ten Ring]

I've been rather intrigued by most of these replies and I have to admit these weren't the replies I was expecting. That's fine, I post because I want discussion.....this isn't Facebook where we just delete replies we don't like then unfriend and block everyone that made those.

I also guess by now it's safe for me to comment on this myself.....often when I add to threads I have started it tends to kill the thread but maybe it'll spark more discussion.

Had that been me, I know my response would have been different, but I've carried a gun for almost half my life now and I've worked a few "stop and rob" jobs....the last stop and rob I worked at I developed a mental set of "rules of engagement" so I wouldn't have to figure it out when there wasn't time to do so. My rules covered this robbery here.

Robbery attempt with knife: I'd step back from counter, level primary .38 at chest, demand knife to be dropped, hands on head, face down on floor, etc. while I called police. It'd be nice to hold the bad guy for police to arrive but if he decided to run I wouldn't try to stop him. A knife is a lethal force threat since it can kill or maim for life.

Whether or not the guy is fired upon is completely up to him. If he jumped the counter, tried to throw the knife at me, or pulled a gun, it's a guarantee he would be shot. If he just stood there we would be at an impasse but it's one I am happy with...as my weak hand is my phone hand.

It helps that I live in both a Stand Your Ground state and a locale that is unfriendly to criminals. As for getting a new job, that's fine, as I can get a new job quicker than I can get a new body. If the company really cared about me (or her in this case) they'd provide her with armed security. They don't care about her life though and I believe the owner of that store carries a gun herself as I met her once and we had a chat about crime.

"But you shouldn't defend someone else's money!" I would not be defending anyone's money.....the knife threat was against the clerk's life, not the cash register.

***

Now all of these replies has made me think more on this and since the knife isn't drawn pepper spray to face might be an option but pepper spray is going to force me out of the store also while he is still armed and he may not be affected by the pepper spray. Local police doctrine for lethal force threats is a pistol, not pepper spray. And yes, I carry pepper spray as it "varies my response options" and it does figure into those rules I mentioned above.

OK, so where am I going wrong? *See, trying to keep this going.

[K_Mac]

Drawing your gun in this situation would have accomplished what?

[In The Ten Ring]

Oh, I don't know, maybe kept me from getting stabbed.

[K_Mac]

Yet, just handing over the cash accomplished the same thing.

[Lohman446]

Oh, I don't know, maybe kept me from getting stabbed

Every gas station I have been in lately has a tall enough counter that getting over it (or around it at the ends) is not an instant thing. The clerk handed over the money and the threat ended.

Handing over the money does not preclude taking further defensive action should the threat continue. I'm sorry but if I can hand over the money, take a couple steps back from the counter, and have the threat end without having to escalate violence its a win for all involved. Let those trained, prepared, and using the advantage of numbers handle the violence if needed at a later time on grounds of their choosing to deal with the robbery.

For the record this is not new. Even Wells Fargo in the "wild" west encouraged its agents to hand over the funds if robbed. It allowed the company to move appropriate resources into the area to deal with the threat.

There is a lesson here. A gun is not a hammer and every problem faced while armed is not a nail. Yes a knife is lethal force but complying with the demands, especially when there is a counter between you and the aggressor, is by far the most likely way for everyone involved to escape without injury.

Robbery attempt with knife: I'd step back from counter, level primary .38 at chest, demand knife to be dropped, hands on head, face down on floor, etc. while I called police. It'd be nice to hold the bad guy for police to arrive but if he decided to run I wouldn't try to stop him. A knife is a lethal force threat since it can kill or maim for life.

I understand the story as told by the clerk, probably with a bit of tunnel vision, holds the man with the knife was alone. What if he wasn't? What if he was the "point guy" and had "back-up" either in the store or watching through the window. I know that we think we are always going to surprise an individual by pulling our gun and instantly command the situation. In reality we have escalated it and the response may be an escalation we did not count on.

To be critical of the clerk to a degree is one thing. What if things had escalated and she had not been able to get to the gun when she needed it. But to critique, in this case, compliance when it created a desirable outcome seems to be to take all the advantages of 20/20 hindsight and ignore them.

The whole premise "it would have prevented me from being stabbed" ignores the fact that the clerk WAS NOT STABBED and indeed no-one suffered life changing injuries. What different outcome are you hoping for?