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Old May 25, 2018, 05:16 PM   #126
L2R
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Too much emphasis is being put on the caliber.
The users ability to shoot accurately is much more important.
(I will take a 5.56 to the foot as opposed to a 38 to my head)

A little research on carbines will show that a 45 acp can generate energy in the 44 magnum range and a 9mm in the 357 magnum range.

https://ballisticsbytheinch.wordpres.../buffalo-bore/

I took the wife to the range. A pistol, shotgun and carbine

Under stress, the pistol was a miss most of the time at 20 feet
The shotgun well, she would not pick it up a second time
and the carbine hit the target most every time, I think 8 of 10 if I remember correctly

We live in a fairly large home, we are not the police so we don't need to clear a home.
So a suppressed CX4 seemed like a good answer.
Ambidextrious, reliable and plenty of room for light, laser or whatever you might want.
If something bizarre took place, I can locate at 50 yards although that would clearly have to be a defensive stance.


Picking up what you can safely handle in the dark and half asleep probably is your best choice regardless of the caliber or type weapon.
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Old May 27, 2018, 06:58 PM   #127
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Tests have shown that anything you load into a shotgun that reduces the wall penetration, basically eliminates about all of the lethality. #4 buck goes through walls almost as well as 00 and is considered the bare minimum shot size to be effective.
I've seen a YouTube video by Paul Harrell which covers this area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiHHgjaR0TI

A shotgun fired with 00 Buckshot goes through 2 interior walls and 1 exterior wall. When fired with #4 Buckshot, it goes through 2 interior walls but is stopped by the exterior wall.

An AR-15 goes through 2 interior walls and 1 exterior wall.

I think one of the takeaways is that both the AR-15 and Shotgun will go through a number of house walls. Even if you could show, for the sake of argument, that an AR-15 will go through 5 interior walls and the Shotgun will go through 7 interior walls, for example, will that really matter in terms of over penetration and your (or someone else's) loved ones. Possibly but I wouldn't want to take those odds to Vegas.
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Old May 27, 2018, 07:12 PM   #128
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An AR-15 goes through 2 interior walls and 1 exterior wall.
An AR15 is a rifle. What was the AR15 loaded with?

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; May 27, 2018 at 07:18 PM.
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Old May 27, 2018, 08:04 PM   #129
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Bullet weight and type matter in this kind of thing.

55gr and 60gr vmax behave similarly to the 40gr in the link above.

60gr from a 16in barrel gives decent penetration, between 10 and 12in in the test I seen, and the wound cavity is pretty large.

Good penetration is best, but at least 223 has enough energy to actually cause cavitation and shock damage to tissues not in the direct path of the bullet fragments, which helps.

And penetration matters quite a lot for those living in apartments, and townhomes.

Last edited by marine6680; May 27, 2018 at 09:23 PM.
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Old May 27, 2018, 09:06 PM   #130
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If all I had was a 5.56, I'd sell it and get a better cartridge. Problem with 5.56 with military ball is over penetration! Perhaps loads could be developed that would not exit. I doubet my 243 would, I use 75 gr V-Max's in it and they blow up on an inch and a hale foam backer and paper target at 200 yds. The one thing it seem's is never considered about home protection is over penetration! Shoot through the bad guy and bullet leaves him and goes through a light spot in the wall and get's the mail man, your gonna have a problem. Rightfully so!
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Old May 27, 2018, 09:24 PM   #131
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Somebody didn't read the thread... Lol
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Old May 27, 2018, 09:47 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Don Fischer
The one thing it seem's is never considered about home protection is over penetration! Shoot through the bad guy and bullet leaves him and goes through a light spot in the wall and get's the mail man, your gonna have a problem. Rightfully so!
Good grief! Read at least some of the thread before you post nonsense like this; nonsense that’s already been debunked pages ago. In fact, I pointed out the penetration issue in the second post, so apparently you didn’t even read that far.
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Old May 28, 2018, 08:43 AM   #133
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A rifle is always gonna beat a handgun as a defensive tool in the power and accuracy areas. It isn't always best in some other areas. It's loud, it's heavier and longer than a handgun. As for penetration, I suspect it'll be more powerful than My .38 with 125 hollow points. I have no way to test this. A .223 with a varmint bullet should never go thru but.................................................I have shot thru 1/2" cold rolled steel with a .243 with 70 gr hollow point varmint bullets.
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Old May 29, 2018, 07:30 AM   #134
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Bullet weight and type matter in this kind of thing.
Absolutely as does how a particular test for penetration is performed. I recall seeing a video where someone was comparing low penetrating .223 ammunition to 12 Gauge 00 buckshot. There is nothing wrong with doing a comparison like this, so long as its not being done in a way to suggest one platform over another. Also, I think cost and availability of ammunition is a factor. If the best ammunition for situation "x" costs too much and/or is hard to get, then not a lot of people will be using it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by marine6680 View Post
And penetration matters quite a lot for those living in apartments, and townhomes.
I agree. My point was that whatever firearm you need to stop a threat can also potentially shoot through several walls of a house/apartment.
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Old May 29, 2018, 01:45 PM   #135
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If the best ammunition for situation "x" costs too much and/or is hard to get, then not a lot of people will be using it.

This is the biggest problem with recommending the .223/5.56mm for home defense. A lot of people aren't going to hear ".223 with the right ammo doesn't overpenetrate" they're just going to hear ".223 doesn't overpenetrate" and they aren't going to spend the money for varmint bullets or "self defense" rounds, they're going to buy the cheapest thing on the shelf (55gr FMJ) and think the issue is settled.

With the right bullet .223 doesn't penetrate too much, with the wrong bullet its just as bad (and maybe worse) than pistol and shotguns.
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Old May 29, 2018, 02:54 PM   #136
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I have edged away from 5.56 and more in to .300 BO for interior defense as it is easier to suppress and the ammo choices make more sense for interior defense. With that I can switch magazines and suddenly have a good round for exterior defense if it turns in to that.

OTOH I have no problems 5.56. 5.56 is not an issue going through the walls of my home as my closest neighbors are 300 yards away. The odds of a stray bullet going through the walls of my home and hitting a neighbors house or even a neighbor are well in to the lottery big game prize/ getting struck by a meteorite levels. The Mail man should be good too, the mailbox is also 300 yards away and through a thicket of trees. Now that I think about it my closest neighbor IS the mail man. Know what he uses for HD? An AR15 in 5.56 loaded with green tip. Guess who is not worried about it? Me.

Why the AR?
- Training & Familiarity
- Stopping power
- Capacity
- Rate of Effective Fire
- Ease of setup in to a good HD platform properly equipped with a weapon light, suppressor and spare magazine.

The same reasons that they are so popular for so many roles.

Kibitzing about features you may not need like high capacity sounds like an idiotic gun control argument. After all you may never need your gun. And if you do? Why should you want what is most effective anyway? Therefore you don't really need it.

We can blame the Federal Government for popularizing the AR15. 50 years as the military issue weapon over time made it the police go-to weapon. Tens of millions of people have served as military and police and now the gun is as familiar to folks as say the 1903 Springfield was to the WWI Generation.
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Old May 29, 2018, 07:55 PM   #137
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We can blame the Federal Government for popularizing the AR15.
Absolutely!! It got really popular after they tried to BAN it!!!
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Old May 29, 2018, 08:32 PM   #138
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Funny, it’s been a while since the millions of “noobs” went out and bought themselves one of them there new fangled AR15s with the the explosive military bullet clips and no mayhem has ensued...

Now back to the topic:
The US Military is (or at least was) the premier war machine in the world. We have a couple of centuries of experience under a mostly continuous government. Killing and war fighting has been studied, documented, weighed and measured. Every nut, bolt, paper clip and container of general purpose cleaner is there for a reason. The reason those items are used is because they serve a purpose to a reasonably acceptable standard in the most economic way. There’s always a better product, but you give up low cost or other benefit.

We have the military that is basically the best and most experienced. Everything in our military’s inventory does its job as good as it can, at the price we paid.

We are in a state of perpetual warfare, generations of war has brought us to a place to where we use the 5.56mm. We have been using it since before I was born. Before the adoption of the 5.56mm it seemed like we were changing rifles and calibers like underwear.

Since the US military has kept the same caliber for so long, that tells me that something, better that has more to offer, without giving up economy hasn’t came along yet; economy of money, economy of logistics and the economy of the individual soldiers’ load.
I was in long enough to know that if something comes along that’s measurably better than a current item, change will happen. If something fails to perform it will get replaced. If it performs as it should, the military will keep it.

We still have the 5.56, the government is not nefariously keeping troops from the best weapon. War is America’s business, we aren’t going to let a substandard rifle cartridge stay if it’s not working.

It’s not the wonder cartridge, but it does the job acceptably for a lightweight, low cost bullet that soldiers can carry more of. If just a bigger bullet mattered, all the soldiers would carry elephant guns... just not as many cartridges.
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Old May 30, 2018, 12:02 AM   #139
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The military selected the 5.56 for a number of reasons, many of which relate strictly to formalized combat, not self defense. Two points in particular. The average # of rounds fired vs. KIA enemy is something North of 2,000:1. It's basic fire-and-manuever suppressive fire. The second is 5.56 weighs a lot less than a .30 round. Makes life a lot easier for the grunt that has to haul all of that on his back for miles. They're really not going for one-shot one-kill.

All of this is moot though. It doesn't have a lot to do with home defense. A gun is a tool, pick the right one for the use. You can drive nails with a wrench (I've done it), but it's a lot easier when you use a hammer.

I have an AR. It sits empty in a locked cabinet. A glock 19, with light, is on the nightstand. Why? The AR is difficult to handle in tight corners, the extra length makes it possible for an attacker to grab it, and virtually all self-defense shootings occur at distances of less than 20 feet. To me, that's pistol range.
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Old May 30, 2018, 12:29 AM   #140
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One could just do best of both worlds, one could just get a five-seven. Little rifle like cartridge in a handgun.
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Old May 30, 2018, 09:01 AM   #141
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More talk about the military than home defense, seems like. And six pages is more than enough in the way of ideas for somebody to make a decision.
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