|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
January 5, 2020, 08:25 PM | #1 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
95% of Red Flag Petitions in CO Approved
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wh...own-allegedly/
Well, nothing says “due process” like 95% of petitions being approved... and to be fair, Colorado offers many protections that the other 17 states with red flag laws do not. |
January 5, 2020, 10:07 PM | #2 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,462
|
Quote:
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic |
|
January 5, 2020, 10:28 PM | #3 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
The above link reflects that 95% of orders sought by police will be granted. From there, you get whatever “due process” your state offers.
Colorado does go the extra mile by offering a court-appointed lawyer - the only one of 17 red flag states to do so. However, Colorado also allows “anyone related to the respondent by blood, marriage, or adoption; anyone who has produced a child with the respondent; and current or former spouses, domestic partners, girlfriends, boyfriends, and housemates.” to file red flag petition, ehich is also very broad. |
January 6, 2020, 12:17 AM | #4 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,462
|
Quote:
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic |
|
January 6, 2020, 12:55 AM | #5 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
You’ve said a mouthful there. Years ago, I attended a Firearms Law CLE that included Glenn Meyer, JohnKSa, and Massad Ayoob. During that meeting, I met a guy who had practiced criminal defense law for 10+ years. He told me the reason he was attending the CLE was because he’d never felt threatened practicing criminal defense in 10+ years; but in less than 3 years he had seen guns pointed at him twice in family law.
That can be a very volatile practice area. I’ve personally seen people falsely accuse the ex of child sexual abuse to gain an edge in scenarios where they didn’t even want custody of the children. With the current standards for red flag laws and the lifetime prohibition possibility, that is absolutely going to be used as leverage regardless of the truth. And so you need due process for the people accused. I don’t want to see bad people armed and committing crimes. Every uncaught El Paso shooter is just one more reason to punish me - the guy who could kill more people with a pen than I ever could with a rifle. And I’m the guy who all the current laws are directed at... why is that? |
January 6, 2020, 08:44 AM | #6 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,475
|
Quote:
?? Not sure of other places but it DOES go before a judge in CO, not just local law enforcement..More 'due process' than domestic abuse, IMHO. Quote:
__________________
PhormerPhantomPhlyer "Tools not Trophies” |
||
January 6, 2020, 08:56 AM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,451
|
Quote:
An arrest is an executive action, not a judicial determination that you've relinquished a right. Whether the process was adequate doesn't arise because there isn't any judicial process yet. Ex parte and due process are difficult concepts to reconcile which is part of the reason a civil TRO typically requires a bond in order to be effective. In a criminal process, a court is supposed to quickly arraign, i.e. determine whether the charges merit keeping the defendant or require a bond, but...and this is an important "but", the defendant is present for that.
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php |
|
January 6, 2020, 09:16 AM | #8 | ||
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,462
|
Quote:
Remember -- the right to keep and bear arms is [supposedly] guaranteed by the Constitution. So we have a situation with these laws under which people can be stripped of their Constitutional RKBA on the basis of an ex parte hearing, which they don't attend and probably don't even know about. THAT's why these laws are an affront to due process.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic |
||
January 6, 2020, 10:58 AM | #9 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,475
|
Quote:
Quote:
Not getting to argue(NOT an attorney) but the 2 'seem' quite similar..w/o the RFL 'victim' going to jail. Quote:
I understand the initial seizure but like domestic abuse and RFL, they both get their 'day in court'..AND if the person can't make bail, they might be in jail for quite a long time.... Quote:
Again, not looking to argue just this is interesting.
__________________
PhormerPhantomPhlyer "Tools not Trophies” Last edited by USNRet93; January 6, 2020 at 11:04 AM. |
||||
January 6, 2020, 11:07 AM | #10 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 3,112
|
The CO law went into effect on 1 January, 2020. The analysis of the law assumes that 95 percent of CO petitions will be approved.
Quote:
|
|
January 6, 2020, 11:21 AM | #11 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,451
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
That the executive in the form of state police have the power to detain and charge a person is a separate matter and can surely be abused. That doesn't transform their acts into an equivalent of a judicial process. On the contrary, judicial process is the remedy to those abuses, except in the early phase of an RFL process because it is ex parte.
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php |
||||||
January 6, 2020, 11:23 AM | #12 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,475
|
I gots another question, from this non-legal, layman.
Why couldn't the RFL mean the people on either side go to court FIRST, each represented with counsel, and then the judge says 'take 'em' or 'don't take 'em'. Kinda like a custody hearing?? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
PhormerPhantomPhlyer "Tools not Trophies” Last edited by USNRet93; January 6, 2020 at 11:29 AM. |
|||
January 6, 2020, 12:21 PM | #13 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,462
|
Quote:
Prior to the onset of these red flag laws, I think every state had provision in their statutes for protective orders to be issued. But certain advocates (of exactly what I'm not clear) started agitating that it was too difficult for women to obtain protective orders, and that not enough classes of people (like the pretty girl you said good morning to in Dunkin' Donuts 20 years ago, and haven't seen since) were eligible to seek protective orders. So they put their legislative heads together and somebody came up with the notion of these so-called "red flag" orders. And, to make it easier/faster to obtain the orders (and to seize the alleged abusers firearms), the legislators decided to make the initial hearings ex parte. That wasn't an oversight -- that was a deliberate action, aimed squarely at depriving the accused of evil GUNZ! (The fact that it also deprives the accused of a Constitutional right is viewed as secondary -- sort of "collateral damage" in the effort to protect women from MEN!)
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic |
|
January 6, 2020, 02:04 PM | #14 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,451
|
Quote:
That a person may not want either to happen doesn't make them the same thing. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
At the risk of looking beyond the specifics of a law, the animating message of RFL proponents is that some things are too important to be impeded by due process. If a 100 men lose their rights in hearings of which they aren't even notified and it saves a single life, that's great. I don't think that's great. Due process protects against real dangers.
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php Last edited by zukiphile; January 6, 2020 at 02:25 PM. |
||||||
January 6, 2020, 03:19 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 5,312
|
Red Flag Laws---to make this short and sweet:
1. You ransack the person's abode looking in every conceivable place a Ruger LCP could be stashed and confiscate the person's guns. (You figure out the man power to do a good job of this.) 2. You leave the person deemed to be A THREAT TO THEMSELVES OR OTHERS alone in their home with their pills, rope, knives, machetes, chainsaws, pressure cookers, trucks, cans of gasoline etc. What could possibly go wrong with this scenario? |
January 6, 2020, 05:19 PM | #16 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 3,112
|
Quote:
Oklahoma has one of the worst records in the US for violence against women: Quote:
The situation on Oklahoma is so critical that local, county, and state law enforcement agencies have teamed up with federal prosecutors in charging those who are subject to restraining orders and own firearms with federal offenses. |
||
January 7, 2020, 09:17 AM | #17 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,475
|
Quote:
__________________
PhormerPhantomPhlyer "Tools not Trophies” |
|
January 7, 2020, 09:32 AM | #18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,451
|
Quote:
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php |
|
January 7, 2020, 10:41 AM | #19 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,475
|
Quote:
-out
__________________
PhormerPhantomPhlyer "Tools not Trophies” |
|
|
|