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Old January 3, 2017, 10:02 PM   #1
ZVP
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Public cries for more cowboy movies, guns, and lore!

Being a "fan" of the old west and especally it's guns, I find myself living for more new info!
The race between 3 gun and CAS was won by 3 gun competitions and more rapid firing, high capacity guns. It seems since then we fans are just clawing our way along and watching old movies!
We need the studios and also the gun industry to get behind us and help generate new interests in the old west. Single action center fire,rimfire and cap and ball revolvers are very fun to shoot and enconomical since you don't pour 10 plus round mags downrange! The slow load, fire,and reload, just helps you appreciate your guns more!
Face it, there's nothing like the really plesant handling qualitys of a single action revolver! The big bore boom, Black Powder smokemandnlow recoil of a cap and ball revolver is but one of the joys.
All the manual functions allow for more "fun"? time!
How bout it, are we going to sit by idlely and let the old est fade into obscurity or will e demand more from this industry?
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Old January 3, 2017, 11:07 PM   #2
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Most people who do Cowboy Action Shooting (at least in my area) are old white men. I think that the demographic needs to change for the sport to be successful, those old men are dying off.

Look at what those guys grew up on: cowboy movies and especially TV shows from the '50 and '60s. Today's youth are not being exposed to "old west" media. Instead it's "tactical" guns in video games and movies. Not to say some aren't interested in cowboy guns, but I predict in another 20-30 years cowboy action shooting will be severely reduced or basically dead. Instead, 3-gunners and other tactical games will be as popular as ever. Young people nowadays do not care about history. They care about the future if anything.

Nothing wrong with that really. It's just the march of time. And I highly doubt the people on here are going to be able to bring the western genre back from the dead. Besides, such a history that you and other fans of "rootin' tootin' cowboy action shootin", the phony mid 20th century idealized reimagining of that time period, is a bastardized history indeed. I think it is a disservice to the true and authentic history of the "old west". The true history hasn't been known since much after that time, the myths and "lore" as you say have clouded it in nothing but fictitious and warped imaginings of things that never were and "heroes" that really weren't.

These are my personal thoughts and observations. I mean no trouble, but I don't see this culture perpetuating itself for too much longer. I like "old west" guns and I'm a young man, but I probably don't like them for the same reasons you do. I like them for the history... the real history, not the Cowboy Action and Roy Rogers (et. al.) history.

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Old January 4, 2017, 12:02 AM   #3
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I'm one of those that grew up with westerns on tv and it was a major let down when I started finding out the truth about the old west. Now I thrive on the real history of the guns and real life stories of outlaws and the Civil War. I still watch some old westerns and read a lot of paperback westerns. It's entertainment, nothing more and that's what Hollyweird intended it to be. If they made a movie about how it really was nobody would watch it. I do like when they get everything as historically correct as they can and they are a lot better now than they used to be but we'll never see the return of the western in the numbers it was in the 50's and 60's, nor even a third of it. No those days are gone. Taken over by high tech modern weapons. Another thing I miss seeing is movies and tv shows about WWII.
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Old January 4, 2017, 12:29 AM   #4
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Sorry, those days are gone...
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Old January 4, 2017, 04:47 AM   #5
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not so fast..

I see plenty of BP / CAS imagery in modern media, some of it very cutting-edge. Maybe you're not looking in the right places?

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Deadwood_-_Season_1
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Westworld_-_Season_1
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Django_Unchained
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/The_Hateful_Eight
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Assassinat...bert_Ford,_The
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Cowboys_%26_Aliens
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Jane_Got_a_Gun_(2016)

for the kids-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyCkhPTU13w
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Total_War:_Shogun_2
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Call_of_Ju...Bound_in_Blood


It may not be the dominant form of media as it once was, but pop culture isn't as simple as it used to be. Rapid communication, the very internet we're using right now, creates a massive amount of sub-genres and niche interests that grow like cultivated bacteria.

I'm no spring chicken, but I'm not too old.. ...yet. Keep the BP guns affordable and you should have a continued flow of fresh blood. The fact that these simpler machines are more economical than their cartridge counterparts will endear the hipster generation. You may never win over the jocks, but the frugal indie generation of hipsters and preppers will quickly recognize the benefits if educated. Hey, vinyl came back in a big way, didn't it? Who would've saw that coming.

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Old January 4, 2017, 08:35 AM   #6
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And don't forget Quigely Down Under and Unforgiven.

Wow. 1990 and 1992 for those. 26 and 24 years ago. Time has flown.

Steve
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Old January 4, 2017, 08:55 AM   #7
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The Western isn't completely gone in pop culture. One of the most popular games in the past 20 years was a game called Red Dead Redemption. It was fantastic (it was actually part of a duo that got me interested in the 'Old West,' the other being the 2010 Coen Bros. 'True Grit'), and made an absolute killing in sales, selling somewhere around 14 million copies worldwide. It was also critically acclaimed, receiving near perfect scores across the board.

It is, very much like TV Westerns of the 50's and 60's, rather historically inaccurate, but it was phenomenal. Also, the sequel to it is coming out in fall of this year, and I could not be more excited for it. Go check out the teaser trailer, it's beautiful looking.
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Old January 4, 2017, 09:01 AM   #8
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The Magnificent Seven. -- ah yes, can't wait to see it again.

.02. David.
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Old January 4, 2017, 09:26 AM   #9
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Quote:
Most people who do Cowboy Action Shooting (at least in my area) are old white men. I think that the demographic needs to change for the sport to be successful, those old men are dying off.................I predict in another 20-30 years cowboy action shooting will be severely reduced or basically dead.
Jeez. Thanks for such a cheerful outlook.
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Old January 4, 2017, 09:39 AM   #10
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If anyone hasn't seen the original "Unforgiven" with Burt Lancaster, Audrey Hepburn and Audie Murphy, you should. Also, it wasn't until a couple of months ago that I watched for the first time, "The Big Trail," which I believe was John Wayne's first big movie; probably the best wagon train movie ever filmed (1936), even if rather a bit melodramatic.

And a great man is credited with this quote,

"A nation with no regard to its past will have little future worth remembering."

He had a lot on his mind...
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Old January 4, 2017, 09:40 AM   #11
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Cowboy movies are still being made, but don't take up the quantity of production they once enjoyed in the '50s and '60s. Now, if you can get it into the gaming market, that will kindle an interest among the young.
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Old January 4, 2017, 10:03 AM   #12
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It would be interesting to know how many old west shooting irons are still being sold each year.
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Old January 4, 2017, 10:15 AM   #13
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The young-uns I know ignore the SA revolvers,,,

The young-uns I know ignore the SA revolvers,,,
I take college kids to the range quite often,,,
As a rule they all reach for semi-auto's.

I always take a DA/SA revolver (Model 18 in .22 LR),,,
As well as a very nice Taylor's & Co. Cattleman SAA clone in .22 LR.

Invariable the kids will look at them and shoot them if I urge them a bit,,,
But after a few cylinders they always gravitate back to the semi's.

Only one young lady out of several years preferred a SA revolver,,,
But that is probably because she is a true cowgirl,,,
She grew up in a ranch owning rodeo family.

I know someone is still buying them because there are still many on the market,,,
But for the most part I do believe they are approaching novelty status.

Aarond

BTW,,, I truly enjoyed the new version of The Magnificent Seven,,,
It had loads of unrealistic shooting,,,
But so did the original.

.
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Old January 4, 2017, 10:27 AM   #14
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The problem with cas vs 3 gun is cost. And I don't neccessarily mean that cowboy Guns are more expensive. Look at the massive demographic that has any shotgun, an ar that they can build relatively cheap and a semi auto. A lot of people that get inton Guns start generally with one of those 3 after a 22. In fact most people have those 3 before ever deciding to shoot games. Then if those same people want to shoot games, maybe they have all 3 or 1-2. It's a lot more affordable to pick up the one outlier vs wanting to shoot cowboy action and then having to buy 4 new guns, with maybe only 1 that they see a real use for.

I want to shoot both types. I personally have all the guns for 3 gun. I also have a ruger new vaquero.

I have to give a lot of respect to the cowboy action shooters. I do not know if they are all old white guys, but I went to a local match and they were locally but I wouldn't be so quick to judge. I couldn't believe the passion they all had and the willingness to share that passion with me. I did not know how these cowboy action events worked so I brought my single action and didn't know there werent any events that I could participate in with only 1 gun. One elder man who was from out of town picking up an old truck states away saw there was a local event and wanted to shoot on his way back home. He let me participate with all his gear, guns and ammo. I didn't even have any money to pay him back as I did not make much at the time. That event was probably the single most touching event for me and gave me my firm belief in the compassion and support throughout the firearms community.

Now saying all that, I would still have to purchase belt and holsters and those other guns. It is a big investment when some of those Guns are an offshoot of some people's perceived primary purposes.

What I think would really help the cowboy action shooting market would be for them to regularly run other simpler events. Things like a quick draw, long range rifle, even ride a stagecoach with a double barrel. I know they do have some of those events but the problem is with local ones, you need all to play, whereas you can shoot in a large number of other games at your local club with one gun of your 3 gun load out. I hope that makes sense.

If someone could go to a match with just 1 saa, or 1 sxs, or 1 leveraction they grew up with and could shoot in some event, then they would have more interest in slowly picking up the rest. Whereas now they go to hi-power rifle or pin league and sure they could start with their lever action or saa, and they might be competitive but they will see the other gear being used and since it's a competition they want to level the playing field and maybe upgrade from there.

Really to summarize, I think it is a disservice to the cowboy action shooting crowd for marketing when these simpler or single options aren't available. I haven't been back to one since I know the cost of admission and right now I can't afford it. Even though I would like to.
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Old January 4, 2017, 10:37 AM   #15
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Some clubs that hold regular matches, like steel challenge and silhouette, have gun categories for old west type shootin' irons.
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Old January 4, 2017, 12:40 PM   #16
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Truth be told, CAS did it to itself.askiing too much in respect to gear being perfectlly correct clothing period with unforgiving realism, and high tournament few ajnd club membership fees outside regular club membership costs.
The realism is great bu costs out of this world!
Yes todays guns cost less thanks to. Moden materials and production tooling costs.mbesides it' easier t shoot what you have in today's saga the Han buy period correct guns(high additional costs)"
Frankily it's always been cheaper to shoot current guns.
They must also allow for use of rimfire lookalikes. It's all about the fun of operating the guns,not just firing he calibers.
3 gun allows simple current clothing use.3 gun uses what you already have on hand.
Love of the old west comes from the heart not the wallet!

There wo'nt be a resurgance as we saw during the advent of CAS but I feel intrest I'll endure.
Thanks for the really great comments, folks!!!
Dave
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Old January 4, 2017, 12:52 PM   #17
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Quote:
Truth be told, CAS did it to itself.askiing too much in respect to gear being perfectlly correct clothing period with unforgiving realism
CAS is anything but that as far as guns are concerned.
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Old January 4, 2017, 01:53 PM   #18
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I live in the middle of Wyoming. Wyoming was one of the hot-spots for Cowboy Action Shooting about 10 years ago and going back maybe 20 years. Now it's all but dead around here.

Why?
The answer is multi-fold.
#1, it's expensive to get into, and I'd bet at least 80% of the regulars were retired or getting close to retirement. That means in the last 10-20 year many are too old to do it, or are sadly passed on. Guns are costly and the cost of the guns can be less then the cost of the costumes and the cost of the travel.
Young people can't afford it as a rule.

#2, it's "so safe" as to be insulting to the average intelligence. In the few I have been to, the way the guns have to be handled to be within their regulation are safe to a point of being ridiculous . I am a former US Marine and when I was in service, my last duty assignment was as NCO in charge of training in combatives, most focused on the 1911A1 pistol but also covering edged weapons and hand to hand. I believe I know what is safe and what is not when it comes to shooting. This should be viewed with the fact that my 1st love is flintlocks and old fashioned classic guns, so cowboy shooting, you would think, would be quite interesting to me. But it's not! I will explain why.

You can always get "safer"! Ask any anti-gun collage girl. Simply never allow a gun to be in the country with you ....right?

Well Cowboy shooting is not that bad, but they are way over the line, and when new shooters see 3 gun shooting, where people can use and carry their weapons loaded, are trained to do so safely, and the focus is about SAFE handling in shooting and movement, it's interesting.
When they see a Cowboy shoot where you can't holster or draw a loaded revolver, you need to load the unloaded shotgun first, or you can't move your feet much (or at all) in certain stages, every high-school kid will see it as too phony, and they gravitate toward action shooting.

In cowboy shooting, people are NOT trained to use their guns safely at all. They are constrained to a point that "training" is absent, and movements are so tightly controlled that there is ZERO realism to the shooting stages, but most of the focus is pushed toward the clothing anyway. But new shooters want to shoot first -------and dress 2nd.

Advocates of the Cowboy Shooting will tell us all that safety is most important, so they MUST set the rules that way.

But the action shooting sports seem to have as good a track record, and there are a LOT more action shooters to look at too, and still they are not shooting themselves or others with any alarming frequency.
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Old January 4, 2017, 02:09 PM   #19
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I understand there are other types of shooting but they aren't as common as local pin, silhouette, or high power matches.

And obviously the guns can be repro but you still have to shoot single actions or turn of the century double actions, lever or pump rifles, and either a sxs or hammered shotgun.

I love the period correct nostalgia. But like with other classes of handgun or rifle shooting their are limits on what you can use, they still have so many more open type matches. Obviously you can't open up cas to ar's and the like. But still if every cas shoot offered all types, you might get more turnout. I love it. I'm just rationalizing why it's not overly booming. I don't think it's going to go away but the rate of growth, if there is growth, will never keep up with 3 gun as it stands now. Simply having Quickdraw matches available everywhere with one gun would be awesome. At least a great way to try to get people into the sport. I know it happens, but it's not common. At least in my neck of the woods.
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Old January 4, 2017, 02:18 PM   #20
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Wyosmith,

I would have guessed that is was still big in Wyoming.

In the one I did, we were able to draw and move with loaded Guns. But I agree, that is what I was referring to with Quickdraw. Cheap, simple and in most other handgun and 3 gun games, people are trying to draw fast. Obviously it can be more dangerous without proper training but that goes with every gun game as well as even at the range. At least on the draw with a sa, you still have to cock it vs drawing with say a Glock and one in the chamber. And as far as hammer down on empty cylinder, I am fine with that, many people actually use old Guns.

There are ways of making cas more gravitating. The other games are doing it, if cas could play catch up, I think they could still pull it off. I think most gun people at heart love westerns, but it's not easy or simple to get into cas.
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Old January 4, 2017, 02:30 PM   #21
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I shoot N-SSA. I agree it is a sport of old, white men. I'm probably one of the 5 youngest there at 46. Most guys are 65+ and retired. A couple of women also shoot.

Cost and time is certainly a concern. Many of our competitions start on Friday afternoon with individual shooting at targets. While there is also individual shooting on Saturday morning, it is hard to do 4 guns in 4-5 hours, though it can be done especially if you do no re-entries. But Friday shooting makes it much more relaxed. That means vacation time.

Then there is the cost of competing. My ammo costs me about $.30 a shot. I make up 100 rounds per gun and shoot about 75% of it. So figure $100 in ammo for 4 guns. It's $25 a night for camping so that's another $50. About $60 in gas to drive the RV down and back. Say $50 in food. $25 for individual targets, and about $7 per team event so $28 to shoot 4 team events. Works out to about $340 for the weekend. Every other month of the year.

And this is just for a "daddy activity". When you have a wife and children, you have to start asking yourself (and your wife and kids will be asking themselves) whether this expense is really fair for just daddy to go have fun by himself for the weekend. Yeah, mom and the kids can come along "camping" but that really just means mommy babysitting in and around the RV while daddy is down at the range having fun. Contrast this with taking the family camping for a weekend or buying a boat and the family spending the weekend out on the lake boating and fishing together.

The middle class in this country is shrinking. People have less and less disposable income. 42% of the country makes $10/hour or less. 47% of people with an income don't make enough income to have to pay income tax on it. More and more young people are coming out of college with their "disposable" income being tied up in student loans.

It's getting harder to find young people with both the interest and the time and the money to participate.

Then there is the demographics problem. It has been said that if you look around any NRA convention and you will see a sea of white and grey hair. The torch of the second amendment is mostly born by older Americans. I did not vote for him, but I was surprised but pleased to see Trump win in that at least the 200 or so justices he has to appoint will probably be pro-2A, and so the second amendment may be protected for another generation. But I don't have much confidence in this to last indefinitely. My feeling is that the younger generation skews left on most social issues. And since the second amendment's champions are on the right, this does not bode well for what is going to happen as the baby boomers start dying off. My hope is that we make inroads with firearms and shooting sports with young left-leaning people. But I don't have a lot of confidence in that happening. I hope I'm wrong.

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Old January 4, 2017, 03:00 PM   #22
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I don't think the demographic is the main issue. I am young and know lots of young people. Maybe 50/50 fall pro 2A and the others opposed. I can also tell you that 99% of those buying Guns that I know are buying ccw, ar's, shotguns, double stack 9's, or bolt rifles. I can tell you that if those I talk to on a daily basis own 100 Guns. Maybe 5 of those, tops, could be used in cas. And I know of only 1 that is a saa. That is the issue. If you let any of those people compete in cas with 1 gun, then you may have more willing to compete. You can only realistically use any of those guns for hunting. I don't mean that as a slight. I can use my ccw for carry, idpa, 3 gun, pin league, etc. I can use my ar for HD, high power, 3 gun, carbine courses, etc. I can use a shotgun for HD, shotgun courses, hunting birds or deer, etc. Not that cas guns can't be used for that but they aren't as versatile.

Edit: Also more women are into guns than ever.

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Old January 4, 2017, 04:48 PM   #23
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I like Old West stuff; the guns and other trappings and the history, even a decent movie. However, some of the films are just too ridiculous for me. When I had the opportunity to see the videos of Quentin Tarantino's western films, I quickly realized that I had more important things to do. But he made money on them, and apparently, that's a lot more important than any resemblance of authenticity.
As far as the cowboy-shooting-games go, I only have outside opinions that certainly have very limited validity. I do think that a real 45 Colt from the old days launches a 250-255 grain bullet with a lot more power than the ammo they are using in their games, but I don't play and probably won't.

My only center-fire handgun is a 45 Colt Vaquero. I can't afford a lot of guns, so I only have what matters to me. I don't shoot at gun ranges. I shoot in the woods. Whenever I don't have to be elsewhere, I'm in the woods, on and off-trail; usually with a back-pack and fishing rod, often in designated wilderness, always backwoods, sometimes with a rifle, but the 45 Vaquero is my constant companion. For such purposes, there is no better handgun than a solid single-action revolver. My light target loads run 255 grain cast bullets at 850 fps, but my main woods-load runs the same bullet at 1075 fps.

If you want Old West lore with authenticity, you pretty much need to read it from reliable historical sources. The last film I saw of the Old West that had some authenticity to history, was The Revenant, although it too, diverged from some of the facts; still, it was worth watching. I enjoyed the Deadwood series enough to watch it twice; but you can't watch that one with young children.

I don't think the Western genre will go away, but it's past its heyday. For it to have a Rennaissance, I think it would need to focus on gripping, true tales, that are credible, and difficult to walk away from. The real Old West, still has a lot of stories that either haven't been told well, or haven't been told at all.
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Old January 4, 2017, 06:29 PM   #24
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If the old Wild West was presented as it really was, most folks wouldn't want any part of it, even in a movie.
The dirt, disease, bad food, hard scrabble life, and easy dying would hardly be attractive.
Civilization was a long time coming.
As Tom Horn sez, in the movie with Steve McQueen, the old west could be summed up with one phrase, "Raggedy-Arse."
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Old January 4, 2017, 07:36 PM   #25
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^ For those reasons exactly, I'd recommend anyone in this thread that hasn't seen Deadwood, make it a priority. As mention earlier by Pathfinder45, the language is quite explicit so it's not something you'd want to gather the kiddies around the TV to watch.

No buckets of blood and Tarantino Kung Fu physics.
Just sheer lawless terror.
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