Sign of the times? SD scenarios different today?

Playboypenguin · November 13, 2009, 03:58 PM

I would usually agree that a person will never be pulling a gun on anyone more than a couple yards from them (that is how I have always though and how I have always trained), but in this day and age I start seeing it as more likely that a person might need to take down someone with a weapon from a greater distance. Such as if someone bursts into a mall or other public place shooting. You might not be right next to them when stopping them becomes necessary...and seconds could mean dozens of lives.

Some people might have different opinions though.

Do you feel this is something a person at a greater distance should even try? Should they just seek cover until threated personally? Should they get involved and if so do you feel it creates a need to carry the most accurate gun you can carry? Does it mean you need a more powerful gun? Does it change how you train?

44Magnum · November 13, 2009, 04:00 PM

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/T.../How.Close.htm

An attacker can cover several yards in the time it takes to draw and fire only one shot. I really can't give an honest answer to your questions since they are so dependent on the actual situation at hand and the weapon being carried.

Brian Pfleuger · November 13, 2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Do you feel this is something a person at a greater distance should even try? Should they just seek cover until threated personally? Should they get involved and if so do you feel it creates a need to carry the most accurate gun you can carry? Does it mean you need a more powerful gun? Does it change how you train?

A lot depends on whether or not you want to be a hero. (No negative connotations here.) Saving others lives at the risk of your own when there is otherwise no threat to you or yours is (one of) the definition of a hero. Some people might believe that you have a responsibility to help. To them, I say "Have at it." Anyone who holds that belief may need to consider what you've brought up here.

Me? Sorry, I'm not a hero. I've got a wife and kids to take care of, I made promises to them. If I can get them and me out of harms way then that's what I'm going to do. I'm not the guardian of the world.

#18indycolts · November 13, 2009, 04:27 PM

Unless my family's life or mine were in direct danger I would not engage.

Quote:

Me? Sorry, I'm not a hero. I've got a wife and kids to take care of, I made promises to them. If I can get them and me out of harms when then that's what I'm going to do. I'm not the guardian of the world.

well said

KingEdward · November 13, 2009, 04:47 PM

what's happened recently (and in the past) makes one think more
than a little.

In my humble opinion, if/when a shooting broke out (mall / food court / large groups of people) the chaos would make things difficult to assess what exactly to do (people screaming and running and piling up).

I agree with others that family is first and move them as far away as possible if possible.

If I were alone (shopping alone or eating alone) I would probably assess as best I could and if I was not shot or down and did have a good line of sight
and target id and no one was directly behind the threat, if my shooting the threat could slow down or end the killing spree, I would pull the trigger.

I would hope that there would be someone (maybe off duty LEO or armed security person) that would step in also. These things happen so fast that
I might be under a table just praying that it ends soon. I'm a fair shot but under that kind of stress, things become more than a little difficult.

jesus5150 · November 13, 2009, 05:17 PM

I'm single, No kids... No wife. If I feel i've got a shot and can save lives (Like example, your wife and kids who are shopping at the mall without you that day) I'll do it. Not that i'm a hero, I just like to think that if my future wife were at the mall without me and a shooting broke out, someone else who was able would have the guts to save her. Maybe i'm young dumb 23 year old but, I've got no dependents, and my soul is saved... so if i go down saving a mother and child, I'd be honored. But I'd sure like to avoid it lol.

And I practice shooting my USP out as far as I can just cause it's fun! So i'm aware of my skill and more importantly, my limits! So I'd have a more educated guess of my chances of hitting my intended target. So i'd say, Yes it's entirely possible you'll need to shoot longer distance to save a life. Why not practice it? Even if it's a 1,000,000,000:1 Why not practice it? Is it foolish to waste ammo practicing for something that PROBABLY won't happen? Or probably miss your target because you didn't waste ammo?

Buzzcook · November 13, 2009, 05:24 PM

Mall shootings and disgruntled employee scenarios are still extremely rare. I don't feel the need to plan for them.

Playboypenguin · November 13, 2009, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Mall shootings and disgruntled employee scenarios are still extremely rare. I don't feel the need to plan for them.

Statistically they are not much rarer than personal attack scenarios. Neither is likely to happen to you. Do you carry at all?

**Tom Servo** · November 13, 2009, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Do you feel this is something a person at a greater distance should even try? Should they just seek cover until threated personally?

I could easily imagine several scenarios in which I might need to take a shot at significant range.

Now, let's give a mall shooting as a hypothetical. If a guy's opening fire, and I have to consider taking cover at all, then I'm in danger.

If I can get out unscathed, should I do so, or should I take the shot? Is there a risk of getting shot in the back? Am I willing to stand by and watch other people die? Those are all individual decisions you'll have to make for yourself if the time comes. But being equipped and prepared to do so doesn't hurt. The skills involved will transfer to other self-defense confrontations.

Quote:

Should they get involved and if so do you feel it creates a need to carry the most accurate gun you can carry? Does it mean you need a more powerful gun? Does it change how you train?

You should always carry the most accurate gun you can. This goes to the heart of my argument against "good enough" mouse guns.

People will tell me that, because they can keep their shots on a 3x4' target at 7 feet with a .32 pocket pistol, they're "done." Somebody has told them that "most encounters occur at that range," and that's all they're prepared for.

Of course, in real life, the target is a very angry human being who's moving and attacking. Suddenly, those criteria aren't very reassuring.

There is no such thing as "done" when it comes to training for this sort of thing. The ability to hit a target at 25 yards may become a matter of life or death, or it may not.

However, I'm carrying a sidearm in case everything goes terribly wrong, and it doesn't hurt to be prepared for as many contingencies as possible.

bullspotter · November 13, 2009, 06:51 PM

Tough call, Depends really on whats going on, If someone just came in spraying lead all over, I would like to think i could call 911 on my cell explain whats going on, what im wearing and that im a ccw holder and going to try to take the shooter down, and do what i can to do so. This is only if the guy is blazing away at everyone, maybee he just wants to see a high body count, maybee time for the call maybe not, but if this guys just wiping people out, you bet ill try to take him down. Now if it just looks like armed robbery, id be less apt to start shooting, If i didnt feel harm was going to come to others in the area. I guess its hard for me to say what I would really do, never been in this situation, and hope i dont ever need to do anything of the such.

dabigguns357 · November 13, 2009, 07:28 PM

No way i'm giving up a new born,a 2 year,and an 11 year old along with a wife.In a mall setting or something similar,i'de likely get the family down and out of the way,while doing the same.Then i'de draw and hope he/she/they don't come and find me while i'm on the phone with 911.I'm not into self preservation but more like family preservation to which i would love to continue to be a major part of.Now if i should be staring at someone coming towards us while shooting up the place and they were close enough for me to make a shot from cover then i would hope to do the right thing.I do say hope because we don't know what we would unless faced with the situation.

Conn. Trooper · November 13, 2009, 07:46 PM

I watched an instructor at Blackwater dinging steel plates at 100 yards with a stock Glock 17. That being said, I have never tried shooting a handgun that far. We qualify with a string of fire at 25 yards. I don't see a torso shot at 50 yards being out of the question. I also carry a Sig 229 or a Glock 17, might not work so well with a LCP.

Brian Pfleuger · November 13, 2009, 07:54 PM

Quote:

I don't see a torso shot at 50 yards being out of the question.

50 yards should be, eh, "easy" for a trained shooter. "Easy" that is in the high stress world of having to take down highly dangerous paper targets. I can hit a torso sized target pretty easily at 50 yards with my G33 and I am for sure not a skilled shot with a handgun and the G33 is for sure not the most accurate gun in the world. Targets that shoot back.... well, that does add a few variables.

Conn. Trooper · November 13, 2009, 07:59 PM

Behind cover/concealment and a two hand hold, I would have no issues trying a long distance shot with a handgun. If I had to, I would rather use my M-4, but I don't usually carry that into the mall.

Kyo · November 13, 2009, 09:04 PM

i wouldn't take a shot at 50 yards. maybe not even 50 feet. at an area that has a large population like that, a miss, or even a hit can mean hurting someone else.
I don't really like doing the whole "hurt a few save many" thought process.
I guess you would train by shooting things at 25+ yards all the time until you get proficient. Then move around and do it. make your body shake and do it. jumping jacks, push ups, whatever it takes to make you shake so you can practice being steady

Dwight55 · November 13, 2009, 09:46 PM

While I am not the guardian of the world, . . . I am not a coward either.

A glassy eyed shooter with a handgun (especially a revolver), . . . sauntering down the mall, . . . randomly taking potshots left and right, . . . if I have good cover as I wait for him to get into my anticipated shooting zone, . . . I will probably engage him.

OTOH, . . . a shooter with a position on an upper mall floor, . . . shooting down onto the lower level, . . . with what I can ID as a high powered rifle (especially if it is an AK, AR, M1, or M1A, or similar civilian version of military firearms), . . . you can color me GONE when you get to my page in your coloring book, . . . I'm outa that place as fast as my arthritis will let me get out.

Yes, in both cases, I will do my best, first, to get my family/friends to safety first, . . . or cover their retreat if it is applicable, . . . that is my first duty.

There are too many variables to make a definite commitment, . . . but it certainly never hurts to know where your limits are on how far out you can honestly engage a target. My distance today, . . . not over 150 feet, and that would take a full upper torso being available as the target.

May God bless,
Dwight

Ricky · November 13, 2009, 09:46 PM

Sometimes being at a distance can get you more time. The target or shooter are far enough away that you can find time to find cover and a steady rest. I've found it to be true when hunting and I imagine it could be true in a shooter situation. If I can be behind cover and take a few shots from 50 yards or so I think I would try to stop the shooter. Easy for me to say, I'm in California where I'm more likely to win the lottery than get a carry permit.

**Tom Servo** · November 13, 2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:

50 yards should be, eh, "easy" for a trained shooter. "Easy" that is in the high stress world of having to take down highly dangerous paper targets.

Yes, but if you can confidently make 50-yard shots on the range, you're much more likely to make a shot under stress at close range.

There is no one guaranteed training method. The trick is to diversify.

Brian Pfleuger · November 13, 2009, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Yes, but if you can confidently make 50-yard shots on the range, you're much more likely to make a shot under stress at close range.

Maybe so, but I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Are you better off to be a mediocre shot that can handle the stress, or a great shot that can't handle the stress.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that FoF training is more valuable than range time, or even tactical training.

A semi-good shooter who can handle the stress of a violent encounter is going to be a semi-good shooter in that encounter. A great shooter who wets himself and can't remember which end of the gun is dangerous is going to have some trouble surviving.

Obviously, both would be better. Unfortunately, both costs money. ALOT of money. I think that there are a lot of people spending money on range time and "tactical" training that would be better off spending it on stress management and FoF exercises.

treg · November 13, 2009, 10:56 PM

Quote:

I've got a wife and kids to take care of, I made promises to them. If I can get them and me out of harms when then that's what I'm going to do.

And that would make you a hero.

FM12 · November 13, 2009, 11:52 PM

On a tangent (as usual) teach your family to always be aware of the nearest EXITS from malls, etc, in the event of fires, emergencies, etc. Have a plan to meet back at the car. Try to remember what colors you family members are wearing to be able to spot them easier at a distance. Even though my daughters are now 15 and 20, I still watch for them when we're out together. I get nervous when I cant see them.

XD Gunner · November 14, 2009, 01:06 AM

My responsibility lies with keeping my loved ones, and myself safe. If I perceive the best way to keep them safe is to shoot the BG, then I will shoot the BG, if I feel the best thing to do is flee, then I will flee.

This is with a grain of salt. I don't know what will happen, until it happens. I like to think I can be accurate enough to hit a BG at 50, or even 75 yards with my 1911 or XD45, because I can hit paper targets at 50 and 75 yards with them. However, paper doesn't shoot back.

I'm not superman, no one here is. No one should expect us to be either. Do what you can, when you can, to save you and yours, don't leave your children fatherless/motherless, and don't leave your significant other alone.

Playboypenguin · November 14, 2009, 01:10 AM

Quote:

I'm not superman, no one here is.

Ummm...you obviously did not notice my ring.

XD Gunner · November 14, 2009, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Ummm...you obviously did not notice my ring.

You have Hobbit Hands....

That ring is kevlar impregnated, 100% bullet-proof, with titanium shrouding, right? lol!

qwman68 · November 14, 2009, 05:01 AM

my luck i would pull my gun to help in a crazy shooter in the mall scenario and the police would shoot me 10 or 15 times when they got there..

November 13, 2009, 04:00 PM	#2
44Magnum Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Posts: 325	http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/T.../How.Close.htm An attacker can cover several yards in the time it takes to draw and fire only one shot. I really can't give an honest answer to your questions since they are so dependent on the actual situation at hand and the weapon being carried. __________________ "It'll all fit in there, it must be a compressed load." I never joined SAMMI.

November 13, 2009, 05:17 PM	#6
jesus5150 Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: Bismark Posts: 332	I'm single, No kids... No wife. If I feel i've got a shot and can save lives (Like example, your wife and kids who are shopping at the mall without you that day) I'll do it. Not that i'm a hero, I just like to think that if my future wife were at the mall without me and a shooting broke out, someone else who was able would have the guts to save her. Maybe i'm young dumb 23 year old but, I've got no dependents, and my soul is saved... so if i go down saving a mother and child, I'd be honored. But I'd sure like to avoid it lol. And I practice shooting my USP out as far as I can just cause it's fun! So i'm aware of my skill and more importantly, my limits! So I'd have a more educated guess of my chances of hitting my intended target. So i'd say, Yes it's entirely possible you'll need to shoot longer distance to save a life. Why not practice it? Even if it's a 1,000,000,000:1 Why not practice it? Is it foolish to waste ammo practicing for something that PROBABLY won't happen? Or probably miss your target because you didn't waste ammo? Last edited by jesus5150; November 13, 2009 at 05:25 PM.

November 13, 2009, 09:04 PM	#15
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	i wouldn't take a shot at 50 yards. maybe not even 50 feet. at an area that has a large population like that, a miss, or even a hit can mean hurting someone else. I don't really like doing the whole "hurt a few save many" thought process. I guess you would train by shooting things at 25+ yards all the time until you get proficient. Then move around and do it. make your body shake and do it. jumping jacks, push ups, whatever it takes to make you shake so you can practice being steady __________________ 1. The gun is *always* loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot. 4. Be be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

November 13, 2009, 09:46 PM	#16
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	While I am not the guardian of the world, . . . I am not a coward either. A glassy eyed shooter with a handgun (especially a revolver), . . . sauntering down the mall, . . . randomly taking potshots left and right, . . . if I have good cover as I wait for him to get into my anticipated shooting zone, . . . I will probably engage him. OTOH, . . . a shooter with a position on an upper mall floor, . . . shooting down onto the lower level, . . . with what I can ID as a high powered rifle (especially if it is an AK, AR, M1, or M1A, or similar civilian version of military firearms), . . . you can color me GONE when you get to my page in your coloring book, . . . I'm outa that place as fast as my arthritis will let me get out. Yes, in both cases, I will do my best, first, to get my family/friends to safety first, . . . or cover their retreat if it is applicable, . . . that is my first duty. There are too many variables to make a definite commitment, . . . but it certainly never hurts to know where your limits are on how far out you can honestly engage a target. My distance today, . . . not over 150 feet, and that would take a full upper torso being available as the target. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

November 13, 2009, 09:46 PM	#17
Ricky Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2008 Location: N.California Posts: 408	Distance can = time Sometimes being at a distance can get you more time. The target or shooter are far enough away that you can find time to find cover and a steady rest. I've found it to be true when hunting and I imagine it could be true in a shooter situation. If I can be behind cover and take a few shots from 50 yards or so I think I would try to stop the shooter. Easy for me to say, I'm in California where I'm more likely to win the lottery than get a carry permit.

November 13, 2009, 03:58 PM	#1
Playboypenguin Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 11,515	Sign of the times? SD scenarios different today? I would usually agree that a person will never be pulling a gun on anyone more than a couple yards from them (that is how I have always though and how I have always trained), but in this day and age I start seeing it as more likely that a person might need to take down someone with a weapon from a greater distance. Such as if someone bursts into a mall or other public place shooting. You might not be right next to them when stopping them becomes necessary...and seconds could mean dozens of lives. Some people might have different opinions though. Do you feel this is something a person at a greater distance should even try? Should they just seek cover until threated personally? Should they get involved and if so do you feel it creates a need to carry the most accurate gun you can carry? Does it mean you need a more powerful gun? Does it change how you train?

November 13, 2009, 04:47 PM	#5
KingEdward Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2009 Location: The Volunteer State Posts: 439	what's happened recently (and in the past) makes one think more than a little. In my humble opinion, if/when a shooting broke out (mall / food court / large groups of people) the chaos would make things difficult to assess what exactly to do (people screaming and running and piling up). I agree with others that family is first and move them as far away as possible if possible. If I were alone (shopping alone or eating alone) I would probably assess as best I could and if I was not shot or down and did have a good line of sight and target id and no one was directly behind the threat, if my shooting the threat could slow down or end the killing spree, I would pull the trigger. I would hope that there would be someone (maybe off duty LEO or armed security person) that would step in also. These things happen so fast that I might be under a table just praying that it ends soon. I'm a fair shot but under that kind of stress, things become more than a little difficult.

November 13, 2009, 05:24 PM	#7
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	Mall shootings and disgruntled employee scenarios are still extremely rare. I don't feel the need to plan for them.

November 13, 2009, 06:51 PM	#10
bullspotter Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 308	Tough call, Depends really on whats going on, If someone just came in spraying lead all over, I would like to think i could call 911 on my cell explain whats going on, what im wearing and that im a ccw holder and going to try to take the shooter down, and do what i can to do so. This is only if the guy is blazing away at everyone, maybee he just wants to see a high body count, maybee time for the call maybe not, but if this guys just wiping people out, you bet ill try to take him down. Now if it just looks like armed robbery, id be less apt to start shooting, If i didnt feel harm was going to come to others in the area. I guess its hard for me to say what I would really do, never been in this situation, and hope i dont ever need to do anything of the such.

November 13, 2009, 07:28 PM	#11
dabigguns357 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Location: Ona,West Virginia Posts: 1,215	No way i'm giving up a new born,a 2 year,and an 11 year old along with a wife.In a mall setting or something similar,i'de likely get the family down and out of the way,while doing the same.Then i'de draw and hope he/she/they don't come and find me while i'm on the phone with 911.I'm not into self preservation but more like family preservation to which i would love to continue to be a major part of.Now if i should be staring at someone coming towards us while shooting up the place and they were close enough for me to make a shot from cover then i would hope to do the right thing.I do say hope because we don't know what we would unless faced with the situation.

November 13, 2009, 07:46 PM	#12
Conn. Trooper Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 530	I watched an instructor at Blackwater dinging steel plates at 100 yards with a stock Glock 17. That being said, I have never tried shooting a handgun that far. We qualify with a string of fire at 25 yards. I don't see a torso shot at 50 yards being out of the question. I also carry a Sig 229 or a Glock 17, might not work so well with a LCP.

November 13, 2009, 07:59 PM	#14
Conn. Trooper Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 530	Behind cover/concealment and a two hand hold, I would have no issues trying a long distance shot with a handgun. If I had to, I would rather use my M-4, but I don't usually carry that into the mall.

November 13, 2009, 11:52 PM	#21
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	On a tangent (as usual) teach your family to always be aware of the nearest EXITS from malls, etc, in the event of fires, emergencies, etc. Have a plan to meet back at the car. Try to remember what colors you family members are wearing to be able to spot them easier at a distance. Even though my daughters are now 15 and 20, I still watch for them when we're out together. I get nervous when I cant see them.

November 14, 2009, 01:06 AM	#22
XD Gunner Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Location: Central Kentucky Posts: 636	My responsibility lies with keeping my loved ones, and myself safe. If I perceive the best way to keep them safe is to shoot the BG, then I will shoot the BG, if I feel the best thing to do is flee, then I will flee. This is with a grain of salt. I don't know what will happen, until it happens. I like to think I can be accurate enough to hit a BG at 50, or even 75 yards with my 1911 or XD45, because I can hit paper targets at 50 and 75 yards with them. However, paper doesn't shoot back. I'm not superman, no one here is. No one should expect us to be either. Do what you can, when you can, to save you and yours, don't leave your children fatherless/motherless, and don't leave your significant other alone. __________________ I've had 1911s and carry a mutant CCO-sized 1911-ish thing. -Jart If handguns cause crimes, mine's defective.- Eric Shelton

November 14, 2009, 05:01 AM	#25
qwman68 Junior member Join Date: May 10, 2009 Location: Crimson Tide Country Posts: 359	my luck i would pull my gun to help in a crazy shooter in the mall scenario and the police would shoot me 10 or 15 times when they got there..