2017; Any Police still carrying Revolvers?

[Model12Win]

ILLINOIS DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS still issues Smith 64s for prisoner tranport.

I saw some in use recently. They do not use them because "if you can't do it with six you can't do it at all" or any other dumb reason like that, they do it because they are poor and cannot afford proper handguns.

[JJ45]

Model12, what is a "proper handgun"?.... IMO, it's always the man behind the gun that decides the issue and not the weapon.

Anyone have a copy of Elmer Keith's "SIXGUNS" Read the chapter on Revolvers vs Autos... he makes some good points, of course, this was written before the advent of the "WonderNines" and polymers striker pistols .

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by Model12Win

they do it because they are poor and cannot afford proper handguns.

So, they can’t propose the state government to inquire from other agencies of a similar size to take their sidearms when they upgrade?

I’ve seen smaller departments do that multiple times, with guns, magazines, and holsters. One had Beretta 96s and S&W 6906s for years before the got the funds to buy new ones. Rebuild everything, and at least equip the entire agency with a lot less out of pocket. Then the governing body (state or county) adds a similar amount of funding to the new purchase that would cover what the old gear would have been surplused for.

Sorry, but there are ways around not having funds. They probably stick with them because they still have people in the higher ranks that feel it is a viable option, so why change? All it will take is seven inmates to overpower one officer... then you’ll see them switching to Glock or something similar.

[SA1911]

I ain't seen a cop carrying a revolver in nigh on 2 decades.

Why the heck would a cop carry a revolver? For law enforcement use, a revolver is a detriment, possibly a life-ending detriment.

I know of no CA law enforcement agency that allows its cops to carry revolvers. There might be one, but I'd doubt it.

Revolvers are less reliable than good quality semi-autos (revolvers have more moving parts), they hold only 6 rounds, they take too long to reload another 6 rounds, a cop has to take his eyes off a threat to reload a revolver, and God be with a cop who has to reload a revolver with a speed loader in darkness.

Comparing a revolver to a semi-auto is like comparing an ocean liner to a DC-8, which put passenger ships out of business.

I forgot that a cop has to do a hand transfer of a revolver in order to reload it with a speed loader.

[Model12Win]

Originally Posted by SA1911

I ain't seen a cop carrying a revolver in nigh on 2 decades.

Why the heck would a cop carry a revolver? For law enforcement use, a revolver is a detriment, possibly a life-ending detriment.

I know of no CA law enforcement agency that allows its cops to carry revolvers. There might be one, but I'd doubt it.

Revolvers are less reliable than good quality semi-autos (revolvers have more moving parts), they hold only 6 rounds, they take too long to reload another 6 rounds, a cop has to take his eyes off a threat to reload a revolver, and God be with a cop who has to reload a revolver with a speed loader in darkness.

Comparing a revolver to a semi-auto is like comparing an ocean liner to a DC-8, which put passenger ships out of business.

I agree. Sorry, lots of nostalgia and romance surrounding the revolver, but if I were a cop today I would be frankly very upset if they issued me a revolver.

If the (probably old) officer has used nothing but revolvers his whole career, then I guess I can see it but not for any new recruits. It doesn't take a genius to realize you are simply putting the officer at a huge disadvantage to anyone armed with a semi automatic. Semis have come so far that the old "six for sure instead of fifteen maybe" is just downright STUPID and bottom line up front, carrying a revolver as a law enforcement officer in this day and age is a horrible idea that could get the officer killed in a gun fight given the prevelance of Glocks etc. etc. on the street.

Cops are first responders to such crises as active shooters, murderers, bank robbers, etc. They run TOWARDS the gunfire, not away. They hold the lives of innocent people in their hands, your friends, family, coworkers.

Tell me this, do you REALLY WANT that officer with so much weight on his shoulders with such a dangerous job to do, to have a six-shot revolver with a slow and dexterity intensive reload to use to protect these people?

Leaving Barney Fife, John Wayne, and Clint Eastwood out of the equation of reality, I sure as hell don't.

[MTT TL]

Our state actually does not allow revolvers at the police academies. Any cadet that goes to the academy must have a semi-auto to qualify with (qualification is 50 rounds).

1911's are highly discouraged.

[JJ45]

What about the late Jim Cirillo of the NYPD Stakeout Unit?

20 gunfights, 11 perps kiled, although this is supposedly a conservative number since they didn't keep good records then as they would now, in over 250 stakeout encounters.

The handguns he carried into harms way were two S&W Model 10 .38s, a Colt Cobra and a Walther PPK .32ACP.

Of course he had access to shotguns and rifles (which they have today, also) but in most of the venues he was assigned, a long gun was not practical for obvious reasons.

[SonOfScubaDiver]

I agree that today's police officers need guns with more capacity than revolvers offer.

[Model12Win]

What about him? He worked mostly in the 70s.

40 years of Glocks, CZs, Berettas, semis have come a long way, and MANY have gotten into hands with ill intent.

[JJ45]

I agree with that... bad guys, nowadays, are just as likely to be armed with weapons the good guys have....

More relevant is the threat of terrorists armed with automatic weapons, grenades, RPGs, etc....I have good revolvers but if I had to go to the mattresses with just one handgun it would be my XD9 and as many 17 round mags as I could carry.

Sorry to get a slight bit off topic.

[SA1911]

JJ45,

What Jim Cirillo might have done in a long bygone era is totally and thoroughly inapplicable to the current era of law enforcement. In fact, if Cirillo carried a revolver and, if he had access to a good-quality semi such as a Sig and, if NYPD had approved semis and, if Cirillo chose a revolver of a Sig, I'm with Model12 Win: he was STUPID.

There is not a single advantage any excellent revolver has over any excellent semi. The opposite is not true.

I'm going with revolvers as no longer considered tactical weapons.

[Husqvarna]

hdwhit
Senior Member

Join Date: June 22, 2017
Posts: 456
I am aware of a handful of small municipal departments in rural areas of Texas and Arkansas that have reserve officers armed with revolvers, but other than that, like Screwball said, it's a semi-auto world.

please tell me that they are even carrying single action revolvers?

[shurshot]

I previously posted the comments below in another post, but decided to copy and paste it here in response to some of the anti revolver, pro semi pistol comments listed above. Just my opinion, based on my personal experience. Keep in mind that many retired and off duty LEO's carry revolvers like the S&W 642, 442, Ruger 101 snubnose .38 spl, .357 Mag, etc. not because they are forced to, but because they TRUST them more than a semiautomatic. Our decisions are not based upon video games or information gathered in chatrooms or from various bearded Youtube experts who all claim to be a ex "contractors", etc., but from experience we gained in real life. Carry what you will, but don't be so quick to judge others. Some of us have been carrying Revolvers before a few of you were even conceived and LONG before Al Gore invented the internet. As I stated, carry what you will, but don't be so quick to pass judgement.

"I am issued a 9mm SW MP and forced by policy to carry it on duty. Nice gun, accurate too. But, since my Department started using them well over a decade ago, well... lets just say there is a huge focus pertaining to trainings / "tap n' rack", in order to clear jams. Limp wristing, dirty ammo, magazine issues, weather, etc. have all resulted in an ongoing plethora of jams on the range. Seeing this and even experiencing it myself with the SW, and previously issued Beretta 96 have shaken my faith in semi autos. If allowed, I would qualify with and carry my own revolver, either a .44 mag or .357. This is strictly forbidden by Administration and I want my pension, so I follow orders and train with what I am issued. Don't get me wrong, the SW MP is a nice gun, but I just don't trust it or any semi automatic as much as I would a good revolver. I have seen other top brand semi auto pistols like Kimbers, Colts, Springfields and even Glocks jam on occassion over the years. I'm not knocking S&W or the others quality control, but the very finicky nature and reliability of the semi pistol design itself, at least compared to a well built revolver. I like semi pistols, I own several good ones ... some I even love to shoot (like my Beretta M9 and Sig 220), but I don't TRUST them, not 100% anyhow. Pistols are great for small game or tin cans, but for self defense, protection of life and limb, I want a Revolver!! Off duty, and free to carry what I damn well please, I now carry one of my revolvers and a few reloads, with additional ammo in my vehicle. Aside from reliability, Revolvers offer MAGNUM power, and in .357, .41 or .44 Magnum, there are few semi auto pistol rounds that can offer the same level of raw power. Revolvers can shoot low powered wadcutters or hopped up +P power hunting rounds, with ease. A semi cannot do that and function properly without changing springs. Revolvers are simple to operate, look nicer and although they can and do indeed get jammed (1 revolver jam in my life, a backed out ejector rod decades ago. Lock tite fixed that!), I believe jams are far less likely to happen with a well maintained quality brand revolver, than with a semi auto pistol, based upon how MANY semi automatic jams I have personally observed over the course of my 5 decades on this earth. I also feel the heavy, long double action pull on a revolver is SAFER than the hair trigger of a striker fired weapon. Accidental discharges with striker fired weapons happen and quite frequently if one is careless or gets clothing stuck in the triggerguard when reholstering. Ask the LAPD or search Youtube pertaining to striker fire accidental discharges. Another consideration; close quarter combat! Suppose during a self defense situation one finds oneself on the ground or otherwise being overpowered at close range by a vicious assailant(s) trained in MMA or armed with a knife? A semi pistol, if pressed up against a solid object, will have its slide pressed back out of battery, rendering the pistol inoperable and useless, except as a club. Not so with a six shooter (or 5, 7 or 8 shooter!). Something to consider, when one choses a sidearm to defend your life or that of a family member, as many altercations that cannot be avoided begin unexpectedly at VERY close range and end up on the ground. I know... I'm not very "tactical" by not picking a plastic framed, high capacity pistol with a rail / light and I may not win any Mall Ninja awards, but I'm comfortable with my off duty choice of carry".

[UncleEd]

What I like about LEOs having autos, particularly hi-cap autos, is that it allows them to spew many more rounds throughout the immediate area as they
have and will continue to do.

Or maybe for every hour they train with their autos, they also need at least fifteen minutes or ten minutes training for fire control.

[ftttu]

When I retired almost 2 years ago from my agency, there were probably less than a handful still carrying revolvers. Those dinosaurs started before me, and I thought they were dinosaurs back then. However, I heard they finally started retiring since then, but I don't know if they're all gone.

I never carried one on duty due to policy since I wasn't grandfathered in, but I could carry them off duty. I still could have carried them off duty up to my last day, but I stopped many years ago, instead choosing semi autos on and off duty.

[SA1911]

UncleEd,

Can you give me an example of cops, "...spew many more rounds..."?

Your opinion might be spew. Professionally trained cops will see it differently.

I don't give a darn how many rounds a cop or cops fire in a life threatening shootout. I hope they have enough ammo to stay alive. And that's the ONLY metric by which an officer involved shooting is assessed: did the cop(s) survive? If he/they did, it was a good shoot regardless of how many rounds he/they fired.

Cops go home to their families. Bad guys have a choice: jail or morgue. Smart bag guys will choose wisely.

[SA1911]

shurshot,

Do you really think one cop's opinion, assuming it's authentic, is definitive?

I've personally witnessed accidental discharges with revolvers. A few isolated incidents of accidental discharges does not impute negatively to all revolvers. It would be illogical to arrive at such a conclusion.

Ask yourself a very simple question: if revolvers are tactically superior to semis, why are cops carrying semis?

My Sig P229 .40 S&W is more reliable than any revolver I've had, carried, or have ever fired. I trust it more than ANY revolver, including uber expensive Korth.

In a late 90's article in the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, it indicated that it cost agencies a half mil to put one cop in service and off training. It has to be a mil now (inflation is an insidious, hidden tax). Don't you think that law enforcement agencies want to preserve their investments in cops by giving the best possible equipment for survival?

[OldMarksman]

What about the late Jim Cirillo of the NYPD Stakeout Unit?

20 gunfights, 11 perps kiled, although this is supposedly a conservative number since they didn't keep good records then as they would now, in over 250 stakeout encounters.

The handguns he carried into harms way were two S&W Model 10 .38s, a Colt Cobra and a Walther PPK .32ACP.

After he retired, he carried two Blocks.

[ftttu]

In reference to the discussion above, here is another anecdote. Two officers on my shift were trying to arrest two uncooperative car theft suspects. During the incident, the cover officer had his S&W Mod 19 revolver pointed at one of the suspects on the ground while the contact officer was on the ground wrestling with the guy trying to cuff him. For reasons I still don't know, the cover officer had the hammer cocked on his revolver, and he shot the contact officer in the leg. Of course, the cover officer had no intention of firing his weapon at the contact officer or the suspect.

I just ran into the one that was shot a couple of weeks ago at Lowe's, and he is still limping like Festus from Gun Smoke. He made it through intense combat in Viet Nam only to be shot by a fellow officer in the States.

My gun from the academy was a S&W 5906, and we were only able to carry them because the 2nd in charge of my agency, who actually ran everything, was out of town when the actual agency head approved semi-auto pistols against the standing wishes of the 2nd in charge. I probably would have been carrying a revolver for who knows how long if our agency head wasn't more forward thinking in the later '80s.

Also, do y'all revolver fanboys want our young men and women to carry revolvers on the battlefield over there in Crapastan? Do y'all want SEAL Team 6 to show up at their next mission again overwhelming odds carrying a revolver? I'm sure some of you do, but from my experience, a reliable semi-auto pistol which holds more ammo, is easier to reload under stress and won't go out of timing if dropped is the wiser choice.

[UncleEd]

SA1911,

It's a matter of lacking fire control with hi-caps. Have more, use more
and not effectively.

Years ago an officer in Hoffman Estates, IL, let got 15 rounds at
a suspect, hitting him three times, only once in the torso, at
close range. The rest of the rounds hit the ground or went
toward and into houses nearby.

When the NY Transit police first got their Glocks, they missed
a suspect completely but let loose around 30 rounds in a
subway.

A recent incident involved police surrounding suspects'
car and letting loose with dozens upon dozens of rounds
They hit a person inside an apartment and didn't touch
the bad guys.

Many more examples have been reported.

One thing to keep in mind is that police often aren't
all that good of shots and giving them more potential
to shoot doesn't improve matters.

Perhaps agencies need to keep file folders on lack of fire
control so that administrators, firearms trainers can see
better just what has gone on since the hi-caps were
introduced.

[UncleEd]

Ftttu,

One reason many police agencies required double action only
revolvers was to avoid the example you gave. Same thinking
went into making Sigs and Berettas DA only as well when the
hi-caps were being issued.

For that reason, I've known of a number of police agencies that
banned the single action 1911s. This happened in Chicago
years back when an officer tried to rap a suspect with his
pistol and ended up killing his partner. For years Chicago also
wouldn't OK the Glock because of its trigger mechanism.

And of course where the Glock has been authorized many times
the so-called New York trigger is required which is around I think
the weight of a DA revolver, 10 pounds or more.

Also, don't try to compare military needs with police needs although
I know the streets of America are often referred to as war zones.

[shurshot]

SA1911; Just my opinion, as I stated. Not trying to be "definitive". No need to be condescending guys. Carry what you will, I will do the same. You ask why LEO Agency's are picking semis? Ammo capacity is one reason, due to the fact that many recruits are NOT gun people, and often are very poor shots, only barely qualifying, 40 out of 50 in a man sized target at under 25 yards isn't very good shooting if you ask me. I know a kid with a wrist rocket slingshot who can outshoot many police officers I have seen shooting handguns. Seriously. It's pitiful. Many have never touched a firearm prior to being hired. Some, both male and female, are recoil sensitive and 9MM is easier for many to qualify with. Bigger magazines equal a greater chance that a piss poor shot makes a hit in a self defense situation. Hiring practices... well, thats another topic. Cost... semis are cheaper and easier to fix than revolvers, at least that's what the agency Firearms instructors all tell me. Drop in parts, minimal, if any fitting required, compared to six shooters. Rules, policys and equipment all have to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Remember, another reason for the current use of semiautomatic is that many recruits have "little hands" and the adjustable palm swells on some models allow easily fitting a single pistol to either a 90 pound petite, ex cheerleader female or a 300 pound ex defensive lineman. Remember, agencys are controlled by one driving force, as always... Money. The budget drives everything else, always has. Firearms manufacturers are in the business to sell guns and they often offer LEO Agency's attractive trade in value on older service weapons when they are traded in towards new equipment. Technology sells. Some wanted the latest and greatest model on the cover of the monthly gun magazine. Add in LEO Unions as a factor, which are constantly pushing policy and equipment that are tantamount towards "Officer safety" and the desire to stay as well armed as the criminals. Research the infamous Miami shootout in the mid 80's, this was a turning point and another reason many Department's switched over to pistols from revolvers. So Money, culture, poor shooting and more diverse hiring practices all factored into the mid 80's / early 90's LEO switch from wheelguns to pistols. And no FTTU, I don't think the military should use revolvers. Apple's and oranges. It's a slippery slope when one starts comparing the two. Do you desire to have your local police militarized? Should police wear helmets, carry grenades and drive around in tanks? Ask for your travel papers and frisk you at check points? Impose Martial law and suspend the Constitution in the name of "Public safety"? Most of us would hopefuly say no. Hey, I love all types of handguns, including semiautomatics. I just don't TRUST them, as I have observed far too many jams over my lifetime. Not trying to be definitive, just giving my observations and preferences. Carry what you trust my friends and train often. John Dillinger allegedly stated the phrase "there are two things in life you can't trust, the word of a District Attorney and Automatic pistols". Ask yourself, If the semiautomatic is so great and technologically advanced, why is there such a focus in LEO & tactical training on clearing jams, "tap n' rack", etc.? Because they jam!

[SA1911]

shurshot,

Don't be condescending.

Your:

"You ask why LEO Agency's are picking semis? Ammo capacity is one reason, due to the fact that many recruits are NOT gun people, and often are very poor shots, only barely qualifying, 40 out of 50 in a man sized target at under 25 yards isn't very good shooting if you ask me. I know a kid with a wrist rocket slingshot who can outshoot many police officers I have seen shooting handguns. Seriously. It's pitiful. Many have never touched a firearm prior to being hired. Some, both male and female, are recoil sensitive and 9MM is easier for many to qualify with."

is wholly unsubstantiated opinion that exposes your agenda.

You have no clue of which you write, and you'll make up stuff in prayer that it'll support your agenda.

Here's a huge clue for you: nearly every cop in America is a much better shot than you. Every single cop has to establish minimum proficiency with firearms or he doesn't pass minimum proficiency necessary for academy graduation. Moreover, cops have to demonstrate continued minimum proficiency with firearms during qualifications that are established by every states' law enforcement regulating agency; e.g., CA POST.

Finally, your crapola about 25 yards qualification is just that: made up crap. I can definitively tell you every law enforcement agency of which I'm aware shoot no farther than 15 yards during qualification. If you're shooting at 25 yards, you're target shooting, not tactically shooting.

Find something that you know and stick with it.

Let me write this again so as you'll understand it and hopefully disabuse you of your unsubstantiated assumptions: a good quality semi is more reliable than a good quality revolver. I've have revolvers fail. I've seen other revolvers fail. I have never, ever seen a good quality semi fail: EVER!!!

Welcome to the 21st century.

[SA1911]

Uncle_Ed,

Your,

"It's a matter of lacking fire control with hi-caps. Have more, use more
and not effectively."

Is your misinformed opinion.

There is nothing knowledge based than can be taken from your reciting accounts of officer involved shootings. In fact, all they contain is your opinion of what happened.

It would do you a world of good to subscribe to professional law enforcement journals.

[shurshot]

SA1911, Now you resort to a personal attacks and deny that any LEO's have to qualify over 15 yards? 15 yards on a night qual perhaps. Lol! You just outed yourself, bigtime. Most LEO qual courses are shot in various stages from 3 yards out to 18, 20 or 25, depending upon individual agency and State. Last I knew, the FBI qual was out to 25 in various stages. But you know this, right? Are you even an LEO? Mall security? Have YOU yourself ever shot an LEO qual course? You might want to research things a bit before stating "facts" and disparging others. You like semiautomatics and have some valid points, I give you that. I prefer revolvers for reasons I covered. Relax. We all have an opinion. Lol! No need to attack someone you don't know because they have a different perspective and possibly more experience than you. FYI; most of the time I shoot 49/50 or 49/49 when I qualify, not as good as some, but better than most I have shot with. Be safe and train well.